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best speakers under $500 that look nice, need no sub - Page 2

post #31 of 81
This stuff works really well, though a person does require a certain amount of wood working skill, patience and equipment to properly trim and finish a project. I suggest the OP check out the DIY section for home built subwoofers that imitate furniture, and meet the WAF criteria . Creative Sound Solutions.has some great sub kits with amps and instructions, and I am sure there are others as well that are available and could be modified to imitate furniture as long as the internal volume remains the same. Think end table or maybe a lamp stand.







Richard
Edited by Socketman - 6/16/13 at 5:38pm
post #32 of 81
Despite what has been said here, I have a couple of M22s for my L & R fronts in my HT that work exceedingly well for me (subjectively) with movie sound tracks - articulate and accurate with good power handling. Mind you I have a couple of 10" subs for the heavy lifting of the low end. I believe that most would agree that sub(s) are really necessary for a proper HT or some really big towers.

Interestingly, my Denon AVR's Audyssey repeatedly sets my M22s at 40 Hz so there is some decent bass extension being generated, at least in my medium size room...

TAM
post #33 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by ex-labdriver View Post

Despite what has been said here, I have a couple of M22s for my L & R fronts in my HT that work exceedingly well for me (subjectively) with movie sound tracks - articulate and accurate with good power handling. Mind you I have a couple of 10" subs for the heavy lifting of the low end. I believe that most would agree that sub(s) are really necessary for a proper HT or some really big towers.

Interestingly, my Denon AVR's Audyssey repeatedly sets my M22s at 40 Hz so there is some decent bass extension being generated, at least in my medium size room...

TAM


I second about Axiom's M-22's or M-60's (I know they are out of your price range the towers that is)just saying great speakers for the price IMO!! But you have to like their sound!!!
post #34 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by HalPri View Post

So now I am seeking recommendations for left and right speakers at around $500 for the pair. I will NOT have a sub (or any other speakers), so they should have reasonable bass. And they cannot be both large (floorstanding) and black. If they are floorstanding sized, they have to have some sort of wood grain, simulated is OK.

We mainly watch movies, but also listen to classical and jazz and rock. We listen at moderate volumes. We don't watch action movies much, and I don't need to hear all the details of the shots and explosions. My receiver is a Marantz, 50w/channel.

I currently have Advent 5012s, and they are OK, but I haven't been able to get them to sound as good as I'd like. I'm considering replacing them.

I was considering Axiom M22s. What else should I be looking at?

Had some Axiom M22s and the need a subwoofer for any significant output under 80hrz. The graph Axiom has posted shows they begin to roll off at 90hrz and by 50 or 60 have very little output.

The Arx A1b graph shows they are flat to 47hrz and then begin to roll off. The planar ribbon might be perfect for classical, the strings it reproduces is great and very airy and has great separation, kind of a on off.

If they were instock the Arx A3 towers would probably be what your looking for.

ShadyJ's recommendation on the HSU LCR or bookshelf would be good too. I had the HSU bookshelfs and while they didn't go as low as the Arxs they have great snappy and punchy bass where as the Arx just seem to give up the punchy bass for deeper bass.
post #35 of 81
Shame this happens so often. OP starts a thread > thread turns into a debate > arguments ensue > OP disappears >haters show up > fight breaks out > no one wins.
post #36 of 81
So I guess that the numerous setup runs with my Audyssey has proven to be wrong & has been wrong throughout the last year that I've owned my speakers. I don't think so.

It's evaluation of my L & R channels is fact, not opinion...

TAM
post #37 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by ex-labdriver View Post

Despite what has been said here, I have a couple of M22s for my L & R fronts in my HT that work exceedingly well for me (subjectively) with movie sound tracks - articulate and accurate with good power handling. Mind you I have a couple of 10" subs for the heavy lifting of the low end. I believe that most would agree that sub(s) are really necessary for a proper HT or some really big towers.

Interestingly, my Denon AVR's Audyssey repeatedly sets my M22s at 40 Hz so there is some decent bass extension being generated, at least in my medium size room...

TAM

Most avr's will set the main speakers large or full range, that does not mean your speakers extend that low...until you measure its pure speculation.
post #38 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socketman View Post

Shame this happens so often. OP starts a thread > thread turns into a debate > arguments ensue > OP disappears >haters show up > fight breaks out > no one wins.

Where did a fight break out? This is a open forum and the op asked for opinions...its the nature of the beast. Not everybody has the same opinion or experience. tongue.gif
post #39 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by 65 Electra Glide View Post

They bested the Sierra Ones overall a few years back in level-matched, double blind head to head comparison by a panel. http://www.affordableaudio.org/aa2007-10.pdf
It was found out later that the level matching device/method was flawed for this comparison. The signal was attenuated at the output end of the amplifier and not the input end. The attenuation device didn't even use an L-pad.
post #40 of 81
If I remember correctly, mine are all set to 'small' automatically. The only parameter that I recall changing was bumping up the XOver to 80 Hz. According to BatPig's Denon/Audyssey Guide:

'Audyssey applies filters down to the speakers’ measured anechoic F3 point (below which roll-off exceeds -3 dB). Audyssey reports the F3 point to the Audio/Video Receiver, and it determines where to set the crossover frequency'.

Right or wrong, that's why I assumed what I did.

BTW, tonight we just finished watching the spy thriller BD 'SALT' on our recently purchased Sony 55".HX850. IOHO, it was a great movie that was tremendously enhanced by a fine sound track that had just the right amount of everything, but not overdone. Thankfully, the CC dialogue was properly mixed that made it clear & understandable throughout, even 30 degrees off axis from our VP100 where my wife sits. All soundtracks should be mixed this well.

Subjectively speaking, our Axiom/Velodyne HT system acquitted itself superbly for a very enjoyable viewing experience. That's what it is all about.regardless of what brand or type of gear that you use...

TAM
post #41 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socketman View Post

Shame this happens so often. OP starts a thread > thread turns into a debate > arguments ensue > OP disappears >haters show up > fight breaks out > no one wins.

So because my post isn't a positive Axiom post that means the thread is breaking down into an arguement? Really? Just because you are a hater for anything but Axiom does mean the threads are pointless now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex-labdriver View Post

So I guess that the numerous setup runs with my Audyssey has proven to be wrong & has been wrong throughout the last year that I've owned my speakers. I don't think so.

It's evaluation of my L & R channels is fact, not opinion...

Audyssey always set my VP150 to 200hrz and M2 surrounds as full range. We all know the M2s are not full range speakers and are no where near being capable of 60hrz and under extension and we know the VP150 has deeper bass than 200hrz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Most avr's will set the main speakers large or full range, that does not mean your speakers extend that low...until you measure its pure speculation.

+1

Typical of Audyssey and other room correction software to not get the freq response right, but its adjustable. It sets all my Arx speakers to full range and I know they are not capable of full range. REW had my M22s sloping off at around 75hrz in room far from a bassy speaker.
post #42 of 81
I would recommend either the Mordaunt Short Carnival 6 towers, or the RTi8 towers from the Polk Ebay store. I feel both options would be great, though something to keep in mind is it will be easier to find matching Mordaunt Short speakers in the future as the RTi line is being phased out.
Edited by Transmaniacon - 6/17/13 at 6:56am
post #43 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by ex-labdriver View Post

If I remember correctly, mine are all set to 'small' automatically. The only parameter that I recall changing was bumping up the XOver to 80 Hz. According to BatPig's Denon/Audyssey Guide:

'Audyssey applies filters down to the speakers’ measured anechoic F3 point (below which roll-off exceeds -3 dB). Audyssey reports the F3 point to the Audio/Video Receiver, and it determines where to set the crossover frequency'.

Right or wrong, that's why I assumed what I did.

BTW, tonight we just finished watching the spy thriller BD 'SALT' on our recently purchased Sony 55".HX850. IOHO, it was a great movie that was tremendously enhanced by a fine sound track that had just the right amount of everything, but not overdone. Thankfully, the CC dialogue was properly mixed that made it clear & understandable throughout, even 30 degrees off axis from our VP100 where my wife sits. All soundtracks should be mixed this well.

Subjectively speaking, our Axiom/Velodyne HT system acquitted itself superbly for a very enjoyable viewing experience. That's what it is all about.regardless of what brand or type of gear that you use...

TAM

I dont doubt all your speakers can handle near full range settings at moderate volume levels...turn the system up to reference during some sub 40hz content and report back. Again Ypao sets all of my speakers large which, but I gurantee my RTI-4 surrounds are not capable of reproducing sub 40hz. will your speakers blow up, probably not since the crossover in the speaker will make the driver roll off those frequencies to protect it. However your losing headroom by sending those speakers frequencies they dont play.
post #44 of 81
post #45 of 81
Those are a great suggestion, but note the stands are an extra $120, and that Maple finish is $300 more.
post #46 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by adupree View Post

These are priced at $550, so a little over your budget.
http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php?p=swan-d2-1se%2B-stand-monitor&products_id=69&
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transmaniacon View Post

Those are a great suggestion, but note the stands are an extra $120, and that Maple finish is $300 more.

Really not that bad of a deal. Axiom M22s with same piano gloss finish, cast woofers and bi amp/bi wire inputs plus stands is $1250. So a speaker with that kind of finish and premium parts plus stand for under $600 is a damn good deal.
post #47 of 81
Well I am trying to recommend things that meet his budget, there are countless speakers that look wonderful if you spend more, but that's not going to help him...
post #48 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transmaniacon View Post

Those are a great suggestion, but note the stands are an extra $120, and that Maple finish is $300 more.

He can always build his own stands. Thats what I do, they are super easy and work great!
post #49 of 81
Just to review, from memory that is weak, here is Audyssey sees my system - I think, ha!:

M22s - Small 40 Hz (I manually bumped them up to 80 Hz);

VP100 - Small 80 Hz (left it there);

Qs4s - Small 80 Hz (left them there).

Volume Levels were all set to between -3 & -5 Db. Two Velo 10" Subs Vol set to -5 Db (the subs' amps Vol set at 2 of 10).

I regularly listen to movies at -10 Db with occasional quieter movie at -5 Db. If the wife gets annoyed, -15 Db.

This is a modest but nice, articulate system that brings us great enjoyment. It is most worthy of consideration & should not be automatically dismissed nor 'skipped'...

TAM
post #50 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

It was found out later that the level matching device/method was flawed for this comparison. The signal was attenuated at the output end of the amplifier and not the input end. The attenuation device didn't even use an L-pad.

Incorrect: Level matching inherently calls relative impedance into play, a circumstance the host of this event explained later. What's flawed is any analysis that doesn't include all the variables.
post #51 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Lane View Post

Incorrect: Level matching inherently calls relative impedance into play, a circumstance the host of this event explained later. What's flawed is any analysis that doesn't include all the variables.
The device used was flawed for level matching/speaker comparison purposes. The host knew nothing about the device and how it worked. He used it in blind faith. Not his fault as the people who made it for him should have known better.

The bottom line is, you don't attenuate the amplifier's output, that is the flaw. Any electrical/speaker engineer learn that earlier on in their education.

To make it simple, in this scenario using the flawed method, the speaker and amplifier do not "see" each other because there is an resistor between them. The level matching needs to be done at the preamp.

"A loudspeaker crossover is designed specifically to “see” a very specific impedance load, the load presented by the drivers. Adding series resistance changes that complex impedance load and the crossover no longer functions as it has been designed to. If we have an 8ohm rated loudspeaker and we add 4ohms of resistance, the loudspeaker now becomes a 12ohm loudspeaker yet the crossover components have been optimized for an 8ohm load."

In that comparison, the more efficient speakers required more attenuation/resistance, and faired worse.
Edited by cschang - 6/17/13 at 7:24pm
post #52 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

The device used was flawed for level matching/speaker comparison purposes.

The bottom line is, you don't attenuate the amplifier's output, that is the flaw. Any electrical/speaker engineer learn that earlier on in their education.

To make it simple, in this scenario using the flawed method, the speaker and amplifier do not "see" each other because there is an resistor between them. The level matching needs to be done at the preamp.

A full analysis of the circuit of each speaker under test, the output stage of Chase's amplifier, and the series R between each of the two may not support the point I think you want to see prevail, Curtis. It appears the the lower impedance load did not source the extra current anticipated here, and that would be consistent with this particular transformer coupled McIntosh amplifier (from memory - it's been a few years).

Whether a series R between a speaker or a speaker driver and an amplifier in general is audibly relevant during such a test is another matter of electrical and audio principle, but in this case I don't think it supports the point I think you want to see made either. For example, it's almost certain your speakers have power resistors inserted between their drivers and your amplifier attenuating at least a segment of their bandwidth. That is in the output circuit of your amplifier and not its line stage.
post #53 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Lane View Post

A full analysis of the circuit of each speaker under test, the output stage of Chase's amplifier, and the series R between each of the two may not support the point I think you want to see prevail, Curtis. It appears the the lower impedance load did not source the extra current anticipated here, and that would be consistent with this particular transformer coupled McIntosh amplifier (from memory - it's been a few years).

Whether a series R between a speaker or a speaker driver and an amplifier in general is audibly relevant during such a test is another matter of electrical and audio principle, but in this case I don't think it supports the point I think you want to see made either. For example, it's almost certain your speakers have power resistors inserted between their drivers and your amplifier attenuating at least a segment of their bandwidth. That is in the output circuit of your amplifier and not its line stage.
Jon...I added more to my post while you were typing this. Sorry.

Supporting my point isn't the issue...it is basic electrical engineering. You want to use Chase as an authority? He is a lightning rod for conflict/confrontation. That is a whole 'nother can of worms.

Your speaker may sound better, I am just pointing out the test was flawed.

Regardless, people should just listen for themselves.
post #54 of 81
Your edit reads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

"A loudspeaker crossover is designed specifically to “see” a very specific impedance load, the load presented by the drivers. Adding series resistance changes that complex impedance load and the crossover no longer functions as it has been designed to. If we have an 8ohm rated loudspeaker and we add 4ohms of resistance, the loudspeaker now becomes a 12ohm loudspeaker yet the crossover components have been optimized for an 8ohm load."

Resistances about the order of the system's drivers inserted between passive filters and their loads do indeed alter the operation of those filters. They are hard wired and not easily available for modification.

Resistances of a fraction of the speaker's impedance magnitude inserted between amplifiers of various output impedances and transfer functions - where output impedances may differ by an order of magnitude - do not to any such degree.
post #55 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Lane View Post

Your edit reads:
Resistances about the order of the system's drivers inserted between passive filters and their loads do indeed alter the operation of those filters. They're are hard wired and not easily available for modification.

Resistances of a fraction of the speaker's impedance magnitude inserted between amplifiers of various output impedances and transfer functions - where output impedances may differ by an order of magnitude - do not to any such degree.
In your opinion. That's fair.

Some think matching within .5 dB is important in comparisons.

Everyone, sorry for the thread derail.
post #56 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

In your opinion. That's fair.

Some think matching within .5 dB is important in comparisons.

Everyone, sorry for the thread derail.

Maybe in the opinion of some another model could have prevailed and spared us derailing this thread. wink.gif

I hear the difference between two adjacent values on the 5% R scale in complex treble circuits. (Or I think I do because that's how I tune.) Whether either of us can hear that 0.5r blind in series between amplifier and a loudspeaker we might not select is probably another matter.
post #57 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Lane View Post

Maybe in the opinion of some another model could have prevailed and spared us derailing this thread. wink.gif

I hear the difference between two adjacent values on the 5% R scale in complex treble circuits. (Or I think I do because that's how I tune.) Whether either of us can hear that 0.5r blind in series between amplifier and a loudspeaker we might not select is probably another matter.
Jon...you are using Chase's "words"...no one could verify or confirm what he said he did to level match. I certainly couldn't with the Acculine and 340 in two different rooms, but I don't expect you to believe me.
post #58 of 81
OP, OP, where are you? smile.gif

+1 to the Mordaunt Short Aviano and Focal options. $500 or less for an aesthetically pleasing pair of floorstanders is a tall order. Definitely check out the classified section here on AVs and also Audiogon or craigslist.
post #59 of 81
I have a pair of the Aviano and am very impressed!
post #60 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Jon...you are using Chase's "words"...no one could verify or confirm what he said he did to level match. I certainly couldn't with the Acculine and 340 in two different rooms, but I don't expect you to believe me.

As self-supporting as that is I think we can leave it at that.
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