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Theory About Intel's HDMI Quantization Range Setting (Full 0-255)

post #1 of 185
Thread Starter 
So as we all know, Intel has a setting in their iGPU control panel which allows you to select the quantization range (limited or full) that is most appropriate for you display.




But as we all know, this setting doesn't actually do anything for most people. It seems to always use limited 16-235 range and the control panel option doesn't stick - it reverts back from full to limited on its own.

I find it hard to believe Intel would have such a long-standing bug in their drivers so I did some digging through the HDMI/CEA861 specs. Based on the specs, a device connected through HDMI that is using one of the pre-defined HDTV modes (1080i, 720p, etc.) is required to send limited range. The HDMI device is only allowed to send full-range if the display's EDID includes a "Video Capability Block" that containins the "Quantization Range Selectable" flag. This flag tells the player (iGPU in this case) that your display can handle both limited and full-range input.

My theory is that Intel is very strict about following these standards and therefore ignores the control panel setting when it doesn't find the above flag in the EDID.

Since I don't own any displays that enable the "Quantization Range Selectable" flag, I can't test my theory. I was hoping some users in this forum could help out.

To test if your display has the correct flag, examine your EDID using Entech MonInfo utilty:

http://www.entechtaiwan.com/util/moninfo.shtm (download link on the left side of page).

1) Run the Monitor Asset Manager (MonInfo) utility.
2) Select your monitor under the Display IDs section on the left. Should also say [Real-time ...] next to all your connected displays.
3) On the right side you will now get an "Asset Information" display listing information about your monitor.
4) You can save the report to upload here or just copy/paste it.
5) Look for an area like this:

CE video capability data
CE scan behavior......... Supports overscan and underscan
IT scan behavior......... Always underscanned
PT scan behavior......... Supports overscan and underscan
RGB quantization range... Selectable (via AVI YQ)
YCC quantization range... Selectable (via AVI YQ)

If your display has the RGB quantization range listed as "Selectable (via AVI YQ)", please try to toggle the Intel control panel quantization range setting and see if it has any effect. Also close the control panel and check if the setting "sticks" or reverts back to "limited" when you reopen it.

Thanks.
Edited by Wizziwig - 6/16/13 at 2:23pm
post #2 of 185
IIRC "Quantization Range" has been completely removed from the driver's UI since June 2012 (version 8.15.10.2761).
Edited by renethx - 6/15/13 at 9:58pm
post #3 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

IIRC "Quantization Range" has been completely removed from the driver's UI since June 2012 (version 8.15.10.2761).

Right. I haven't seen it in a long time. I don't know exactly when it was removed, but that time sounds about right.
post #4 of 185
My Haswell has issues. I am getting 0-255 on my 26" Samsung monitor but only 16-235 on my 23" Samsung monitor on HDMI. It shows up as a digital TV over HDMI too..

I've messed with the settings without any luck so far.
post #5 of 185
I saw a thread in the Intel forums from one of the staff members that said this is fixed in a new beta driver. I know people have been complaining about it for over a year.
post #6 of 185
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

IIRC "Quantization Range" has been completely removed from the driver's UI since June 2012 (version 8.15.10.2761).

Really? I've been on old drivers because they at least allowed full-range HDMI with custom resolutions enabled. Didn't know they removed the option entirely. Probably did it so they don't get a ton of tech support requests from people who couldn't get it working.

Looks like it might be back if you look at this:
http://www.anandtech.com/Gallery/Album/2829#10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

My Haswell has issues. I am getting 0-255 on my 26" Samsung monitor but only 16-235 on my 23" Samsung monitor on HDMI. It shows up as a digital TV over HDMI too..

I've messed with the settings without any luck so far.

Can you post your MonInfo EDID log from the HDMI connected monitor?
post #7 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

Looks like it might be back if you look at this:
http://www.anandtech.com/Gallery/Album/2829#10

This is for "Input Range". Output range is always Limited-range RGB.
post #8 of 185
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

This is for "Input Range". Output range is always Limited-range RGB.

You're right. I missed that part. This is only for video playback and won't effect desktop color output at all.

Hmm.... I wonder if Intel maybe disabled or removed the option when your HDMI display doesn't have the "Quantization Range Selectable" flag. That would be a lot less confusing than having a non-working option like on older drivers.

We still need someone who has this flag available to test various flavors of Intel drivers to see if they even care about this flag.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

How do I do that ?

See first post of this thread. I added more detailed instructions for using the MonInfo tool.

FYI,

Looks like the latest Ivy Bridge and Haswell drivers are available here:
http://asder00.blogspot.de/2013/05/intel-hd-graphics-15.31.11.3186-audio-6.16.0.3106.html

Latest Sandy Bridge:
http://asder00.blogspot.it/2013/06/intel-hd-graphics-15.28.17.3190-audio-6.14.0.3097.html
post #9 of 185
I figured out how to fix my black level issue on my 4770k Intel machine.
post #10 of 185
seeing is believing
post #11 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Mitra View Post

seeing is believing

I added a GPU card wink.gif
post #12 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I added a GPU card wink.gif

Oh, I thought you moved to an AMD APU. smile.gif
post #13 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I added a GPU card wink.gif
That's cheating :-)
post #14 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Oh, I thought you moved to an AMD APU. smile.gif

I just reused my old AMD Radeon XFX 6870 X2 video card.
post #15 of 185
Just about to start setting up my new i3 w/ intel HD4000 as I've finally had enough with all the problems on my old AMD 240e and ATI5670 HTPC I built a few years ago.

This limited vs full range thing has always confused me since the day I first built an HTPC back in 2005 or 6! Can someone tell me briefly please what I should be setting and calibrating to get it all to work? From this thread and others I know the intels will only do limited range so I'll need to recalibrate.

Should I change my Denon amp from full to limited as well? How do I calibrate using eg DVE's HD Basics blu ray that I bought a few years back, as I understand it's all set up on the assumption you can see the BTB/WTW patterns which if I understand correctly I won't with the intel limited range RGB?

Any other help or pointers much appreciated!
post #16 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

My theory is that Intel is very strict about following these standards

actually, it sounds as if Intel is simply following the standard. There's no degree of following a standard; either one follows the standard, or one doesn't. There is no "strict" or "lax".

With respect to HDMI, what would you have Intel do? Not follow the standard?
post #17 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by adam1991 View Post

With respect to HDMI, what would you have Intel do? Not follow the standard?

Yes, please, so we could actually use it properly. smile.gif

Contrary to your believe, there is such a thing as "strict" standard following, and there is following the standard, but letting the user override, because there certainly are plenty users that would want/need to do this, and the other vendors allow this.
Of course you can argue that Intel did nothing wrong and its just following the standard, but at the end of the day, us people that need/want full range over HDMI will still buy another GPU to handle this (but Intel wouldn't care, since you most likely own their CPU with iGPU already anyway)
post #18 of 185
I'm in 100% agreement. Standards are intended as good defaults but rigid enforcement is simply a hindrance. That applies to just about any technical standard.
post #19 of 185
Does edid override help? I mean the old document from MS about .inf files, is that still valid?
post #20 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

I saw a thread in the Intel forums from one of the staff members that said this is fixed in a new beta driver. I know people have been complaining about it for over a year.

could you post a link to that thread? it was 2 month ago maybe something has changed...
post #21 of 185
It seems, setting the appropriate bit in the edid does work:
http://communities.intel.com/message/204275#204275
post #22 of 185
Yes I found the info for the EDID eeprom reprograming here:

https://sites.google.com/site/chrisbecke/home/edid-reprograming
I used moninfo to get the addres of the quantization bit and to correct the checksum.

Now i have full range if I connect my notebook directly to the TV, but conecting through my denon receiver i get limited range.

The Denon receiver dosn't respect the quantization bit from the TV.
post #23 of 185
Is this possible to do EDID OVERRIDE to change Quantization Range?
post #24 of 185
This guy claims to have got it going..
http://communities.intel.com/message/205031#205031

.. although a few posts above, he said it didn't work for the TV
Maybe he can enlighten us what exactly he did, and what works and what not (e.g. works for the avr, but not for the TV...)

Too bad I can't try myself right now, afk for a few weeks...
Edited by Robin Mitra - 9/6/13 at 9:02am
post #25 of 185
little guide:
0) with the projector/monitor connected
1) Download, install and excute http://www.entechtaiwan.com/util/moninfo.shtm
2) Make sure you have selectec display real time
3) Got to file, create inf. save as mon.inf
4) open mon.inf with notepad.
5) In the section HKR, EDID_OVERRIDE,"1", bla bla, find 0xE2, 0x00, 0x0F, change to 0xE2, 0x00, 0xCF, and save
6) Then go to Device Manager, Display and you should have 2 monitors, identify your projector, (properties, details, hardware id).
7) Then manually update the projector driver with the .inf (update driver, search driver in equipment, choose from a list, have disk, choose install aniway in the not signed driver prompt)
8) if everithing goes ok, reboot.
9) in intel driver properties change to full range

I also enabled in intel driver.
SDVOHDMI_SupportCEA861D,%REG_DWORD%, 1 ;To enable support for 861D spec, 1-Support IT Content and RGB Quantization, 0- No 861D support. Default to 0.
post #26 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by silooo View Post

little guide:
0) with the projector/monitor connected
1) Download, install and excute http://www.entechtaiwan.com/util/moninfo.shtm
2) Make sure you have selectec display real time
3) Got to file, create inf. save as mon.inf
4) open mon.inf with notepad.
5) In the section HKR, EDID_OVERRIDE,"1", bla bla, find 0xE2, 0x00, 0x0F, change to 0xE2, 0x00, 0xCF, and save
6) Then go to Device Manager, Display and you should have 2 monitors, identify your projector, (properties, details, hardware id).
7) Then manually update the projector driver with the .inf (update driver, search driver in equipment, choose from a list, have disk, choose install aniway in the not signed driver prompt)
8) if everithing goes ok, reboot.
9) in intel driver properties change to full range

I also enabled in intel driver.
SDVOHDMI_SupportCEA861D,%REG_DWORD%, 1 ;To enable support for 861D spec, 1-Support IT Content and RGB Quantization, 0- No 861D support. Default to 0.

thanks for guide, I have created inf file for my panasonic gt30, but in HKR, EDID_OVERRIDE,"1" section don't have these values 0xE2, 0x00, 0x0F
post #27 of 185
please post it here
post #28 of 185
It does annoy me that consumer gear almost always "just works" - but those of using HTPCs always end up in a world of hurt when it comes to 16-235 vs 0-255 video.

16-235 is a standard we've had, for very good reason, for over 30 years. Yet supporting it, and coping with it in 0-255 levelspace land, still seems to be a pain. This ISN'T rocket science, it's just following industry standards... It always appears as if 16-235 content support and/or output is horribly kludged.
post #29 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by silooo View Post

please post it here

I have sent you PM

thanks in advance
post #30 of 185
Robertos,

;Extension bloc #1, e.g., CEA-EXT, DID-EXT, etc.
HKR,EDID_OVERRIDE,"1",0x01,0x02,0x03,0x39,0x72,0x50,0x9F,0x90,0x14,0x05,0x20,0x13,0x04,0x12,0x03,0x11,0x02,0x16,0x07,0x15,0x06,0x01,0x23,0x09,0x07,0x01,0x78,0x03,0x0C,0x00,0x10,0x00,0xB8,0x26,0x2F,0xC0,0x0A,0x81,0x49,0xFF,0xFC,0x06,0x16,0x08,0x00,0x18,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00,0xE3,0x05,0x1F,0x01,0xE2,0x00,0xFF,0x01,0x1D,0x80,0xD0,0x72,0x1C,0x16,0x20,0x10,0x2C,0x25,0x80,0xBA,0x88,0x21,0x00,0x00,0x9E,0x01,0x1D,0x80,0x18,0x71,0x1C,0x16,0x20,0x58,0x2C,0x25,0x00,0xBA,0x88,0x21,0x00,0x00,0x9E,0x01,0x1D,0x00,0xBC,0x52,0xD0,0x1E,0x20,0xB8,0x28,0x55,0x40,0xBA,0x88,0x21,0x00,0x00,0x1E,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x2D
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