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IFA BERLIN 2013 : Gossip and live report from Germany - Page 8

post #211 of 241
Thread Starter 
After 6 hours of writing and collecting informations and pictures here is the resumee of my IFA 2013 TRIP smile.gif

Hope you are able to understand it with this google translation :

http://www.projection-homecinema.fr/2013/09/06/projecteurs-home-cinema-resume-de-lifa-berlin-2013/

http://translate.google.fr/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.projection-homecinema.fr%2F2013%2F09%2F06%2Fprojecteurs-home-cinema-resume-de-lifa-berlin-2013%2F
post #212 of 241
was there any appearances from runco or digital projection?
post #213 of 241
Thread Starter 
No.
post #214 of 241
thx
post #215 of 241
Thanks for the report Kraine!

Just reading it got me wondering: has the landscape for projector owners narrowed considerably over the past 8 years or so?
It seems to me that even around 6 years ago when I was first decided on a projector, the selection was really large, lots of DLPs, LCOS and LCD models. Now, unless I'm missing something, not so much. I can't remember the last time I walked into an AV store with a DLP projector
on display, for instance.

The projector market isn't dying, is it?
post #216 of 241
Thread Starter 
It´s a bad time for the projector market, you're right but I'm confident about the future when I see models like the VW500ES. smile.gif
post #217 of 241
Wonder why JVC is slacking on a true 4k projector? Maybe your right and it's not worth the R and D to develop a true 4K projector for a tiny market. Sony may be the last true innovator/savior of the HT market. JVC was due for a refresh of chassis this year but they seem to be just sitting back and letting Sony take over. JVC just coming with the typical BS hype like Improved Dynamic image. Every year it's the same improved dynamic range, higher ANSI fluff from JVC and it's always the same or actually drops as was the case with the first eshift machine which measured lower ANSI then the previous years model. Anyway, hopefully Cedia proves me wrong. It would be nice for some competition for Sony this year.
post #218 of 241
JVC is working on 4k wink.gif
post #219 of 241
Yeah its sad that HT projectors are sold in so few numbers. Companies wont pony up huge R&D for it. I think PJ technology improvements have slowed to a crawl over the last few years. Look at the change in cell phones from 4-5 years ago vs projectors. Heck, we got 4k two years ago and that is still the current top of the line model.
post #220 of 241
How much is the rumor about sony 1100 at cedia true?
Has this rumor come from some announcement at ifa?
post #221 of 241
Yes a bit of info was posted here, but then removed. Kraine says the info will be back for Cedia.

It wasnt anything to get too excited about. Seemed to amount to little more than adding HDMI 2.0 and RF 3D to the current 1000. I am really hoping there is more to come. At least more brightness / enhanced optical engine / lamp pulse 3d, whatever.
post #222 of 241
Thread Starter 
For those who hates to read the google automatic translation of my review from IFA, we have add a resume in video here :
post #223 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by kraine View Post

It´s a bad time for the projector market, you're right but I'm confident about the future when I see models like the VW500ES. smile.gif

I think its dying unless VR projectors comes out ....
while VR headset getting better ... ( rift, sony, ...etc )
the future is VR

One thing the projectors winning is the screen size !!
its like size VS quality
but with large TV getting 100+ -inch
not saying OLED or 4k but foldable OLED
the projectors market getting weak with the tech and setup expense
projector price + screen + lamp life
blackout
contras, lag, black level, ...etc VS larg TV

back again the future is VR projector if not the 100+ -inch TV taking off

am little sick of projector set up and i thing alot of just having a larg TV with one setup and you are free to use day and night no worries or PQ is my main concern .....
post #224 of 241
Cedia is less than three weeks away. I think both those wanting to upgrade their 1000Es and those that want to buy the rumored coming 1100ES will be very happy. What's that mean, much of what will be in the rumored new model will be included in the update. Not all but enough to make 1000ES owners VERY happy.
post #225 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

Yeah its sad that HT projectors are sold in so few numbers. Companies wont pony up huge R&D for it. I think PJ technology improvements have slowed to a crawl over the last few years. Look at the change in cell phones from 4-5 years ago vs projectors. Heck, we got 4k two years ago and that is still the current top of the line model.

That's sort of what I'm afraid of. That the pace of advancement in projection is slowing while the pace of advancement in flat screen TVs is advancing. I want a big image but also
want picture quality to keep advancing for projection: I don't want to have to feel too bummed out by looking at the quality available in the average dude's flat screen TV.
post #226 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by yyy484 View Post

I think its dying unless VR projectors comes out ....
while VR headset getting better ... ( rift, sony, ...etc )
the future is VR

One thing the projectors winning is the screen size !!
its like size VS quality
but with large TV getting 100+ -inch
not saying OLED or 4k but foldable OLED
the projectors market getting weak with the tech and setup expense
projector price + screen + lamp life
blackout
contras, lag, black level, ...etc VS larg TV

back again the future is VR projector if not the 100+ -inch TV taking off

am little sick of projector set up and i thing alot of just having a larg TV with one setup and you are free to use day and night no worries or PQ is my main concern .....

I think you're a little off in your assessment. For instance, I don't think there is a single LCD based flat panel that can rival the picture quality of most projectors. Even ones priced at $999. Most manufacturers are ditching plasma and that was really the only current technology that could rival the PQ of a good projector. OLEDs are starting to come out, but getting one that can match a projectors image size would cost as much as an average house.
post #227 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

That's sort of what I'm afraid of. That the pace of advancement in projection is slowing while the pace of advancement in flat screen TVs is advancing. I want a big image but also
want picture quality to keep advancing for projection: I don't want to have to feel too bummed out by looking at the quality available in the average dude's flat screen TV.

I have to believe that had they believed the market was there for lots of revenue, TI could have VASTLY improved DLP tech from where it was a few years ago. They basically just stopped R&D on it altogether, deeming the current DC4 chip as good as the market needed it to be. They have 4k now on the super high end, but that is intended for commercial cinemas and I would bet it doesn't see much improvement, either. I find it hard to believe that the contrast ratios gained from DC4 tech that is many years old now is as good as they could make it. The market must just not support it. Or they make enough off commercial and business DLP that is "good enough" that it doesn't make sense to spend any more money making it better. Its a shame.
post #228 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

I have to believe that had they believed the market was there for lots of revenue, TI could have VASTLY improved DLP tech from where it was a few years ago. They basically just stopped R&D on it altogether, deeming the current DC4 chip as good as the market needed it to be. They have 4k now on the super high end, but that is intended for commercial cinemas and I would bet it doesn't see much improvement, either. I find it hard to believe that the contrast ratios gained from DC4 tech that is many years old now is as good as they could make it. The market must just not support it. Or they make enough off commercial and business DLP that is "good enough" that it doesn't make sense to spend any more money making it better. Its a shame.

How do you know there's still a "vast" amount of improvement potential with DLP? Where are you getting this information from? I've never read anything stating that.
post #229 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I think you're a little off in your assessment. For instance, I don't think there is a single LCD based flat panel that can rival the picture quality of most projectors. Even ones priced at $999. Most manufacturers are ditching plasma and that was really the only current technology that could rival the PQ of a good projector. OLEDs are starting to come out, but getting one that can match a projectors image size would cost as much as an average house.

I don't have a dedicated theater... most people don't. I like 100++ inches in my living room for movies, but don't want a screen that large permanently in the room (blocking light from windows, etc.). I do not care if it is OLED, projector or some other tech... if it can fill the field of view I want at an appropriate viewing distance, looks good from the seats in my room, disappears when not in use, and costs less than $5K? I'm interested. Otherwise, I'll wait. So... if someone develops a 135" UHD OLED with ghost-free 3D that retracts into my ceiling for less than $5K? I'm interested. Until that time, a projector will be in my house. Even after that time, I have a feeling setting up the 135" OLED in the backyard (as I do with the projector) might involve a fair amount of risk that I'm not willing to take.

The problem with the whole 'flat panels are going to overtake projectors' argument is that the market for >100" anything is small... the economies of scale that have made 50" HDTVs dirt cheap don't apply. Look at current flat panel prices... <60" sets are a commodity at less than $1K... by the time you get to 80", the prices are generally over $4k. The market for huge screens is just not that big... independent of technology. currently, projectors are different because they only NEED to take up that space when your are watching. For flat panels to take over, they need to disappear as well (for the general masses). Huge flat panels may develop a niche in dedicated home theaters, but in that environment, the primary benefit of them (brightness) is wasted. I will be the first to buy an affordable, high quality, 'retractable' 135" OLED... I'm just not sure that day will ever come.
post #230 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

How do you know there's still a "vast" amount of improvement potential with DLP? Where are you getting this information from? I've never read anything stating that.


I don't. But I don't understand how MOST things are made, or come up with. My point is that most technologies we use are still evolving... and in almost all industries, quite rapidly. DLP has been VERY stagnant for a long time. Maybe they just hit the wall years ago.
post #231 of 241
Thread Starter 
So IFA 2013 belong to the past now for me. See you next year for IFA 2014 smile.gif
post #232 of 241
Thank you so much from all of us. I think however the IFA 2013 Berlin show for us could have been called The Sony VPL-vw500ES 2013 Berlin Show!
post #233 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

That's sort of what I'm afraid of. That the pace of advancement in projection is slowing while the pace of advancement in flat screen TVs is advancing. I want a big image but also
want picture quality to keep advancing for projection: I don't want to have to feel too bummed out by looking at the quality available in the average dude's flat screen TV.

Has it really slowed that much though? It seems to me that for most of the history digital home theater front projection development has been relatively slow. Just thinking back, for a long time projectors were really expensive, but also really low resolution and pretty low quality (except CRT). Improvements were (I assume) slow and small. For the past few years improvements have been slow and small. There are really three exceptions to that slow development I can think of.

The contrast breakthrough from JVC with the RS1, when they (IIRC) introduced wire grid polarizers. It seems to me this was an "invention" for lack of a better term, not a developmental/process/product improvement, it was something completely new and those sorts of things don't happen that often. I mean outside of the RS1 which had maybe a 10x advance in contrast, both before and after that what's the average improvement in contrast 20%?

The resolution race, but that was, IMO, almost entirely driven by the change from SD to HD media. This wasn't something hard to do (engineering wise) but is again, a rare occurance to change an entire industry infrastructure.

Then there was the price race, not really sure what caused that, but it could just come down to companies realizing they could make front projectors for "commodity" pricing and gain some market share.

So I guess I ask, is the pace really slowing, when looking back over the long term, or is it just settling back down to it's natural pace after a few years of an advancement "bubble" driven by some uncommon market changes and rare flashes of invention? What sort of advancement do we expect? RS1 like jumps of contrast every year?

I've sort of got the same question/thought about flat panels, in what way are they advancing faster? For a long time they weren't compelling to me, I couldn't find anything that produced decent quality. Then (much like JVC with the RS1) Pioneer created the Kuro, which was a market changer. Unfortunately for me, for a secondary display they were always priced too high. Oddly it's been many years for other manufacturers to even approach parity with that tech again since Pioneer EOL'd the Kuro. On the LCD side, there was the switch to LED which is what seems to have been the big jump in quality there (I finally got a flat panel when I saw one of the first Samsung LEDs produce an acceptable picture), but since then, what's really changed? Incremental improvements each year.

I guess what I'm saying is I think we got spoiled by the pace of development during the transition from SD to HD and the few true innovations (wire grid polarizers) and development of them, but I don't think it's realistic to expect that pace of development to continue indefinitely (as much as I'd love to see such improvements every year).
post #234 of 241
Kraine or anyone else attending IFA -

Did you attend the HDMI organization press briefing on HDMI 2.0 (Friday at noon) , or did you get feedback from someone else that did? Their press release provided no details for such characteristics as maximum bit depth supported for 4K at 24Hz, 50Hz, 60Hz, is 4K 3D supported and if so at what frame rates and at what bit depth, are higher frame rates supported for 1080p 2D and 3D?
post #235 of 241
Yeah of course the RS1 was a big game changer.. and I agree there was a flurry of advancements for a couple of years, but while other technological industries have kept up, or are still accelerating, PJs have slowed down drastically. LED looked like a promising technology but that has been a few years now since it was introduced as a viable and working alternative to bulb projectors, especially DLP units that could eliminate a color wheel, but still we see very little from any manufacturer. Maybe some of this will ramp up soon. Just seems to me that there are very few developments worth getting excited about. I also find it odd that this is one industry where you cant really just go out and "buy the best". Even if you had $100k to spend, you would buy a nice high end DLP, but your black level wont be close to a $4k JVC. Just seems funny to me. Like there is something out there keeping the companies from really trying to put their best foot forward. That being said, kudos to Sony for pushing 4k. Whether or not someone thinks its needed RIGHT NOW, it certainly is a leap forward at least in one parameter, and without sacrificing any others.
post #236 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

Yeah of course the RS1 was a big game changer.. and I agree there was a flurry of advancements for a couple of years, but while other technological industries have kept up, or are still accelerating, PJs have slowed down drastically. LED looked like a promising technology but that has been a few years now since it was introduced as a viable and working alternative to bulb projectors, especially DLP units that could eliminate a color wheel, but still we see very little from any manufacturer. Maybe some of this will ramp up soon. Just seems to me that there are very few developments worth getting excited about. I also find it odd that this is one industry where you cant really just go out and "buy the best". Even if you had $100k to spend, you would buy a nice high end DLP, but your black level wont be close to a $4k JVC. Just seems funny to me. Like there is something out there keeping the companies from really trying to put their best foot forward. That being said, kudos to Sony for pushing 4k. Whether or not someone thinks its needed RIGHT NOW, it certainly is a leap forward at least in one parameter, and without sacrificing any others.

I wonder why there are not more LED projectors on the market. Laser projectors sound good because they can put out more light than a LED projector. However, not all HT need 2000+ lumens, just a slowly degrading light source. I know if JVC came out with a LED projector that calibrates to 700 lumens for 50,000+ hours, many would sell. Seems like Sony is going to be making laser projectors, thats nice, hopefully they are affordable.
post #237 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I think you're a little off in your assessment. For instance, I don't think there is a single LCD based flat panel that can rival the picture quality of most projectors. Even ones priced at $999. Most manufacturers are ditching plasma and that was really the only current technology that could rival the PQ of a good projector. OLEDs are starting to come out, but getting one that can match a projectors image size would cost as much as an average house.

first of all we are talking about the future .. and why projector market is tiny .. while projector tech moving slow and TV panel getting better and bigger ( for hometheater PJ user the size 80" to 120" at most )

if we talk about the price and size and quality think about 3 years from now, how OLED will get better cheaper bigger ...
I used to be projectors fan but after flat panels getting bigger and how it performs in terms of PQ with PJ setup
am off with plug and play .. and its happening with my friends to switch for the case of size and PQ
and that alone goes for most consumers in the next 3/5 years leaving PJ market even more tiny !!

thats the way i see it besides the VR will take over next couple of years and its happening already ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7I7JuQXttw
and the future of flex OLED just very close ( LG and sumsong smart phone on the corner at the end of this year )
just imagine what are the possibility of flexible OLED in our life it can shake ... ( your walls or windows can change every time we look at it )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBYc20bB6LI

anyway we can enjoy what we have now and let the future alone for its time and the tech never end up here

THANKS
post #238 of 241
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grifo View Post

How much is the rumor about sony 1100 at cedia true?
Has this rumor come from some announcement at ifa?

Have faith and wait wink.gif
post #239 of 241
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Thank you so much from all of us. I think however the IFA 2013 Berlin show for us could have been called The Sony VPL-vw500ES 2013 Berlin Show!

In projection domain you're totally right. smile.gif
post #240 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by kraine View Post

Have faith and wait wink.gif

Wait wait;) thank you so much
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