or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › DIY Speakers and Subs › Anyone know a good plan for a nice PA speaker for outdoor music/party ??? Can I REHAB these ????
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Anyone know a good plan for a nice PA speaker for outdoor music/party ??? Can I REHAB these ???? - Page 2

post #31 of 72
Thread Starter 
So basically the next step up is to replace the woofer with something like the JBL- and keep the tweeter the same ? Then if I wanted to upgrade the tweeter it's even more money...

Is it worth it to upgrade to something like the JBL from what the kit already suggests? (noticeable in real life?)

I'll have to take some word on this stuff and jump in with a leap of faith like many have. It seems it's worth it.
post #32 of 72

Mfuisck, look into a rental for a one time use.  We have small systems but other companies have larger systems ands then rental is not that expensive depending what your needs are.  If for more than a one time use, DIY is probably the most cost effective.

post #33 of 72
Wayne Parham (Pi Speakers) has a pretty good discussion of the benefits of upgraded speaker components.

http://audioroundtable.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&goto=66779#msg_66779

Lots of other good stuff there.

My suggestion is to start with the best components your budget will allow and plan to keep them for many years.

Keep in mind the even the more affordable Eminence drivers used in some of the kits are better drivers than what you will find in most commercial offerings.
post #34 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL View Post

Mfuisck, look into a rental for a one time use.  We have small systems but other companies have larger systems ands then rental is not that expensive depending what your needs are.  If for more than a one time use, DIY is probably the most cost effective.

Good advice. How you been ?

Yes this is more than 1 time use. I've got a crown amp (400x2) and some crappy NADY brand 15" plus horn speakers I've been using for about 10 years and the speakers are pretty banged up. One of the horns needs replacing - it works but its very abrasive and crunchy. The other tweeter already blew out and I replaced with a crappy one from parts Express. It barely sounds much better.

These are personal use speakers ill own for a while.

I'd also like to get my feet wet building speakers before my theater build starts later this summer. Call this project "practice". smile.gif

My dad and brother borrow them from time to time but that's the extent. Mostly for parties or outdoor music. It's by no means professional - but using a house speaker isn't usually a good idea. I keep them in the basement with my guitar amps and drums and use them as PA speakers - but it's inside my house do they don't get abused bad anymore. ( not since I'm married anyways smile.gif )
post #35 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mobeer4don View Post

Wayne Parham (Pi Speakers) has a pretty good discussion of the benefits of upgraded speaker components.

http://audioroundtable.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&goto=66779#msg_66779

Lots of other good stuff there.

My suggestion is to start with the best components your budget will allow and plan to keep them for many years.

Keep in mind the even the more affordable Eminence drivers used in some of the kits are better drivers than what you will find in most commercial offerings.

Thanks for great reply!
post #36 of 72
Thread Starter 
The more I look the more the "cheap thrill" looks like a winner.

Anyone with experience : could you explain the real world difference if I went a level up ?
post #37 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

The more I look the more the "cheap thrill" looks like a winner.

Anyone with experience : could you explain the real world difference if I went a level up ?

I would be interested in that as well. The Parts Express deal on the $50 Celestions expires Sunday, June 30th.
post #38 of 72
i'll take a stab at this one.

generally, as you go up in price with most all pro-audio drivers
what you get is more spl, less distortion, or both.

to increase spl, you need more power handling, so larger coils.

in order to maintain the same level of control of a larger coil,
you need larger magnets and larger top plates, particularly
if you want a small ported portable enclosure.

in order to keep power compression down while increasing spl,
you have to keep the motor cool, so you need fancy cooling.

in order to keep distortion down, while sending a lot of current
through the motor, you need inductance control methods such
as shorting rings or sleeves.

if you want to do all this and keep it as light as possible,
you need to use lighweight magnets that are more expensive.

so a cheap driver, that can still sound decent at low level,
will have a small coil, small magnet, no cooling, no
inductance control, and no neodymium magnets.

a driver designed for maximum blasting quality portable music
will have a large coil, large magnet, extensive cooling,
extensive inductance control, and neodymium magnets.



some pro drivers employ methods used to reduce distortion.
this reduces listener fatique over extended periods of time.
not something that you can pick out in an a-b comparo.
just a benefit of low distortion that can be realized even
if you aren't going for max spl.

the only downside is that high power drivers *tend* to have
stiffer suspensions, so the drivers are less likely to be
damaged. this can hurt micro-dynamics and/or low level listening
a bit, so there are some tradeoffs depending on what you are
trying to optimize.
post #39 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

i'll take a stab at this one.

generally, as you go up in price with most all pro-audio drivers
what you get is more spl, less distortion, or both.

to increase spl, you need more power handling, so larger coils.

in order to maintain the same level of control of a larger coil,
you need larger magnets and larger top plates, particularly
if you want a small ported portable enclosure.

in order to keep power compression down while increasing spl,
you have to keep the motor cool, so you need fancy cooling.

in order to keep distortion down, while sending a lot of current
through the motor, you need inductance control methods such
as shorting rings or sleeves.

if you want to do all this and keep it as light as possible,
you need to use lighweight magnets that are more expensive.

so a cheap driver, that can still sound decent at low level,
will have a small coil, small magnet, no cooling, no
inductance control, and no neodymium magnets.

a driver designed for maximum blasting quality portable music
will have a large coil, large magnet, extensive cooling,
extensive inductance control, and neodymium magnets.



some pro drivers employ methods used to reduce distortion.
this reduces listener fatique over extended periods of time.
not something that you can pick out in an a-b comparo.
just a benefit of low distortion that can be realized even
if you aren't going for max spl.

the only downside is that high power drivers *tend* to have
stiffer suspensions, so the drivers are less likely to be
damaged. this can hurt micro-dynamics and/or low level listening
a bit, so there are some tradeoffs depending on what you are
trying to optimize.

WOW. Strong post is strong ^

Thanks !!

So basically a well designed decent high value speaker can sound as good... it just can't sound as good as loud biggrin.gif

Thanks for this reply.

Any advice on something better than a cheap thrill ?
post #40 of 72
Thread Starter 
I put my project on hold and now I kinda wish I jumped on the cheap thrill build.

Anyone have a good alternative ?
post #41 of 72
"I put my project on hold and now I kinda wish I jumped on the cheap thrill build.

Anyone have a good alternative ?"

nature abhors a vacuum. i'm sure something will come along soon enough...
post #42 of 72
Thread Starter 
It's just basically the driver that's not available right ?

hmmm...

Maybe I should try and rehab these 15" NADY PA speakers I have with new tweets. They sound harsh and the tweeters are shot I think

I will research and report back
post #43 of 72
I'm interested in this as well. I can then return my "wides" back to my living room. smile.gif

James
post #44 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

I'm interested in this as well. I can then return my "wides" back to my living room. smile.gif

James

I still want to do a DIY project... and I need a good garage speaker. I should have jumped on the cheap thrill when I had the chance.
post #45 of 72
Thread Starter 
OK I need some help then,

I have these:

http://www.nady.com/manuals/audio/pts1015.pdf




I need to replace the tweeters. Anyone have a good suggestion ? Am I wrong in thinking if I chose something that had a relatively low Freq Response for a tweet I probably would be ok with it ?

The tweeters now are shot. I would like them to at least sound good (if possible )
post #46 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

OK I need some help then,

I have these:

http://www.nady.com/manuals/audio/pts1015.pdf




I need to replace the tweeters. Anyone have a good suggestion ? Am I wrong in thinking if I chose something that had a relatively low Freq Response for a tweet I probably would be ok with it ?

The tweeters now are shot. I would like them to at least sound good (if possible )


http://www.diysoundgroup.com/compression-drivers/dna-150.html


You guys think I could just slap something like that into them as a replacement ?
post #47 of 72
It's been a while since I bought them but I picked up a pair of JBL SR4732As for (from memory) around $500. I still crank'em up now and then, used over a pair of SR4719X subs. With all the amps and stuff I think I have around $3k into the system. Cranks out pretty good,
post #48 of 72
Thread Starter 
I think I would rather make something myself DIY that sounds a little better but might not play quite as loud.
post #49 of 72
I'll be building an outdoor speaker soon using the cheap thrill design and probably getting a dayton 15" sub for the low end. I'm putting it on a dolly or putting some wheels on it to roll around. My wife saw me building some CT speakers for the HT and said she wanted me to build her an outdoor speaker so good thing I bought a spare celestion woofer. Since the buyout celestions are sold out I would go with the SEOS Karma 15 (which is basically the same speaker as the CT) or the Fusion 15.
post #50 of 72
Thread Starter 
I wish I could go cheap thrill now frown.gif

The price was right. The replace driver is double the price which isn't bad. But isn't good either. The big question mark is if I can even use it as a direct replacement.

I guess I'll keep looking .. Considering Alpha 8 Minion. I like the smaller size for work shop and moving around. I also plan to run a sub. Thoughts?
post #51 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I think I would rather make something myself DIY that sounds a little better but might not play quite as loud.

There's always better but it sounds pretty decent with a little tuning...and, yes, loud if you want it to be. Doesn't have to be loud to sound decent either.
post #52 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

There's always better but it sounds pretty decent with a little tuning...and, yes, loud if you want it to be. Doesn't have to be loud to sound decent either.


You are talking about the Cheap Thrill ?
post #53 of 72
No, about the JBL stuff I have in my garage party system.
post #54 of 72
You could attempt to add the Karma 15 top end onto the NADY...except use an adjustable L-pad ewave style. Worst case scenario is you hate it and have to bite the bullet and replace the NADY 15 with the Celestion to complete the Fusion 15.

Open up the NADY and see what you have for a crossover. My guess is the woofer runs full range....
post #55 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mobeer4don View Post

You could attempt to add the Karma 15 top end onto the NADY...except use an adjustable L-pad ewave style. Worst case scenario is you hate it and have to bite the bullet and replace the NADY 15 with the Celestion to complete the Fusion 15.

Open up the NADY and see what you have for a crossover. My guess is the woofer runs full range....


Thanks for reply.

How could I tell the crossover ? You are talking about the DNA 360 ???

Ill open it up tonight and post a picture
post #56 of 72
Just follow the wires to the drivers and look for the crossover components. Maybe they are part of the terminal cup on the rear of the speaker cabinet. Peizo tweeters don't need much for a crossover....maybe only a resistor? Start digging and you will begin to see the differences are on the inside. The SEOS kits use much better components than low level pro gear.

I meant you would replace the existing horn, HF driver, and crossover (if any) with the SEOS 12, DNA 350/360, and crossover (with adjustable L-pad) for the Fusion 15. Basically you keep the old woofer and cabinet and replace everything else. There are much cheaper options for getting the NADY tweeter replaced (like another piezo tweeter) but you know you want the Fusion 15 and this gets you half-way there wink.gif
post #57 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mobeer4don View Post

Just follow the wires to the drivers and look for the crossover components. Maybe they are part of the terminal cup on the rear of the speaker cabinet. Peizo tweeters don't need much for a crossover....maybe only a resistor? Start digging and you will begin to see the differences are on the inside. The SEOS kits use much better components than low level pro gear.

I meant you would replace the existing horn, HF driver, and crossover (if any) with the SEOS 12, DNA 350/360, and crossover (with adjustable L-pad) for the Fusion 15. Basically you keep the old woofer and cabinet and replace everything else. There are much cheaper options for getting the NADY tweeter replaced (like another piezo tweeter) but you know you want the Fusion 15 and this gets you half-way there wink.gif

damn you! biggrin.gif This is so what I want tongue.gif

I am about to go rip this bad boy open. I will post up some pictures for advice.

Thanks!
post #58 of 72
Thread Starter 
So here is what I found:


















I actually have a single 12" NADY too... which uses the same tweeter.

I replaced some of these tweeters once before when they blew (I played my guitar processor threw them at jam levels with live drums). I just order some cheapo PE parts, which looked identical OEM to what I took out.

My biggest issue with these speakers is the tweeters are decidedly very bad. They use cheap parts and they sound cheap. I would love to upgrade them to something like a DNA360 (if it would work) or like.

Any suggestions ?

Worth it? I could always make a full 15" later and remove the tweeter, replacing it with the stock (which I set up an RMA for replacement)




What to do about the crossover ? Can I just use what is there?

Or is something like these an easy option ?

http://www.parts-express.com/term/clearance_center_factory_buyouts?pg=1

I see lots of crossovers build into the banana plug plates... all on closeout (cheap enough)


I think originally I replaced them with something just like this:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=292-448

For $2.47 I am sure it's not great- but I believe this is nearly identical to what came stock.

I wonder if it's even worth rehabing these speakers or not ?? Perhaps just start fresh and build new ?

Options ? Suggestions ?

I set up an RMA for NADY but the shipping back is more than these things cost new mad.gif You think they would just send me a pair.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=292-450&scqty=1

This appears to be the OEM ^

It's $4.88 lol

You think I could just replace it with something like this JBL ?

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-225
or this:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-270&scqty=1

Whats a high value upgrade ? or should I just start over or start new ? Opinions ?

I am tempted to get the DNA360 as suggested above and try that - It looks like it goes down to 1k or possibly even 800hz (the stock appears to spec at that ) I am just not sure if the crossover already in the speaker would allow me to just drop it in and sound good, without damage to the speaker. ???? Or if I would need to replace crossover ??

Advice ?
post #59 of 72
Thread Starter 
Well that went over like a fart in church ^

lol biggrin.gif

Update: I sent back the tweeters to the MFG who replaced them with new ones under warranty. I now have a working speaker again. Problem is it still sounds crappy. So I am still looking to build a better sounding stereo pair, I will continue to use these for what I have (nothing) or sometimes my guitar processor or outdoor party sound.

I think I want to build a stereo pair anyways and I need some help. I have some SEOS and DIYsoundgroup related questions I hope you can help me with.

I'm in the processing of choosing a design and doing a stereo pair build for my garage workshop and outdoor parties. I am starting a theater project and home remodel soon so these will likely get used for sound either in my workshop and garage or moved into the project area (whole second floor frame up remodel) or my theater.

I am looking for something with good output for parties, and such. I tend to crank it up when I working to hear it well over drills, saws etc.. and because like to rock out biggrin.gif. I have a subwoofer (dual 15" ported) running off a crown 402 (old XLR model) so bottom end extension is less important to me. Size and looks of the speaker and cabinet do not matter much at all. I would like something that has good output, good sound, and good value. This is being built to be used, and will get used. It will get beat on, moved around etc. I don't care if it get's chipped finish, or a little sawdust or paint or spackle on them. But as such I don't want to go with a $1000 build. My budget is probably $200-$300 or even possibly $400 but I am flexible on this all. It's more a matter of value, and how much do I want to invest into this. If I could get a bunch more sound and output for a little more $ I would consider it, but if it's really small I would save the cash.

My goals:
-My first try DIY speaker project (Learn, make mistakes, gain experience on a project that would allow for such)
-Very high value
-Good sound and output.

I am having a problem understanding the differences between a Karma, Fusion, Alpha Minion etc. I understand they have different designers and use different parts but what I do not understand is what the difference in those parts is or the difference in the results of the kits. Looking for some good advice!

The Karma 8 looks like a winner. It uses the 8" Celestion for $49 which seems reasonable - and a cheaper tweeter. The price is in my budget area. But I have no clue how it sounds, how loud it plays etc..

What I really want to try to understand is exactly what do I get if I spend a little more. For Example the Alpha 8 Minion uses a higher quality B&C driver for $108 right ? So I assume there is something there, but I have trouble understanding it. Also uses the DNA205 tweeter- so again I assume something there too. Just don't really understand what it is. Am I right in thinking that the extra cost of the Alpha 8 Minion gives you more output and better sound ? If so- that seems legit for my purpose. But is it too much ? My understanding is the Alpha 8 has more output right ?

So how does that compare to a like priced Karma 12 ?? The Karma 12 looks like a good option for me too - it uses an affordable Eminence Delta-12A 12" Driver 8 Ohm for $79. Cheaper than the 8" from the Alpha. And it uses the DNA350. Am I right in assuming the 12" might have about the same output for about the same cost by having a bigger driver and tweeter ? How does the Karma 12 compare to the Alpha Minion ? What's better about each and why ?

Then again I could step up to a better larger kit like the "PRO" version of the drive the Eminence Delta Pro-12A 12" for $135 and a DNA360. Am I right in again thinking the better PRO driver and the better 360 tweeter will give better sound? Or louder?

Someone help me pick a sub $400 pair I can use for outdoor parties, and workshop and general sound. I'd like to do a project, but since this is not my main speaker or theater project I don't want to break the bank just yet. I am looking for some good advice and value. Thoughts? Advice?

Or should I consider just upgrading the what I have since the tweeter is just poor quality and cheap, but the cabinet is great; I am assuming something like a DNA360 would dig down deep enough to blend up with the 15" driver in the speakers. So I am also considering purchasing the DNA360 and/or a SEOS12 waveguide and Frankenstien upgrade my existing PA speakers (with crappy tweeters stock) as a hold over to save my costs. My intention would be to purchase and build at a later (soon) date a better 12" or 15" kit that uses the DNA360 and transplant them with the new crossover, cabinet, and driver. I am curious if the results would be good or not- and if not I would put mine back together and just do the whole kit.

Worth doing a whole kit versus just buying a SEOS12 waveguide and DNA360 and using my existing 15" PA speaker with bad tweeters and Frankenstein upgrade it ? I am not sure if Erich would even sell just the DNA360 without a full kit ? Or just doing a cheaper kit and keeping mine as they are ?
post #60 of 72
Why not just go with a Fusion-8 or Alpha-8 kit?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: DIY Speakers and Subs
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › DIY Speakers and Subs › Anyone know a good plan for a nice PA speaker for outdoor music/party ??? Can I REHAB these ????