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1 inch CD Comparison (SEOS18) - Page 5

post #121 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Well, even if it behaves like an IB, 24db/oct will still suppress excursion very quickly.

Ill play in winisd and see what I can generate to show what I mean. Graphs help everyone learn. And maybe I'm wrong wink.gif

That would be good, excursion plot will tell all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rahula7 View Post

Side-wall reflections actually add spaciousness and shouldn't be absorbed.

Only if the wall is far enough from the speaker so that there's enough delay; otherwise imaging is impaired.
post #122 of 201
Noah, winisd won't do Linkwitz Riley other than 4th order and I can't figure out how to do overlays. Regardless, using Butterworth slopes I was able to show myself in WidISD that I'm correct. The peak excursion increses with higher order slopes.

Again, this is for XOers below resonance.
post #123 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

Here is another possibility:

8 of the Peerless 830656 in an MTM config around the SEOS-24 http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-1078
Use those from about 120hz-600hz and setup the 18" to handle 40-200hz but as a flanking sub so you can smooth that region.

There are a number of 5-6" mids that will work, it just depends on budget. The advantage to using 8 smaller drivers is three fold. First you will get some horizontal directivity control. Second, they will barely be taxed and should see virtually no excursion. Third, their breakup will be so far out of range it will have zero audible effect.

The best overall value option for CD is probably the BMS 4594/4593. Still not cheap, but less expensive than the Beryllium options. If you want to spend a bit more and want Beryllium, you can do the Radian 951PB with a Truextent diaphragm for around $850/driver. On the "budget" side 18Sound ND1460A's will get you to around 700-800hz...maybe 600hz but I only know of Paul W using them down to 750hz in his Raptors. The BMS and Radian can play down to 500-600hz.

Was looking at this driver the other day. I read that someone people stated the 1460 at some roll off on the highs but the 1480 did not. Or 1480 did not roll off as much. I was looking at the 1460A, 1480, and 1480N. BMS4594 is nice but beyond my budget along with the 951.frown.gif
post #124 of 201
Thread Starter 
Upon Erich's request, I have changed the graphs and text in the first few posts to say that it's the 350, not 360. It was a genuine mistake and I never intended to purposely misrepresent the DNA360 performance.

Erich, we cool?
post #125 of 201
How capable or crummy lol would a quad of either the eminence Delta Pro 12a or Delta 10s be? 2 above the horn 2 beneath, sensitivity would be 105/104, both are used in two way kits so no problem going up to meet any number of CDs and I'm thinking very capable midbass.
post #126 of 201
Having used the delta 10a and 10b, it would be amazing crossed at 650hz. The low end struggles below 70hz though.
post #127 of 201
I'm stacked on the lfe front so to be able to cross at 80hz without issue would be great. 1 cubic foot ported per 10 like the fusion max, or?
post #128 of 201
Yup. An honest 104db!

Don't most of the SEOS 24 users go for AE, Faital Pro, JBL, etc?
post #129 of 201
Well I have jbl 2242s as well as td 15x but i'm almost looking at the form factor here. I'm not hung up on any particular brand just good performance.
post #130 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

It could work, but in my experience, doing passive anywhere under 800hz get very annoying dealing with the big impedance peaks. Active is the much better way to go when you get close to the driver Fs (for both mid and woofer). I think Max's idea is great, but I just don't think I'd bother with the added complexity. I guess it would have some advantages over skipping the mids. It would have a very uniform vertical polar pattern. It would have directivity control in the vertical direction also. I'm not so sure how the horizontal patter would turn out. And there would be less strain on the tweeter and woofer.

Yeah, you can do passive with nearly anything, but I wouldn't use full passive for something like this. For starters, the cost is likely fairly close to DSP when trying to implement crossovers below ~800khz. You also have a harder time measuring and simulating that region which lends itself to using DSP. Finally, the additional cost of DSP becomes a smaller portion of the overall cost when dealing with a horn/CD combo that is 5-10x the cost of the 1" horn/CDs. At a minimum a SEOS-24 with CD will cost around $700-800. Add in woofers and box and the added DSP and amp cost is rather small relative increase.

The multiple 5-6" woofers is a cool option, but it does get more complicated and it is hard to say it would be worth it. It might be easier to do the dual Delta-10s, but the nice thing about some of those 5s is that they are so cheap you can use 8 of them. Ultimately, there might not be any advantage to doing this. It certainly wouldn't be a huge shift in performance. It would definitely be easier to just use a single TD15.
post #131 of 201
The engineers at Klipsch will dump 20V into a compression driver at 100Hz to break it in.....you guys are way overly concerned about diaphragm damage from over-excursion.

I've run the BMS 4550 on the QSC horn with an XTi 1000 in a pro sound environment and no damage whatsoever - even with a low 900Hz 24dB LR xover and running the amplifier into clipping a few times.
post #132 of 201
Where is the excursion peak relative to the XO freq?

And where did you get the necessary parameters to input for the CD?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Noah, winisd won't do Linkwitz Riley other than 4th order and I can't figure out how to do overlays. Regardless, using Butterworth slopes I was able to show myself in WidISD that I'm correct. The peak excursion increses with higher order slopes.

Again, this is for XOers below resonance.

Edited by noah katz - 6/21/13 at 1:33pm
post #133 of 201
Right above the XO frequency like I've been saying all along. The higher order XO has more excursion because it's transfer function is more abrupt.

I used parameters for a few small cone mids and stuck hundreds of watts to them in an IB. Worst case scenario. Realistically, it'll be even more true in a sealed chamber.

If you don't believe me, check it out for yourself. LR4 is likely the safest XO transfer function there is. (not to be confused with acoustic LR4).
post #134 of 201
But you are only looking at a narrow section of BW to draw that incorrect conclusion. Now assume that the pre filter signal has an equal amplitude 200Hz and 2kHz signal, then the steeper slope filter is going to give the lowest excursion over all in the HF passband and therefore lowest distortion and lowest chance of exceeding Xmax.

Looking at a swept sine is not the same as inputting a wideband signal, which is what will actually happen in reality.
post #135 of 201
Real music also doesn't consist of a 200 and 2khz sine wave, so I don't understand what you mean. The xmax is greatest just above the -6db point. Below the -6db point all the slopes are well down.

Have you looked at any excursion graphs yourself?
post #136 of 201
I know everyone has tried many of the popular CD's out and wanted to know what you thought about the BMS4555 vs 18 Sound 1460A or 1480N. Both would be crossed over at the same frequency of around 700-900hz. Nothing set yet. Just curious which may be the better value? SQ and SPL.

I myself was planning on using a high crossover slope. After looking at many of ALK's Klipsch steep slopes I think the high crossover slope will be fine. But I do see that in WinISD it does cause a higher Xmax before it gradually slopes off.

The BMS 4555 is not that expensive and I am guessing that the 18 Sound 1460 or 1480 will be more. But it may be worth it IDK
post #137 of 201
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?215536-Flex-Your-PCD-Mettle/page42

zilch tested the 4555 on the jbl horn. not sure if you saw that one or not. also, it is 1.5". pnw did the 1460a on the 18sounds xt1464 with good results.
post #138 of 201
Thanks. Missed the Zilch review. Loved his work so its always good to read more from him. Saw the PNW at that had me sold on the 18 Sound 1460A. But I was curious if the 1480N offered a better product or not. PLUS of the money I can get the 4555 cheaper than the 18 Sound. But SQ and SPL is what I am after. Will slowly be collecting parts for my next build.
post #139 of 201
The 4555 and 4554 are both just 4550s with larger exits. You are going to see similar results. They are small format 1.75" diaphragm CDs and will struggle at lower frequencies.

There really isn't a cheap way to do large horns right.
post #140 of 201
Yah thanks for that. rolleyes.gif LOL. I saw Zilch used the 4555 at 1200hz so that went out the window. Not that it really mattered. I just had BMS on a pedestal for a while and thought they would work. Using same components and just a different exit makes sense since they compare so easily. I think the 1460A will be the budget driver and I will just see if the 1480N is even worth the extra coin. Either way I have a while to go. I unfortunately cant buy and try living in OZ. Will just simulate and go from there I guess. PNW did show the 1460 as a good driver though.

I am still struggling with finding a nice small midrange that can deliver high spl in a horn. Celestion 0410M ? are only OEM so I am looking for alternatives. They do make a 5" also but who knows. But I dont want to off track this thread. Still want to try and get some 360's also for another project if the shipping is not to killer.
post #141 of 201
If it used a plastic surround, I'd give the nod to the nitride treated 1480N. Since the N apparently has a titanium surround, I'll recommend the 1460A. (Disclosure, I have three 1460A I'll sell but shipping to OZ would be too costly.)
post #142 of 201
Thanks PNW. I will stick with the 1460A then. I can get the 1460 for the same price as in the USA here. So maybe add 10% is all. So thats why I am trying to use 18 Sounds products when I can. How low could you comfortably crossover at with the 1460A?

These will be used outside not indoors.
post #143 of 201
Lowest xo depends on the volume level and horn. I use drivers conservatively, targeting very low distortion. That said, I've run them from about 650-800, usually settling around 750 with WGs designed for pattern control over max output.
post #144 of 201
Refreshingly enjoyable thread, good stuff.
post #145 of 201
did you upgrade from the 1460 to something else for the octagon?
post #146 of 201
Just the new center is all...I have five 1460s.
post #147 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnw View Post

Lowest xo depends on the volume level and horn. I use drivers conservatively, targeting very low distortion. That said, I've run them from about 650-800, usually settling around 750 with WGs designed for pattern control over max output.

Well thats good to hear. 750 is nice and low and even 900hz maybe for higher spl. Will order a pair of them in the next few weeks. I will be building the horn for these.(SH) I have been playing around the excel spreadsheet from bwaslo and thinking about 60x40. 90x60 was nice but to big for me. High volume was the key here for me. Numbers are only numbers to me until I can get outside with a test setup. So for now I was just shooting for 130db or more from the total horn.(3way/Mids/bass) I know I dont want just 130db from the CD but these are just rough numbers I am after. Will be a few months before I have anything that resembles a speaker.smile.gif And then I will be in a large open field for testing.
post #148 of 201
Some random questions that I have:

Has anyone ever built a 3-way design with the Seos waveguides?
If using tte Seos-18/Radian-951PB, (or a Seos-24/Radian-950PB), as the mid-range driver/horn combo in a 3-way configuration, with something like a JBL-2225, for the low end, what would be a good tweeter and HF horn? I have considered building something like these as I already have the Radian CD, and the JBL woofers, but I am unsure what I could use for the tweeter and HF waveguide/horn?

Also, I am just curious as to what would be possible with using a RAAL tweeter on the Seos-RAAL waveguide? That seems like a funky combination to me, never thought about using that tweeter in a horn! LoL.
post #149 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Some random questions that I have:

Has anyone ever built a 3-way design with the Seos waveguides?
If using tte Seos-18/Radian-951PB, (or a Seos-24/Radian-950PB), as the mid-range driver/horn combo in a 3-way configuration, with something like a JBL-2225, for the low end, what would be a good tweeter and HF horn? I have considered building something like these as I already have the Radian CD, and the JBL woofers, but I am unsure what I could use for the tweeter and HF waveguide/horn?

Also, I am just curious as to what would be possible with using a RAAL tweeter on the Seos-RAAL waveguide? That seems like a funky combination to me, never thought about using that tweeter in a horn! LoL.
I'm working on something similar, more details to come as I move further along.
post #150 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

Well thats good to hear. 750 is nice and low and even 900hz maybe for higher spl. Will order a pair of them in the next few weeks. I will be building the horn for these.(SH) I have been playing around the excel spreadsheet from bwaslo and thinking about 60x40. 90x60 was nice but to big for me. High volume was the key here for me. Numbers are only numbers to me until I can get outside with a test setup. So for now I was just shooting for 130db or more from the total horn.(3way/Mids/bass) I know I dont want just 130db from the CD but these are just rough numbers I am after. Will be a few months before I have anything that resembles a speaker.smile.gif And then I will be in a large open field for testing.

Chap, are you looking into a Synergy clone? Why use a 1.4" exit CD? The only reason I can see doing that is if you are trying to use mids which won't extend high enough for the CD but there are mids out there that mate well with a 1".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Some random questions that I have:

Has anyone ever built a 3-way design with the Seos waveguides?
If using tte Seos-18/Radian-951PB, (or a Seos-24/Radian-950PB), as the mid-range driver/horn combo in a 3-way configuration, with something like a JBL-2225, for the low end, what would be a good tweeter and HF horn? I have considered building something like these as I already have the Radian CD, and the JBL woofers, but I am unsure what I could use for the tweeter and HF waveguide/horn?

Also, I am just curious as to what would be possible with using a RAAL tweeter on the Seos-RAAL waveguide? That seems like a funky combination to me, never thought about using that tweeter in a horn! LoL.

Marty, you've been barking up this tree for a while. The answers haven't changed. There are a nearly infinite number of ways to skin the cat. It comes down to budget, space constraints and priorities. If you had a ridiculous budget and could fit a 24" wide speaker I'd suggest something like a SEOS-15 with TAD TD-2002 crossed around 1300hz to a SEOS-24 with TAD TD-4003 covering 400hz-1300hz and a pair of TAD TL-1801 with one on top and one on bottom. Of course 3 of those would cost as much as a nice sports car and be about as big. You could scale that back with less expensive drivers if you want a slightly less uber 3-way horn setup.

Most guys won't use a "tweeter" above a SEOS-18 or SEOS-24. IMO, that approach is no longer needed with modern drivers. Either spend the money for a BMS coax, beryllium diaphragm or coated titanium or just stick to 1" exit CDs on smaller horns. Of course you will find someone taking nearly approach imaginable even if it defies logic (usually the motivation is either nostalgia or "more is better"). Also, the SEOS-18 is 1" exit so a 951PB won't work as it is 1.4" exit. The 950PB won't work on a SEOS-24 as it is 2" exit.

You mention Raal and 3-way horn system when they are really quite different. The RAAL won't be capable of the same level of output. The RAALs I've seen are best used above 2-3khz. They are also very expensive. Finally, they tend to have vertical directivity issues due to their shape. I haven't seen anybody use the SEOS RAAL setup.
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