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Resampling 5.1 analog out of SACD (from OPPO)

post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 
I think this is probably the easiest way to rip my SACDs to hard drive. What is the best way to do this without spending too much?
post #2 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heuristix View Post

I think this is probably the easiest way to rip my SACDs to hard drive. What is the best way to do this without spending too much?

You will be ripping the CD layer of Hybrid SACDs and will not be able to rip anything from single layer SACDs.

Bill
post #3 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heuristix View Post

I think this is probably the easiest way to rip my SACDs to hard drive. What is the best way to do this without spending too much?

You're talking about inputting the 6-ch analog output from the player to your PC? Sure you can. I'd suggest sampling at 24/96 when you record. All you need is a sound card with 6-ch analog input.

There were several of the DVD players that got modded for multiple SPDIF output, which people used for the same purpose. Even a couple companies selling the mods. They show up once in a while on eBay. But with current hardware, the sound card with analog input is best unless you can find a sound card with HDMI input and support for 6-ch LPCM input at 24/88.
post #4 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

You're talking about inputting the 6-ch analog output from the player to your PC? Sure you can. I'd suggest sampling at 24/96 when you record. All you need is a sound card with 6-ch analog input.

There were several of the DVD players that got modded for multiple SPDIF output, which people used for the same purpose. Even a couple companies selling the mods. They show up once in a while on eBay. But with current hardware, the sound card with analog input is best unless you can find a sound card with HDMI input and support for 6-ch LPCM input at 24/88.

So you are saying one can rip the SACD layer of a single layer SACD to ones computer?

Bill
post #5 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

So you are saying one can rip the SACD layer of a single layer SACD to ones computer?

Bill
ANALOG (read thread title) You can take ANY analog source and digitize it.
post #6 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post

ANALOG (read thread title) You can take ANY analog source and digitize it.

Even SACDs with Sony's copyright protection? So when doing this you are getting a DSD mirrored copy of the single layer SACD? In other words when using the analog output (DSD setting) of the Oppo to a computer you will have an exact copy (SQ wise) as the SACD disc? If this is true why are so many people going through the bother of using a PS3 to rip their SACDs when they can make copies with the same SQ using the analog output of an SACD player? I'm not very well versed in ripping music so please bear with me. But if I can make exact duplicates of my SACD library doing this then I'm all for it smile.gif!

Bill
post #7 of 23
Was hoping someone else would have replied by now but....

First Bill you need to do some basic research and understanding of digital and analog audio. I will just answer your questions but you need to learn why.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Even SACDs with Sony's copyright protection? So when doing this you are getting a DSD mirrored copy of the single layer SACD?

DRM (Digital Rights Management) aka: copy protection is, well Digital. Analog has no way to offer practical copy protection without effecting SQ. Once any digital materiel (music, video, text, pictures,...) is converted to analog you can do anything with it (except make it back 100% the way it was).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

In other words when using the analog output (DSD setting) of the Oppo to a computer you will have an exact copy (SQ wise) as the SACD disc?

No, because you are doing an D/A conversion and passing through an analog chain (cables, connectors,.....) and the a A/D conversion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

If this is true why are so many people going through the bother of using a PS3 to rip their SACDs when they can make copies with the same SQ using the analog output of an SACD player? I'm not very well versed in ripping music so please bear with me. But if I can make exact duplicates of my SACD library doing this then I'm all for it smile.gif!

Bill

Many, many people use this method to rip SA-CD's. It can be high quality but it's in no way shape or form an "exact duplicate" .
post #8 of 23
I don't think that's what he's suggesting. You are capturing the ANALOG stream coming from the player and into the inputs of the soundcard in order to get the 6 channels of sound recorded to your hard drive. There WILL be degredation from the original sound source. And, you'll have to record in real time. But... at least you'll have a 6 channel mix recorded to your hard drive. And, if you have the proper software, you could probably make your own 6 Channel mixes of your favorite artists without the need for exchanging discs, etc.
post #9 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post

Was hoping someone else would have replied by now but....

First Bill you need to do some basic research and understanding of digital and analog audio. I will just answer your questions but you need to learn why.
DRM (Digital Rights Management) aka: copy protection is, well Digital. Analog has no way to offer practical copy protection without effecting SQ. Once any digital materiel (music, video, text, pictures,...) is converted to analog you can do anything with it (except make it back 100% the way it was).
No, because you are doing an D/A conversion and passing through an analog chain (cables, connectors,.....) and the a A/D conversion.
Many, many people use this method to rip SA-CD's. It can be high quality but it's in no way shape or form an "exact duplicate" .

William,

Thanks for your thoughts and patience in your detailed response smile.gif.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hendrix View Post

I don't think that's what he's suggesting. You are capturing the ANALOG stream coming from the player and into the inputs of the soundcard in order to get the 6 channels of sound recorded to your hard drive. There WILL be degredation from the original sound source. And, you'll have to record in real time. But... at least you'll have a 6 channel mix recorded to your hard drive. And, if you have the proper software, you could probably make your own 6 Channel mixes of your favorite artists without the need for exchanging discs, etc.

Joe,

Thanks for your thoughts as well smile.gif.

Bill
post #10 of 23
Thread Starter 
I googled around a little; perhaps something like this?
http://www.amazon.com/M-Audio-Delta-1010-LT-Digital-System/dp/B000085ZKX
Musicians would probably find more uses for this, but I'm not sure it is worth spending the money just for the convenience of not having to pull out physical SACDs
post #11 of 23
I did some quick searching and didn't come up with a sound card that has more than stereo analog inputs. However those are cheap and plentiful, just no 5.1 inputs.
post #12 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

I did some quick searching and didn't come up with a sound card that has more than stereo analog inputs. However those are cheap and plentiful, just no 5.1 inputs.

Forgive my computer illiteracy, but would it be possible to run the 5.1 output into 3 soundcards and output into a form that could be converted to a 5.1 pcm soundfile?
post #13 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWinVA View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

I did some quick searching and didn't come up with a sound card that has more than stereo analog inputs. However those are cheap and plentiful, just no 5.1 inputs.

Forgive my computer illiteracy, but would it be possible to run the 5.1 output into 3 soundcards and output into a form that could be converted to a 5.1 pcm soundfile?
With the electronics and software available today, many people have a "recording studio" in a room in their house. I'd be looking to see what hardware and software these people use.
post #14 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWinVA View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

I did some quick searching and didn't come up with a sound card that has more than stereo analog inputs. However those are cheap and plentiful, just no 5.1 inputs.

Forgive my computer illiteracy, but would it be possible to run the 5.1 output into 3 soundcards and output into a form that could be converted to a 5.1 pcm soundfile?

You need sound card which can be synchronized together. Usually this means cards designed for pro-music application. Cheapest probably will be M-Audio Delta series. If you really care about high quality SACD grabbing, follow old PlayStation method (search for instructions for required hardware and software), that way you will be able to get a bit perfect copy of original disk.
post #15 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hendrix View Post

I don't think that's what he's suggesting. You are capturing the ANALOG stream coming from the player and into the inputs of the soundcard in order to get the 6 channels of sound recorded to your hard drive. There WILL be degredation from the original sound source. And, you'll have to record in real time. But... at least you'll have a 6 channel mix recorded to your hard drive. And, if you have the proper software, you could probably make your own 6 Channel mixes of your favorite artists without the need for exchanging discs, etc.


The only degradation you will hear, is what you would have heard if you were simply listening to the analog output anyway -- i.e., normal SACD listening. Digitizing the analog output , especially at rates like 88.2/24 or 96/24, using a decent ADC, is not going to introduce audible artifacts.

The M-Audio Delta series works fine for this.
post #16 of 23
Hi! The Focusrite Scarlett 18i6 (http://www.amazon.com/Focusrite-Scarlett-18i6-Interface-Featuring/dp/B004W6KREC/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1375168457&sr=1-2&keywords=focusrite+scarlett+8i6) seems to be another good choice for recording SACDs. It gives you suffcient analog inputs and has the advantage of using USB rather than having to be installed internally.

I wonder if someone has tried to record SACDs digitally. I guess this can be done pretty easily. There are a lot of gamers that record the HDMI output of their Playstations to a HDMI input capture card. The HDMI output of the Playstation is copy protected as all other usual HDMI consumables incl. SACD by the HDCP copy protection. This can easily be stripped of using a cheap ($20) HDMI splitter. If you feed this to a capture card from a good video capture card with 8-channel audio e.g. Matrox or Blackmagic (prices from $230), you should be able to record SACD while keeping the audio in the digital domain. The capture cards support 24 bit/48 kHz sampling, of course not as good as SACDs, but still very good (R.E.M's 5.1 DVD-Audios use 24/48, and they do sound good to me). By keeping the sound in the digital domain you avoid artifacts you might get by a digital/analog/digital conversion as noise, overshoots/distortion. The only thing I am uncertain of is whether SACD players will output the PCM as 24 bit/48 kHz. I can set my SACD player to PCM and 48 kHz sampling, but since my receiver supports higher sampling rates it will produce 24 bit/88,2 kHz instead. Would be great to hear if someone has tested this!
post #17 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundengineer View Post

Hi! The Focusrite Scarlett 18i6 (http://www.amazon.com/Focusrite-Scarlett-18i6-Interface-Featuring/dp/B004W6KREC/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1375168457&sr=1-2&keywords=focusrite+scarlett+8i6) seems to be another good choice for recording SACDs. It gives you suffcient analog inputs and has the advantage of using USB rather than having to be installed internally.

I wonder if someone has tried to record SACDs digitally. I guess this can be done pretty easily. There are a lot of gamers that record the HDMI output of their Playstations to a HDMI input capture card. The HDMI output of the Playstation is copy protected as all other usual HDMI consumables incl. SACD by the HDCP copy protection. This can easily be stripped of using a cheap ($20) HDMI splitter. If you feed this to a capture card from a good video capture card with 8-channel audio e.g. Matrox or Blackmagic (prices from $230), you should be able to record SACD while keeping the audio in the digital domain. The capture cards support 24 bit/48 kHz sampling, of course not as good as SACDs, but still very good (R.E.M's 5.1 DVD-Audios use 24/48, and they do sound good to me). By keeping the sound in the digital domain you avoid artifacts you might get by a digital/analog/digital conversion as noise, overshoots/distortion. The only thing I am uncertain of is whether SACD players will output the PCM as 24 bit/48 kHz. I can set my SACD player to PCM and 48 kHz sampling, but since my receiver supports higher sampling rates it will produce 24 bit/88,2 kHz instead. Would be great to hear if someone has tested this!

Month old thread, but have been catching up after a long time on the forums. The problem with capturing via HDMI (even with available HDCP bypass splitters) is you are going to lose the DSD stream, as SACD 5.1/SACD 2.0 are output as LPCM 5.1/LPCM 2.0 respectively via the HDMI. Purists wanted bit perfect copy of DSD, hence the PS3 method to create bit4bit iso is the only solution to date.

It is another thing that some do end up converting the SACD ISO to 24/88.2 PCM for playback on wider range of devices or to author DVD-As. If PCM was the goal, then with appropriate HDMI capture card that can handle LPCM 5.1/2.0 @176.4 KHz can in theory capture the PCM stream. I don't think there are any capture cards that can handle multichannel 5.1 LPCM streams. There are a few that do 2.0 LPCM, so it may work for stereo SACDs.

Also important to note that the analog video/optical digital audio hole used to backup BluRay movies through the Hauppage HDPVRs etc devices also don't work for SACDs as output is crippled at 2.0@44.1 KHz.

PS3 FAQ on AVS is quite handy when it comes to all this http://www.avsforum.com/t/931796/official-ps3-faq-master-thread
post #18 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

I did some quick searching and didn't come up with a sound card that has more than stereo analog inputs. However those are cheap and plentiful, just no 5.1 inputs.

What you propose to do is probably going to be technical suicide. As a rule consumer audio interfaces have no way to synchronize their clocks to external sources or other audio interfaces. If you record 6 channels on 3 such sound cards the channel pairs will wander apart. You can probably record a single track without audible consequences, but after a half hour the lack of synchronization is probably going to more than a little audible.

The alternative is to glance into the world of professional audio computer interfaces, many of which have 8 inputs. The M-Audio Delta 1010 and 1010LT come quickly to mind, probably because I have several on hand. But there are many others with PCI, PCI-E, USB and FW interfaces.

http://www.zzounds.com/item--PRSFSPROJECT

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Zoom-R16-Multitrack-Recorder-Interface-Controller-H70249-i1712737.gc

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/657976-REG

http://www.fullcompass.com/product/447509.html

etc.
post #19 of 23
Thanks for your reply and all the information. I understand the PS3 method is superior since it is a clone of the original. Old PS3s with old firmware is hard to get by though.

There are in fact some HDMI capture cards (pro/semi pro video equipment) that handle LPCM 5.1. To name a few: Blackmagic's UltraStudio Mini Recorder($145) and Intensity Shuttle ($200, http://www.blackmagicdesign.com) and Matrox MXO2 range (http://www.matrox.com) can all record HDMI with up to 8 channels 24 bit resolution at a max sampling frequency of 48 kHz. I am only wondering whether the SACD will output 24 bit/48 kHz when connected to the capture card (with the HDCP stripper inserted in between)?

I might be buying a HDMI capure card some day any way to record HD video from my satelite tuner. If I do I'll let you know the result.
post #20 of 23
Interesting. Yes you could capture it then (SACD capable PS3 @any firmware version) with the HDCP stripper in line. The Mini Recorder seems to be decently priced! Keep in mind though, the PS3 DSD->PCM internal conversion and output is @ 24/176.4 for both multichannel and stereo SACDs through HDMI, so those three capture cards are doing another round of downsampling due to their hardware constraints.

Not a good solution in my opinion. Maybe you want to do this out of curiosity, but it is not a good capture solution due to the capture cards limitations.
Edited by loonix - 9/19/13 at 6:26pm
post #21 of 23
I am not using a PS3, but one of my SACD players. I have got a Denon and a Pioneer. I am not sure though whether they are able to output 24 bit/48 kHz. I know they can do 24 bit/88,2 kHz for backward compatibility with receivers not supporting DSD. The Pioneer seems to have a downsample option to 48 kHz by looking at the menus, but the manual doesn't cover this in detail. Not sure either of the HDMI standard is coping with this and whether this is a part of the handshake or not. Anyway the Mini Recorder combined with a quiet pc e.g. one of Intel's NUCs will make a good video recorder so it still on my wish list.
post #22 of 23
Thank you all for starting and participating in this discussion. I would be interested in using one of these methods to make backup copies of my multi-channel SACDs. I'm not too concerned about the issue of the copies being "imperfect" due to conversions that may occur at various points in the process. But something else is concerning me - the details of the software operations needed to get to the endpoint, that is storing the 5.1 channel audio in a file on a computer. Maybe some of you who have more experience using these types of professional audio tools can help me think through this.

So, to be more specific, I could get a Blackmagic Design Intensity Shuttle USB 3.0 (http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/intensity), and also an HDMI splitter that "strips" HDCP, maybe this (http://www.amazon.com/Etekcity-Amplified-splitter-swither-XBOX360/dp/B008B7ARRK/) (let's not even worry for now whether the splitter will do the needed "stripping"). Then I could connect my HDMI-capable SACD player (such as Oppo BDP-80) to the HDMI splitter with an HDMI cable, connect the HDMI splitter to the Intensity Shuttle USB 3.0 with another HDMI cable, and connect the Intensity Shuttle to my Dell / Windows 7 64-bit PC with a USB cable. Then turn all devices on, install the control software for the Intensity Shuttle USB 3.0 on the PC, and load a SACD in the Oppo player. And then what ? confused.gif

I don't see a specific option in the Intensity Shuttle users manual (http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/media/5826058/Desktop_Video_Manual_July_2013.pdf) that looks like "read 5.1 channel PCM audio content that is sent to the HDMI input of the device, and store the 5.1 channel audio in a (WAV, FLAC, etc) file". Maybe the manual is a bit sketchy, and everything becomes more clear once the user starts to set up the process (the manual does have a section on "Capturing Audio and Video Files").

And I have the same general question about how to accomplish the task of storing the multichannel audio in a file, for a device with a multichannel analog interface such as the M-Audio Delta 1010 (http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Delta1010.html).
post #23 of 23
I've been looking a little into this. Like you I am not concerned about the copies being "imperfect", a good digital conversion or analog recording would do for me. I just like to play back my 5.1-music from a computer. I prefer digital conversion since my experience is that this adds less colouration to the sound, less noise addition and less level problems. Blackmagic support Windows, OSX and Linux. The three OSes will behave differently. In Windows when installing the drivers you will probably be able to use the Blackmagic device from any audio and video software that let you sync to the external signal. You will easily hear if it doesn't (this will produce clicks and pops). I haven't tested this, but a freeware app like Audacity should be able to do this. The Blackmagic devices comes with a software called Blackmagic's Media Express. The manual focuses on video, but you shoul be able to use this for recording audio as well. If it insist on recording video and audio, you could surely export the audio afterwards. If you use Blackmagic devices in Mac OSX it will be available for any software using QuickTime in addition to Blackmagic's Media Express software. From my point of view there are to obstacles using the digital path: 1) Will the SACD output 48 kHz sampling when connected to the Blackmagic device (with a HDCP stripper inserted in the middle of course)? 2) If you choose the Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle (USB version) there are several users reporting having problem with this device using Dell computers. ASUS motherboards seems fine and also others. Do check this before buying. Googling it will provide answers. (Using Blackmagic Mini Recorder is an option, but you will need a computer with Thunderbolt connection. This is standard on newer macs, but rare on PCs. Intel has got one interesting model though: http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/motherboards/desktop-motherboards/desktop-kit-dc3217by.html. A great PC for a media center/music player, but you need to add RAM and disk yourself. Not very hard though. You can probably find kits as well. The total price for this and the Mini Recorder isn't very scary compared to what a SACD player costs.

If you choose going down the analog path you can for sure use Audacity for recording (editing if necessary) and saving as 5.1 .wav-files. Usually you also get good digital audio workstation software as a bonus when buying the soundcards. M-Audio comes with a lite version of ProTools, while Focusrite's Scarlet 18i6 comes with Ableton Live Lite. Whether they are able to export 5.1 .wav or not, I'm not sure, you need to test or google before buying, but Audacity works. Let us know what you do next!
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