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What the Heck- is it impossible to get the best bluray, NAS/Harddrive playback AND streaming... - Page 2

post #31 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Honestly the Oppo BD 103 is looking like a great option. With a simple DUNE box if needed for streaming off the NAS. I need to revisit the OPPO thread.
This.

IMHO, you won't need the DUNE. The 103 plays MKVs with virtually every mainstream codec, including HD audio, when streamed via DLNA or via connected HD. Thus, one can use a very low-powered NAS or PC/Mac as a DLNA server as zero transcoding/remuxing is required for 100% bit-for-bit quality from Blu Ray or DVD backups. This is a major difference compared to most other Blu Ray players that only support specific container/codec combinations that can require significant software tweaking on the server end or significant CPU horsepower for transcoding. For example, I was able to stop using a PC as a DLNA server and now use a bottom-of-the-line Synology 212j with it's included Media Server to serve everything via DLNA to a 103. It just works.

Don't let the 103 thread scare you----the setup for the 103 is actually quite simple and comparable to other Blu Ray players just with some additional advanced featured options if desired.

One very strong hint: if you plan to serve HD MKVs via DLNA: use a wired connection. Wireless can work, in theory, but that planets must be aligned for consistent results.

A second hint: the 103 uses Cinavia protection for physical discs, thus a direct copy of a Blu Ray played via disc will not work. Ditto for full disc backups in the BDMV folder structure. This is because the current restriction covers the BDMV licensed directory structure. Thus, MKV and M2TS containers are not an issue as they currently are not included in the BD licensing requirement. Obviously, as with anything, there is no guarantee that this will remain the case forever.
Edited by bluechunks - 6/22/13 at 8:49am
post #32 of 52
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

There is no contradiction. My quote was "If the original disk is Cinavia protected, the rip (in any form) will not play on any Cinavia enabled player -- period." I can't make it clearer than that.

A Cinavia enabled player will only play Cinavia protected content from the original commercial BD disk -- that is the whole purpose of Cinavia, not to prevent the making of copies but to prevent the playing of copies whether they be burned to disk or stored on a HDD. The Oppo 103, like all new BD players, will only play Cinavia protected content from the original studio disk. If you rip the content to a HDD and try to stream it with the Oppo, the Cinavia watermark will tell the Oppo the content is Cinavia protected. The Oppo will then look to see if you are playing the content from original disk and if not, it will cut out the audio after 20 min and display a nasty-gram on the screen telling you you are trying to play an illegal copy.

Any player with a BDA license issued after 2/12 must be Cinavia enabled. That includes all BD disk players and PC software for playing BD disks on a PC -- Power DVD, Win DVD, Nero, Total Media Theater. A BDA license is also required for advanced BD menu features like BD Live so, although no current media streamers are Cinavia enabled, any new media streamers that want to offer the full BD menu experience will likely need a BDA license and with that would come Cinavia.

Again: Any player that is Cinavia enabled will only play Cinavia protected content from the original commercial disk. Use a BD player to play BD disks and optionally to access Internet content sites. Use a media player for local content streaming.

Kleson- I've read several times exactly what bluechunks has stated below. So which is it? You're saying "If the original disk is Cinavia protected, the rip (in any form) will not play on any Cinavia enabled player -- period."

Bluechunks says " the 103 uses Cinavia protection for physical discs, thus a direct copy of a Blu Ray played via disc will not work."

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluechunks View Post

This.

IMHO, you won't need the DUNE. The 103 plays MKVs with virtually every mainstream codec, including HD audio, when streamed via DLNA or via connected HD. Thus, one can use a very low-powered NAS or PC/Mac as a DLNA server as zero transcoding/remuxing is required for 100% bit-for-bit quality from Blu Ray or DVD backups. This is a major difference compared to most other Blu Ray players that only support specific container/codec combinations that can require significant software tweaking on the server end or significant CPU horsepower for transcoding. For example, I was able to stop using a PC as a DLNA server and now use a bottom-of-the-line Synology 212j with it's included Media Server to serve everything via DLNA to a 103. It just works.

Don't let the 103 thread scare you----the setup for the 103 is actually quite simple and comparable to other Blu Ray players just with some additional advanced featured options if desired.

One very strong hint: if you plan to serve HD MKVs via DLNA: use a wired connection. Wireless can work, in theory, but that planets must be aligned for consistent results.

A second hint: the 103 uses Cinavia protection for physical discs, thus a direct copy of a Blu Ray played via disc will not work. Ditto for full disc backups in the BDMV folder structure. This is because the current restriction covers the BDMV licensed directory structure. Thus, MKV and M2TS containers are not an issue as they currently are not included in the BD licensing requirement. Obviously, as with anything, there is no guarantee that this will remain the case forever.

Thanks for the info. Although I've read elsewhere that there are issues with backed up content playing back on the Oppo 103. The reason for 'if I have to I can get a cheap Dune Player'

Does the Oppo-103 support ISO playback with light menu options? EDIT---Answer - NO http://watershade.net/wmcclain/BDP-103-faq.html#does-the-player-implement-cinavia-watermark-detection
Edited by pdxrealtor - 6/22/13 at 10:47am
post #33 of 52
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hjackson View Post

.

Then a few days ago I ripped A Good Day To Die Hard to MKV and found it would not automatically play the forced subtitles, so I had to turn on all the subtitles. The, when I searched on how to just have the forced subtitles play, I could not isolate the forced only subtitle track and further reading suggests I would need to do at least 2 other ripping and remuxing steps to get it right. WTF?

What MKV software were you using? Curious


So, I will recommend to you the simplest thing to do. Rip to ISO with AnyDVD/ImageBurn and play through Windows Media Center with the MyMovies plugin on a Zotac ZBOXHD bluray minipc using any of the several air mouses to control. The UI on the Plex client for Windows is horrible (but fine for Android client) and I would only use MKVs and Plex if you have tablets or phones you want to stream to in or out of the house. I only hate MKVs over the forced subtitle thing as I don't want to spend hours screwing around just to get one movie right. WMC/MyMovies is easy to set up and you don't have to worry about subtitles or other things missing when you rip to a full ISO. There are several different ZBOX Bluray PCs and the lower powered Atoms do not play flash/silverlight/netflix well. And for the HTPC browser use Kylo (the most under appreciated HTPC software out there). It will automatically integrate with WMC.

That's two votes for a HTPC. I'm just not sure I want to go that route. In fact I've been against that option for years. Please note for myself only. I think it's great for those who choose to do a HTPC

Quote:
Originally Posted by hjackson View Post

Oh, and the answer to you post is; without a HTPC, YES!

What question are you answering. My quest to find a one box fits all solution?
post #34 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Although I've read elsewhere that there are issues with backed up content playing back on the Oppo 103.
That would be news to me. There's been nothing that I've thrown at it that it hasn't played via DLNA via my wired network. Stick to the DLNA servers that are mentioned in the FAQ and you are golden.....the problems are generally on the server end, or with the network, and not the Oppo as long as you stick to the supported containers and codecs.

I do know there are LOTS of problems with folks trying to use, and properly configure, a server using SMB. Oppo describes SMB as a "beta" feature and there are plenty of variables with different operating systems and their SMB support and configuration. For those experienced with networking it can work well, and I have used it successfully with my NAS, but the DLNA server works great and is more "family friendly" at my house.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Does the Oppo-103 support ISO playback with light menu options? EDIT---Answer - NO http://watershade.net/wmcclain/BDP-103-faq.html#does-the-player-implement-cinavia-watermark-detection
Actually, there is a further edit. Change that to sort of and search the Oppo forum for bdmv_modify_v1.4.exe. It's not full ISO support, but can provide BDMV menu support within AHVCD folders which is the next best thing now that the BDA put their foot down on ISO support. wink.gif
post #35 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluechunks View Post

A second hint: the 103 uses Cinavia protection for physical discs, thus a direct copy of a Blu Ray played via disc will not work. Ditto for full disc backups in the BDMV folder structure. This is because the current restriction covers the BDMV licensed directory structure. Thus, MKV and M2TS containers are not an issue as they currently are not included in the BD licensing requirement.
Have you actually done it on the Oppo 103 with a known Cinavia title ripped to MKV or .m2ts? Audio cuts out after 20 min so playing the beginning of the title doesn't count, you have to play it for a while to make sure.

Here's the list of Cinavia infected BluRays.
post #36 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

Have you actually done it on the Oppo 103 with a known Cinavia title ripped to MKV or .m2ts?
Nope. None of the titles on the list are ones I would consider owning, and the ones I have viewed have been Netflix rentals on disc.

BUT....this topic has been absolutely beaten to death on the 103 thread, including comments from Oppo support, and is specifically mentioned on the actively maintained 103 FAQ.

smile.gif
Edited by bluechunks - 6/22/13 at 1:58pm
post #37 of 52
Thread Starter 
SO.... it seems this 'backup' of movies is a cat and mouse game similar to the days when cable descramblers and satellite hacks were around.

It just hit me (and I feel kinda dumb) that my AVR has the same video processor as the OPPO bd -103 so unless I'm missing something I have no need for an Oppo.

Why would I buy an Oppo 103-
  1. Play Blu Ray discs/Dvds/etc... I do need that option, but the MUCH less expensive Pioneer BD 150 will do that for me. (Or any other bare bones BD player)
  2. Video upscale. My receiver does that
  3. Ability to play backed up movies (MKV or others) - no ISO, no thanks. (I'm not going to apply 'fixes' to the Oppo so I can play ISO, back up 300 movies only to find three months later the ISO fix is no good)
  4. Streaming online apps (Netflix/Vudu/etc)- Pay 500.00 for that option? No.


I have ruled out the need for an Oppo 103. If I've missed something in my process of elimination by all means, PLEASE tell me.

At this point I'm looking at:
  1. A streaming box (Netflix/VUDU/HULU/Etc) that supports 3D and all audio pass through.
  2. A simple BD player - Most likely the Pioneer BD 150 for it's compatibility with my iPAD AVR remote app.
  3. A (yep- I'll eat words) PC option to store ISO BD/DVD/ backups.

I will now read for the next several days on the best way to setup a PC to play BD/DVD ISO through my receiver to my PJ. I will be looking for an option with an iPad remote control app, automatic cover flow/synopsis style juke box like ability, and last and most important I will be verifying that BD/DVD ISO backups to a PC are not in any jeopardy of becoming useless.

If anyone has info/advice positive or negative on my direction please share it with me.

I want to express my thanks to those who have already provided input.
post #38 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

I will now read for the next several days on the best way to setup a PC to play BD/DVD ISO through my receiver to my PJ. I will be looking for an option with an iPad remote control app, automatic cover flow/synopsis style juke box like ability, and last and most important I will be verifying that BD/DVD ISO backups to a PC are not in any jeopardy of becoming useless.
Look at the DVD Fab Media Player

It will play anything and has an integrated jukebox. It's based on XBMC.
post #39 of 52
Thread Starter 
Solution -

1 - Pioneer BDP - 150 142.00 http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/Blu-ray-Disc/Pioneer-Blu-ray-Disc-Players/BDP-150
2- NEO TV NTV300SL ~60.00 - http://www.netgear.com/home/products/hometheater/media-players/NTV300SL.aspx#three
3- Dune Zappiti Player - 350.00 - http://www.duneplayer.com/zappiti-players/zappiti-player.html

Number 1 for Blu-Ray disc playback
Number 2 for online streaming - including VUDU 3D, and HDX
Number 3 for Backing up discs in ISO format AND cover art

All have iPad apps and provide top audio and video. Although video will be handled via my AVR.

Total is 552.00, 53.00 more than the Oppo.

I think it's a winning deal. What about you guys? Am I missing anything?
post #40 of 52
Thread Starter 
Ehhh.... you know what.

Why would I pay for players and spend the time backing up my media if it wasn't a for sure playback? You all can F around with ripping, copying, subtitles, 3D, HTPCs, etc...... I really do appreciate your passion as I've been there. But not at this point in my life.

Heck when I was just a kid we used to get HBO from the sky via a simple antenna. I remember watching Star Wars 1 over and over on "FREE" HBO.

But that was simple.

To spend my time copying a DVD or BD for the sole purpose of Juke box style playback seems dumb when taking into the account all of the issues I read about, even with the finest of playback devices IE- DUNE....... ---

PCH (popcorn hour) ??? What a joke. You must be kidding me. Spending thousands on equipment to watch movies in a cinema style atmosphere the last thing I'm going to do is F around with Popcorn Hour type issues.

I would love to speak with Andrew Robinson about his decision to use the Dune and MKV as his sole playback method. Given the issues I don't get it.

I also don't get the fact that there are virtually NO jukebox style BD players on the market. A true JB style player that catalogs your collection with cool graphics, the ability to skip previews, the ability to have BD Live OR NOT, the ability to stream from that jukebox to the other TVs in your house.

Edit..... I was quite frustrated. Sorry about the rant. lol wink.gif
Edited by pdxrealtor - 6/23/13 at 12:29pm
post #41 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Thanks I'll read that FAQ. If I have a DTS HD audio blu ray disc that is 5.1, and I have my AVR set to spit out 7.1 does that effect the DTS HD or is that something completely different?

From what I've quickly researched for you on a few different sites, it's recommended using the Dolby Pro Logic IIx setting on your AVR, to fully utilize the rear channels of your 7.1, on 5.1 media. Otherwise, you will only get 5.1 channels in DTS HD on 5.1 media.

More to read, here...
post #42 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

It seems like no matter what I try to piece together there is no two devices that work for superior Bluray, MKV lossless playback via harddrive or NAS over ethernet, and streaming options like vudu and netflix etc....

I picked up a BV8088 about 18months or so ago and that streams full iso from a nas with full BD menus that look as good as on any BD player. It does not do 3D though. http://www.bevixtech.com/product/detail.php/id-7.html It would be interesting to see how the newer Bevix players go but have not seen any locally as I got mine when OS.

I have a HiMedia9000 that does 3D but it glitches over my network. However, its fine from a USB or internal HDD but does not do the menus like the BV8088.

There is a WDTV SMP as well but it doesnt get used that much but is fine for mkv and netflix etc. The game consuls generally just get used for games or the odd BD disc.

For everything else I use a HTPC and most of the family just go for the HTPC as it does everything. Even my 7yr old likes the HTPC with XBMC best.
post #43 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

Have you actually done it on the Oppo 103 with a known Cinavia title ripped to MKV or .m2ts? Audio cuts out after 20 min so playing the beginning of the title doesn't count, you have to play it for a while to make sure.

Here's the list of Cinavia infected BluRays.

I've verified no current Cinavia detection on MKV or M2TS on known titles, but my method is to let them play for about 25 minutes. Is that not a good test?

-Bill
post #44 of 52
Here's everything you want in one neat little package
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aYkJ6aQCnA&feature=youtube_gdata_player
post #45 of 52
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by L33TX43RT View Post

From what I've quickly researched for you on a few different sites, it's recommended using the Dolby Pro Logic IIx setting on your AVR, to fully utilize the rear channels of your 7.1, on 5.1 media. Otherwise, you will only get 5.1 channels in DTS HD on 5.1 media.

More to read, here...

Thanks for looking around for me.

This morning I did some looking around and found a couple articles that really cleared things up.

In a nutshell, Dolby Digital and DTS, all formats, are simply packages used to deliver the content. The packages are decoded by a player (Blu-Ray, Media, DVD,etc) prior to the AVR, or by the AVR itself.

On my system, playing 5.1 source content on a 7.1 system can be done with Dolby PL, , or NEO Using either of these matrixing methods will not change the audio quality of the 'packaged audio'. So, DTS HD MA will still be DTS HD MA. A portion of it will simply be redirected to the rear surround speakers.

I have not had time to look in my manual to see what is the preferred Dolby PL or NEO method for going from 5.1 source content to 7.1 channels. It's open on my desktop so I don't forget.

So, all I really need out of my media boxes be it a blu-ray player, online content streamer, Dune, or HTPC, is the ability to pass the audio thru to my AVR in original format. My AVR will then handle it.

Whew.... that clears a lot up.
post #46 of 52
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by theslydog View Post

I picked up a BV8088 about 18months or so ago and that streams full iso from a nas with full BD menus that look as good as on any BD player. It does not do 3D though. http://www.bevixtech.com/product/detail.php/id-7.html It would be interesting to see how the newer Bevix players go but have not seen any locally as I got mine when OS.

I have a HiMedia9000 that does 3D but it glitches over my network. However, its fine from a USB or internal HDD but does not do the menus like the BV8088.

There is a WDTV SMP as well but it doesnt get used that much but is fine for mkv and netflix etc. The game consuls generally just get used for games or the odd BD disc.

For everything else I use a HTPC and most of the family just go for the HTPC as it does everything. Even my 7yr old likes the HTPC with XBMC best.

See this is why I get frustrated. It's always something. In your case one has no 3d.
post #47 of 52
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wpbpete View Post

Here's everything you want in one neat little package
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aYkJ6aQCnA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Thanks.

I still haven't read much on the HTPC yet. But I appreciate your suggestion. It looks nice. I'm guessing I'd need something like that combined with a program like DVD Fab Media Player. Again, I haven't had the time to read about that either, just glance at it.
post #48 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post

I've verified no current Cinavia detection on MKV or M2TS on known titles, but my method is to let them play for about 25 minutes. Is that not a good test?

-Bill
Thank you. Yes, that is a good test and sets the Oppo apart. But then having an Oppo DVD player myself, I would expect no less from them.
post #49 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

Thank you. Yes, that is a good test and sets the Oppo apart. But then having an Oppo DVD player myself, I would expect no less from them.

Well, I suspect they allow it until told not to. The studios own and operate everything Blu-ray and there is no fighting them.

In this case it may not be OPPO that allows it, but Mediatek who make the decoder chip and provide much of the media file support.

Mediatek has a big customer called Sony, who care a lot about Cinavia. That's why (without any inside knowledge at all) I always caution people: it can't last.

-Bill
post #50 of 52
Thread Starter 
Didnt take much reading to rule out the HTPC. More work and 'tinkering' than i wanted to do. Ended up going with the dune base 3d zappiti model. With careful research Im pretty sure I can come up with a solid solution for storage and use now as well as future proofing for any new players that i might use.
post #51 of 52
Dune is not perfect either . . .
post #52 of 52
Thread Starter 
Nothing is perfect, but Dune is one of the best.
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