or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › SVS PB1000 or Rythmik LV12R..narrowed it down to these two candidates. Read more: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-audio-subwoofers/68125-svs-pb1000-rythmik-lv12r-narrowed-down-these-two-candidates.html#ixzz2WqxJyNV7
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

SVS PB1000 or Rythmik LV12R..narrowed it down to these two candidates. Read more:...

post #1 of 73
Thread Starter 
SVS PB1000 or Rythmik LV12R..narrowed it down to these two candidates.

These are confirmed prices by both SVS and Rythmik. I live in Canada and shipping and duty costs make any great deals offered by other vendors, not such a great deal. These are my only 2 options I'm considering now.

The SVS will cost me $603. shipped to my adddress
The Rythmik will cost me $679 shipped to my address.

I understand that the Rytmik contains a 12" driver in a vented enclosure and the SVS has a 10" driver also in a vented enclosure, yet despite the difference in driver sizes, both deliver the same output. Which would you go for and why?


Read more: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-audio-subwoofers/68125-svs-pb1000-rythmik-lv12r-narrowed-down-these-two-candidates.html#ixzz2WqxMLl7o
post #2 of 73
The both do not deliver the same output. the LV12R will blow the PB1000 away on output. I would take the LV12R over the PB1000 everyday of the week and twice on Sunday.
post #3 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

The both do not deliver the same output. the LV12R will blow the PB1000 away on output. I would take the LV12R over the PB1000 everyday of the week and twice on Sunday.

DO you have proof of this? According to Ed Mullen of SVS .


The PB-1000 is rated for 103 dB RMS @ 20 Hz via CEA-2010 outdoors at 2 meters ground plane.

Going from ground plane to 1/8th space with two near field boundaries will in theory add 6 dB per boundary, but let's be conservative and call it 4 dB per boundary.

The room will also exhibit at least some room gain (a low-end augmentation of the bass due to conversion from a modal response to a pressure response) and in that size space a conservative estimate would be 4 dB of room gain at 20 Hz.


If the RS SPL meter is being used to monitor peak SPL, be aware that it will typically read 3-4 dB low on DVD LFE bass peaks (which are generally resident in the 25-35 Hz range) since it has a C-weighted filter. "

Those are very impressive numbers for a 10" sub.
post #4 of 73
I hope Jim Wilson - who tested both subs for HTS - chimes in. The graphs don't seem to show the LV12R "blowing away" the PB-1000...but maybe I'm missing something.
post #5 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

I hope Jim Wilson - who tested both subs for HTS - chimes in. The graphs don't seem to show the LV12R "blowing away" the PB-1000...but maybe I'm missing something.

Exactly.. I looked at both graphs and the outputs levels are very close. To say the Rythmik "blows" away the SVS based on those graphs is incorrect.
post #6 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3db View Post

DO you have proof of this? According to Ed Mullen of SVS .


The PB-1000 is rated for 103 dB RMS @ 20 Hz via CEA-2010 outdoors at 2 meters ground plane.

Going from ground plane to 1/8th space with two near field boundaries will in theory add 6 dB per boundary, but let's be conservative and call it 4 dB per boundary.

The room will also exhibit at least some room gain (a low-end augmentation of the bass due to conversion from a modal response to a pressure response) and in that size space a conservative estimate would be 4 dB of room gain at 20 Hz.


If the RS SPL meter is being used to monitor peak SPL, be aware that it will typically read 3-4 dB low on DVD LFE bass peaks (which are generally resident in the 25-35 Hz range) since it has a C-weighted filter. "

Those are very impressive numbers for a 10" sub.

I find that hard to believe when the PB12NSD measured 103.2db @ 20hz cea 2010 2m rms according to data bass...and the PB-1000 is down roughly 3db across the board to the PB12NSD...That would be around 100db @ 20hz.

The LV12 is down 6db to the FV15HP @ 20hz. That would put it around 102db @ 20hz.
post #7 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3db View Post

Exactly.. I looked at both graphs and the outputs levels are very close. To say the Rythmik "blows" away the SVS based on those graphs is incorrect.

Jim Wilson says in his LV12R review that "IT's" the sub to have under 600.00. It handled all he could throw at without skipping a beat, while the PB1000 limiter kicked in several times when pushed.
post #8 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Jim Wilson says in his LV12R review that "IT's" the sub to have under 600.00. It handled all he could throw at without skipping a beat, while the PB1000 limiter kicked in several times when pushed.

Its not that straight forward. From what I've read, the limiter on the SVS kicks in when it measures the distortion level going up. I'm guessing the limiter is set at a lower distortion level than the Rythmik but I cannot confirm this. Maybe Jim can chime in here. May the SVS limiter is set unrealistically low from an audible perspective?
post #9 of 73
I think exactly the same as basshead18.

103 db @ 20Hz, is the output that has the PB12-NSD, I find it strange that the PB1000 is capable of delivering the same output with less power, size of enclosure and driver.

The numbers reflect the PB1000 play 3dB less than the NSD model.
Whereupon, the LV12R, serious affordable to PB12-NSD and not the PB1000.
post #10 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3db View Post

Its not that straight forward. From what I've read, the limiter on the SVS kicks in when it measures the distortion level going up. I'm guessing the limiter is set at a lower distortion level than the Rythmik but I cannot confirm this. Maybe Jim can chime in here. May the SVS limiter is set unrealistically low from an audible perspective?

The rythmik doesn't have a limiter like the svs and its also gona have a lower distortion at Max level than the svs because of rythmiks advanced servo design. From what I have heard the lv12r is pretty comparable to the pb12nsd.
post #11 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I find that hard to believe when the PB12NSD measured 103.2db @ 20hz cea 2010 2m rms according to data bass..
Data-bass's measurements for the PB12-NSD were lower than what SVS got in house, so that may account for some of the discrepancy. Of course, whether it delivers 103 or 100dB at 20Hz, that's not what I'd qualify as a major difference from the 102dB estimate of the LV12.
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

PB-1000 is down roughly 3db across the board to the PB12NSD...That would be around 100db @ 20hz.

FWIW, according to Ed the PB1000 isn't down 3dB across the board vs the PB12-NSD; from 40Hz on up, the PB1000 is expected to be at parity with its bigger brother.
Edited by Steve1981 - 6/21/13 at 10:19am
post #12 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3db View Post

May the SVS limiter is set unrealistically low from an audible perspective?

My thought: we know that the PB1000 was limiting, but the what/how/why is the question. What I would expect is that if you feed it significant infrasonic content, which it looks like Jim did, you'll trip its limiters far sooner than you might anticipate based only on looking at what it can do from 20Hz on up. I also found this to be the case in my experience with the PC12-NSD; of course its limiters were apparently more conservative inasmuch as it never chuffed or made bad noises as Jim seems to have experienced with the PB1000. Brent at S&V also encountered some issues with overdriving the PB1000, so that might be something to consider.

It's also worth noting that the material that drove the PB1000 over the edge (Bass Mechanik, Halloweener) don't appear to have been run in the LV12R review.
post #13 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

Data-bass's measurements for the PB12-NSD were lower than what SVS got in house, so that may account for some of the discrepancy. Of course, whether it delivers 103 or 100dB at 20Hz, that's not what I'd qualify as a major difference from the 102dB estimate of the LV12.
FWIW, according to Ed the PB1000 isn't down 3dB across the board vs the PB12-NSD; from 40Hz on up, the PB1000 is expected to be at parity with its bigger brother.

Well I trust Data -Bass numbers over anything else as its the least biased and is more informative. Last I checked the comparisons were being made below 40hz, but maybe I missed something? Rythmik has a good product line, Look at the FV15HP. It offers PB13U performance and some for 5xx.00 less coin. Folks can interpret Jim's reviews how ya want, but imo its pretty obvious he favors the LV12R. I also believe he mentioned it in the budget sub thread. SVS makes some great subs as we all know, but they are no longer the value/performance leader they once were. Yes their subs have the low distortion, but at the cost of some output. They could de-sensitize the limiters some at the expense of some distortion and 99% of customers would not be able to tell the difference, other than the extra output. If ya want a PB-1000 great, but it would not be my choice. The op, asked for opinion's, I offered mine.

In short, There is now way a 10" 300watt sub that is has a heavy limiter built in going to keep up with a 12" 300watt sub that has no limiter and direct servo feed back. Until some further proof is provided I will stick with what my logic tells me.

However Steve I do appreciate your input on this topic so please do not take this post offensive. smile.gif
post #14 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

However Steve I do appreciate your input on this topic so please do not take this post offensive. smile.gif

I don't and I wasn't necessarily trying to make a case for one over the other. wink.gif

Actually, having now re-read Jim's review and taking that together with Brent's thoughts @ S&V, I'm not as sure about the PB1000. The reason I'm generally so fond of SVS subs is that they are typically bulletproof performers; I know not everyone agrees, but I'm willing to sacrifice some output for the knowledge that my sub won't chuff and distort badly come time to demo what my toys can do for friends. Seems the PB1000 doesn't meet that criteria.
post #15 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Well I trust Data -Bass numbers over anything else as its the least biased and is more informative. Last I checked the comparisons were being made below 40hz, but maybe I missed something? Rythmik has a good product line, Look at the FV15HP. It offers PB13U performance and some for 5xx.00 less coin. Folks can interpret Jim's reviews how ya want, but imo its pretty obvious he favors the LV12R. I also believe he mentioned it in the budget sub thread. SVS makes some great subs as we all know, but they are no longer the value/performance leader they once were. Yes their subs have the low distortion, but at the cost of some output. They could de-sensitize the limiters some at the expense of some distortion and 99% of customers would not be able to tell the difference, other than the extra output. If ya want a PB-1000 great, but it would not be my choice. The op, asked for opinion's, I offered mine.

In short, There is now way a 10" 300watt sub that is has a heavy limiter built in going to keep up with a 12" 300watt sub that has no limiter and direct servo feed back. Until some further proof is provided I will stick with what my logic tells me.

However Steve I do appreciate your input on this topic so please do not take this post offensive. smile.gif

+1
post #16 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

I don't and I wasn't necessarily trying to make a case for one over the other. wink.gif

Actually, having now re-read Jim's review and taking that together with Brent's thoughts @ S&V, I'm not as sure about the PB1000. The reason I'm generally so fond of SVS subs is that they are typically bulletproof performers; I know not everyone agrees, but I'm willing to sacrifice some output for the knowledge that my sub won't chuff and distort badly come time to demo what my toys can do for friends. Seems the PB1000 doesn't meet that criteria.

Yes good point! Also I am not grouping the higher SVS end subs into my previous post. SVS PB12+ and PB13U are some low end producing beasts, but like you said the PB1000 does not meet that criteria. As Lectre pointed out the LV12R is similar to the PB12NSD for 589.00 shipped. Its a whole lot of sub for the money. I thought about buying one just to try it like you did the RW12 lol.
post #17 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I thought about buying one just to try it like you did the RW12 lol.

I think you might be thinking of someone else there; I've briefly owned (and not cared for) a Klipsch Synergy Sub 12, but never purchased a RW12.
post #18 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

I think you might be thinking of someone else there; I've briefly owned (and not cared for) a Klipsch Synergy Sub 12, but never purchased a RW12.


oh yea I was thinking of stevenn.
post #19 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

I don't and I wasn't necessarily trying to make a case for one over the other. wink.gif

Actually, having now re-read Jim's review and taking that together with Brent's thoughts @ S&V, I'm not as sure about the PB1000. The reason I'm generally so fond of SVS subs is that they are typically bulletproof performers; I know not everyone agrees, but I'm willing to sacrifice some output for the knowledge that my sub won't chuff and distort badly come time to demo what my toys can do for friends. Seems the PB1000 doesn't meet that criteria.

Are the problems like chuff, distorting, etc mostly found when pushing the subs hard and not so much when kept at "medium" output?
post #20 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by auceny View Post

Are the problems like chuff, distorting, etc mostly found when pushing the subs hard and not so much when kept at "medium" output?

Problems with chuffing indicate the beginning of compression, certainly not mean this in the limit.
The distortion is always present, depending on the level of thrust, will be more or less elevated and if limiter / compressor DSP stops you a certain amount of distortion vs spl permissible without damaging the unit. In this way you ensure that the subwoofer, this always under control and can avoid any possible damage spl listen to very high levels.
post #21 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

I hope Jim Wilson - who tested both subs for HTS - chimes in. The graphs don't seem to show the LV12R "blowing away" the PB-1000...but maybe I'm missing something.

From my own experience I would say no, you aren't missing something. The PB-1000 proved to be a remarkable performer, given it's size and price, and I find it hard to imagine anyone buying one would be disappointed. For me, though, the LV12R was at a slightly different level. Brian Ding has designed a sub that he could really sell for more then it does, and once you spend some quality time with the LV12R it becomes apparent.

Neither is much to look at, mind you, but both are amazing in their own right. If the size of the Rythmik isn't an issue then that one warrants special consideration.
post #22 of 73
Thanks, for your input Jim! This is exactly what I gathered from your reviews. Now could you please go this thread and explain to Mic James the pb1000 is not in the same league as the xs15.



http://www.avsforum.com/t/1476793/whats-the-best-sub-for-the-money-max-500
post #23 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Thanks, for your input Jim! This is exactly what I gathered from your reviews. Now could you please go this thread and explain to Mic James the pb1000 is not in the same league as the xs15.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1476793/whats-the-best-sub-for-the-money-max-500

I'll take a look and see what's going on over their.
post #24 of 73
Quote:
From my own experience I would say no, you aren't missing something. ... Neither is much to look at, mind you, but both are amazing in their own right. If the size of the Rythmik isn't an issue then that one warrants special consideration.
Thanks for chiming in, Jim. Much appreciated. smile.gif
post #25 of 73
Thread Starter 
Thanks Jim for your input. I'm now leaning towards the Rythmic. The only thing that may sway me back to the SVS is "logistics". As you csn see from my initial post, I'm being offered a great deal from Rythmic. My logistics concern is shipping it back to Rythmic should something go wrong with it. I live in Canada and shipping would be expensive. Iknow SVS has excellent customer service and has a distributor in Toronto. I don't know anything about customer care from Rythmic. I'm not saying snything bad about Rythmic. I just don't know anything about them.
post #26 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3db View Post

SVS PB1000 or Rythmik LV12R..narrowed it down to these two candidates.

---snip---

Which would you go for and why?

The LV12R because of output quality due to Direct Servo technology and the 15" driver.

It's your choice if you want to compromise output quality for a few shekels. Let's say you went with the PB-1000......you know you'll always wish you had purchased the LV12R and then you'll read on how in love people are with Direct Servo technology and then you'll look back on your other choice.....and buyer's remorse will set in.

In the end, it's always about the Benjamins. Without realizing it, your question morphs into: do you go with the "Big Dog" or do you go with: "Almost A Big Dog?"

(returns are part of the hassle of ownership)

The choice is yours for if you need proof, buy the PB-1000, save a few bucks and be happy or find out about Direct Servo and larger drivers vs smaller drivers.

(people who openly demand proof, tick me off as this is a discussion forum, not a court of law. if you need proof, do your own research and go with what ever makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside)

Quote:
Its not that straight forward.

It reads like you want the PB-1000 and you're trying to convince yourself you're not going be shortchanging yourself over a few dollars. The price difference is ninety bucks or the price of a fill-up for a pick-up truck. So, in my opinion, what this all boils down to is, the price of a tank of gas.

Just saying.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 6/22/13 at 7:31am
post #27 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Yes their subs have the low distortion, but at the cost of some output. They could de-sensitize the limiters some at the expense of some distortion and 99% of customers would not be able to tell the difference, other than the extra output.

I don't know if that's true that people would not be able to tell the difference, but that is the design characteristic of the SVS subs: use DSP to limit the output of the sub so that it never reaches high levels of distortion or distresses.

Thus it is a personal listening preference, and I get it, even if bassheads who only care about max SPL at any level of distortion do not wink.gif
post #28 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

The LV12R because of output quality due to Direct Servo technology and the 15" driver.

12" driver.

Although I agree for the extra $90, if it's not a burden, then why not get the direct servo technology?
post #29 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

12" driver.

Although I agree for the extra $90, if it's not a burden, then why not get the direct servo technology?

Sorry, yes, got carried away, 12" driver.

post #30 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

I don't know if that's true that people would not be able to tell the difference, but that is the design characteristic of the SVS subs: use DSP to limit the output of the sub so that it never reaches high levels of distortion or distresses.

Thus it is a personal listening preference, and I get it, even if bassheads who only care about max SPL at any level of distortion do not wink.gif

I would be willing to wager svs could back the limiter off a touch and still maintain low distortion with more output. I am.not saying do away with it, but i am saying in most cases 15% thd will not noticeable over 10% at loud volumes. I have experienced velodyne and paradigm subs with limiters and didnt care for it at all. I like to be the govenor over my system...smile.gif
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  • SVS PB1000 or Rythmik LV12R..narrowed it down to these two candidates. Read more: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-audio-subwoofers/68125-svs-pb1000-rythmik-lv12r-narrowed-down-these-two-candidates.html#ixzz2WqxJyNV7
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › SVS PB1000 or Rythmik LV12R..narrowed it down to these two candidates. Read more: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-audio-subwoofers/68125-svs-pb1000-rythmik-lv12r-narrowed-down-these-two-candidates.html#ixzz2WqxJyNV7