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SONY VPL-HW55ES : New SXRD Model from SONY IFA BERLIN 2013 - Page 4

post #91 of 398
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

If we line up the JVC, Sony, Epson and any DLP, there is an obvious difference in perceived flicker in the order that I listed.

I'm sensitive to refresh rate, the perception of the flicker never goes away for me on the JVC and Sony. It's quite good on the Epson and simply perfect on the DLP's.

Without the glasses, look at the HW50, Mitsubishi HC5 and BQ W7000 in 3D mode.

Sony HW50 (click)

Mitsubishi HC5 (click)

BQ W7000 (click)

Even before we put the glasses on, there is a noticeable flicker on the screen when in 3D mode on the SXRD models. The DLP image is rock solid, it looks as solid as a 2D image.

I can see why those sensitive to flicker would want to see an improvement here on the new HW55.

I assume we don't know enough about the HW55 yet to find out if anything has improved there?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

As an example for 30 Hz or 60 Hz 3D input and with the projector operating at 240 Hz, the Sony HW30es will display one black frame between each video frame (or perhaps a better way to is to consider this a transition frame, during which time both lens of the 3D glasses must become opaque). This is necessary since the projector's LCoS chip take some overwrite the previous image with the new image. This isn't an issue with 2D video, but with 3D, where you alternate between right and left images the viewer must not see this transition otherwise there would be lots of 3D crosstalk. Thus the following frames are displayed during 1/60 sec. with each frame being 1/240 sec. long (i.e., refreshed at 240 Hz)

Right image -->blanking frame--->Left image--->blanking frame


Thus for each 1/60 sec. each eye is only seeing one video frame and the other 3/4 of the time it is seeing black giving a 25% duty cycle.


For the 3LCD, using the Epson 480 Hz. chips, they increase the duty cycles by displaying the following frame sequence each 1/60 sec. with each frame only be 1/480 sec. long:

Right image-->Right image-->Right image-->blanking frame-->Left image-->Left image-->Left image-->blanking frame

With this scheme the length of the blanking frame is only 1/2 as long as it is with Sony's 240 Hz projectors. For each 1/60 sec. each eye is seeing a video frame displayed for 3/8 of the time or a duty cycle of 37.5%.

Very helpful information, thank you. It makes more sense to my feeble mind, now. smile.gif

I find it interesting that very few people complain about the flicker. I was testing out Tintin 3D on Blu-ray last night, and how people can't notice the flicker on the HW30/HW50 etc is beyond me... It's more obvious than anything. I will admit that I'm able to sort-of tune it out after a while, but it's really, REALLY there. If you're very sensitive to flicker, I can wholeheartedly NOT recommend the Sonys for 3D.

That said, it's very impressive in terms of crosstalk. Even with the glasses set to maximum brightness, the crosstalk is very minimal, miles better than the Panasonic PT-AE8000U. Still, the Panasonic wins on standard 24p motion and flicker reduction. Can't have it all, but I'm glad I'm getting to experience the SXRDs since it really is a step in the right direction. Sounds like the DLPs are potentially even better, but I see rainbows!
post #92 of 398
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post

I find it interesting that very few people complain about the flicker. I was testing out Tintin 3D on Blu-ray last night, and how people can't notice the flicker on the HW30/HW50 etc is beyond me... It's more obvious than anything. I will admit that I'm able to sort-of tune it out after a while, but it's really, REALLY there. If you're very sensitive to flicker, I can wholeheartedly NOT recommend the Sonys for 3D.
You must be really sensitive to flicker. My wife and I just watched TinTin a couple weeks ago and I did not notice any flicker. I've used a couple scenes as demo material too as I think the 3D is really good.
post #93 of 398
Quote:
Originally Posted by blipszyc View Post

You must be really sensitive to flicker. My wife and I just watched TinTin a couple weeks ago and I did not notice any flicker. I've used a couple scenes as demo material too as I think the 3D is really good.

Can't say I necessarily disagree with you. However, the flicker is so obvious it's hard for me to imagine anyone NOT noticing it. It's not as if it was slight, or that I had to go looking for it. And, I mean absolutely no disrespect by this - but people such as you are EXACTLY the reason why I can't see the flicker issue getting addressed on the Sonys anytime soon. frown.gif . If the majority don't notice it, then it probably doesn't matter to Sony.

The video, posted above, shows pretty much exactly what I see:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjtCzs1oraM

How do people not notice that?!
post #94 of 398
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post

Can't say I necessarily disagree with you. However, the flicker is so obvious it's hard for me to imagine anyone NOT noticing it. It's not as if it was slight, or that I had to go looking for it. And, I mean absolutely no disrespect by this - but people such as you are EXACTLY the reason why I can't see the flicker issue getting addressed on the Sonys anytime soon. frown.gif . If the majority don't notice it, then it probably doesn't matter to Sony.

The video, posted above, shows pretty much exactly what I see:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjtCzs1oraM

How do people not notice that?!

The same way some people do not see RBE with a DLP and some people see it so bad that they get a headache in just a few minutes. I looked at the video. Most people do not see anything at all like that.
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post #95 of 398
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

The same way some people do not see RBE with a DLP and some people see it so bad that they get a headache in just a few minutes. I looked at the video. Most people do not see anything at all like that.

+1. I'm the unlucky few who do see RBE; my wife is worse; she cannot watch it, so we've LCoS.
post #96 of 398
The flicker in the video is exaggerated by the CCD in the camera, but it does show a distinct difference between the SXRD panels and DLP which clearly has a much higher refresh rate in 3D mode.

This is a topic I brought up when I first received my RS40 in 2010, the only previous experience was a 3D DLP projector. I thought something was wrong since the flicker was very intense for me on the JVC's.

putting the math aside, if we line up the various models, the perceived flicker through the glasses (for those that are sensitive to it) is in this order:

JVC < Sony / Mitsubishi < Epson < Any DLP

The various DLP models are much less likely to display RBE in 3D mode than in regular 2D. A DLP projector like the Sharp 30K (5x color wheel) has a rock solid image through the glasses and no perceivable RBE in 3D mode (i am hyper sensitive to both)


I agree that the majority of end users will not see the flicker as an obvious issue, but I'm convinced that it has a subliminal effect on those that complain about headaches and discomfort when viewing 3D, especially for extended periods of time. The Sharp 30K is one the few 3D projector i've tested than I can watch 3D for hours on end and my eyes / brain are ok with it. The Epson is also excellent for a non-DLP - closer to the DLP performance than the others.

I think it would be unlikely for the upcoming HW55 to have a specific change in this area vs. the last 3 models (HW30/HW50/VW95).
post #97 of 398
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonbud0 View Post

+1. I'm the unlucky few who do see RBE; my wife is worse; she cannot watch it, so we've LCoS.

I see rainbows all the time. My wife didn't used to, but after I pointed it out to her, it definitely caused some strife in our marriage as she tells me, "I ruined DLPs for her." Oops....

Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

The flicker in the video is exaggerated by the CCD in the camera, but it does show a distinct difference between the SXRD panels and DLP which clearly has a much higher refresh rate in 3D mode.

This is a topic I brought up when I first received my RS40 in 2010, the only previous experience was a 3D DLP projector. I thought something was wrong since the flicker was very intense for me on the JVC's.

putting the math aside, if we line up the various models, the perceived flicker through the glasses (for those that are sensitive to it) is in this order:

JVC < Sony / Mitsubishi < Epson < Any DLP

The various DLP models are much less likely to display RBE in 3D mode than in regular 2D. A DLP projector like the Sharp 30K (5x color wheel) has a rock solid image through the glasses and no perceivable RBE in 3D mode (i am hyper sensitive to both)


I agree that the majority of end users will not see the flicker as an obvious issue, but I'm convinced that it has a subliminal effect on those that complain about headaches and discomfort when viewing 3D, especially for extended periods of time. The Sharp 30K is one the few 3D projector i've tested than I can watch 3D for hours on end and my eyes / brain are ok with it. The Epson is also excellent for a non-DLP - closer to the DLP performance than the others.

I think it would be unlikely for the upcoming HW55 to have a specific change in this area vs. the last 3 models (HW30/HW50/VW95).

Yeah seems unlikely that the HW55 will change things up much. And yes, those people who say they experience no flicker, but DO experience headaches etc are surely not consciously aware of the flicker, but their brain surely is. I will say the Sony affects my head noticeably, whereas with the Panasonic PT-AE8000U I could watch an entire movie with no ill effect to my head (except suffering with the ridiculous crosstalk).
post #98 of 398
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post

I see rainbows all the time. My wife didn't used to, but after I pointed it out to her, it definitely caused some strife in our marriage as she tells me, "I ruined DLPs for her." Oops....
Yeah seems unlikely that the HW55 will change things up much. And yes, those people who say they experience no flicker, but DO experience headaches etc are surely not consciously aware of the flicker, but their brain surely is. I will say the Sony affects my head noticeably, whereas with the Panasonic PT-AE8000U I could watch an entire movie with no ill effect to my head (except suffering with the ridiculous crosstalk).

Has anyone experimented to see if the flicker is better/worse/unchanged switching from a 1080P/60HZ to a 1080P/24Hz input signal.
post #99 of 398
Quote:
Originally Posted by ktoolsie View Post

Has anyone experimented to see if the flicker is better/worse/unchanged switching from a 1080P/60HZ to a 1080P/24Hz input signal.

I would guess it would be the same. For me, it doesn't matter, since all my 3D material is 1080p/i /24p.

A lot of people won't notice it (don't notice it). Sadly, I do. So it goes.
post #100 of 398
Thread Starter 
3 Days left wink.gif
post #101 of 398
Quote:
Originally Posted by kraine View Post

3 Days left wink.gif

Ugghhh, the wait is almost over. It's going to be interesting to see what JVC, Sony, & Epson have up their sleeves at IFA. I would love to see Epson release their 'Reflective LCD' tech this year. JVC & Sony will probably see minor upgrades in PQ over last years models. With 4K and laser light source tech being so close to becoming adopted by the masses, I just don't see why a Manufacturer would dump loads of $$$ into R&D for 2K & UHP based lamp tech.

Regardless, my new home is currently being built (scheduled for completion in December) and one of these PJ's will be gracing my theater/living room this year. biggrin.gif
post #102 of 398
Thread Starter 
post #103 of 398
Is that really a 55 in the video? Besides the white color (which maybe is offered outside of the US) it looked like a 50.
post #104 of 398
So I guess hdmi 2.0 is really the only news here? I had thought motorized controls were coming to this mid range.... too bad!
post #105 of 398
Thread Starter 
Yes there is only a few changes on the HW55ES (3D RF Glasses, WHMDI optionnal)
post #106 of 398
If those are the only changes, I'm really glad I didn't wait and bought the 50es
post #107 of 398
Thread Starter 
So the VPL-HW55ES is expected to come in Europe by the end of October.
Edited by kraine - 9/4/13 at 10:01am
post #108 of 398
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

So I guess hdmi 2.0 is really the only news here? I had thought motorized controls were coming to this mid range.... too bad!

I think a lot of people were expecting this to be a bigger upgrade, I thought maybe a recycle of the VW95 chassis with motorized controls.

it will be curious to hear if they tweaked the RC software in this upcoming model.
post #109 of 398
Any guesses as to the effect on pricing of hw50es and if there is effect on pricing when it might occur ? I held out on hw50es pending more info on 55es.
post #110 of 398
So there is no motorized lens memory system for CIH?
post #111 of 398
Thread Starter 
Nope the first informations were false.
post #112 of 398
That's a let down. I have almost finished my theater and I had my eye on this projector as a good all around performer (Based on the 50es) and would have been perfect with my 2.35 screen. Would have preordered it but will have to wait for more updates. Thanks for sharing with everyone kraine!
post #113 of 398
Quote:
Originally Posted by kraine View Post

Yes there is only a few changes on the HW55ES (3D RF Glasses, WHMDI optionnal)
It looks like there is still an IR transmitter on the front of the unit. This must be for backward compatibility with existing glasses if they're going to a RF system. WHDMI is nice for those who have older cables in their walls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baloo_btru View Post

If those are the only changes, I'm really glad I didn't wait and bought the 50es
Agreed. Not even sure why they came out with the 55.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kraine View Post

Nope the first informations were false.
Guess this means I need to keep saving up for a Radiance processor. smile.gif
post #114 of 398
Quote:
Originally Posted by baloo_btru View Post

If those are the only changes, I'm really glad I didn't wait and bought the 50es


+1 You got that right, alot of Monday morning quarterbacking after I ordered HW50. Well see you guys next year.
post #115 of 398
Quote:
Originally Posted by booga24 View Post

+1 You got that right, alot of Monday morning quarterbacking after I ordered HW50. Well see you guys next year.

Well FWIW I'm sure it's a "better" projector, and it does have some useful features (notably the RF 3d). If I was buying a projector now, I would wait a month and then decide after knowing the pricing in the US. HW50 will drop in price and 55 should be similar to current HW50 price.

There are some marginal improvements in the contrast and I'm sure the software is upgraded too. That wasn't worth a few hundred dollars and several months to me, but I can see how it may be to others.
post #116 of 398
Quote:
Originally Posted by blipszyc View Post

WHDMI is nice for those who have older cables in their walls.
+1

This is exactly my case RGB cables for my old Infocus 7200 are stucked in the the walls...
post #117 of 398
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertSmith8 View Post

+1

This is exactly my case RGB cables for my old Infocus 7200 are stucked in the the walls...

Just secure one end of an HDMI cable to one end of the RGB cable and pull the RGB cable w/ HDMI attached out of the wall until you get to the section where you secured the two.

Or it you want both, attach a piece of strong pull string to the RGB and pull it through, then attach both RGB and HDMI to the pull string and pull them both through. Voila!

Wireless HDMI isn't that great from what I've been told. Packet loss and framerate drops due to interference seem to be an issue. Definitely not something you want if you're a twitch gamer, or just appreciate a solid connection. That's just my 10 cents...
post #118 of 398
"Sony also dropped a Full HD 3D model, the VPL-HW55ES projector, which replaces the VPL-HW50ES as its top 1080p dog while using the same SXRD tech. It boasts 1,700 ANSI-lumens, a 120,000:1 contrast ratio, a 5,000 hour lamp, an optical engine upgrade and Reality Creation technology."

Credit: Engadget Be sure to click on the button at the bottom of the page 'Show Full PR Text'.

And more info/details listed here: ProjectorReviews
Edited by Mr. Hatcher - 9/5/13 at 7:46am
post #119 of 398
The 5000 hour lamp is interesting. Does Sony usually give lamp ratings? I thought they didn't.
post #120 of 398
Is it HDMI 2.0? I also wonder what the term "new sxrd" means. Is it newer than what the hw50 has? If these are both true then it is indeed an upgrade from the hw50.
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