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Speakers for 100% movies/TV (~$3K to $5K budget) - Page 2

post #31 of 257
Quote:
It seems to be a common theme to recommend saving money on front speakers in order to buy bigger, better subs. What does the unofficial budget priority hierarchy look like for home theater? Subwoofer >> Center >> L/R >> Surround?
Generally-speaking, good mains + a couple of good subs (especially in a larger room) is the priority. Then a matching CC speaker, then surrounds.

A pair of good bookshelf speakers will run you less than a pair of good subs, which is why there's an emphasis on budgeting more for your subs.

I also like to suggest shopping gently-used for speakers, as you can often get some great gear at great prices. For subs, I would generally go new.
post #32 of 257
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transmaniacon View Post

HSU is a great choice, and that sub is fantastic. If you had two it would really provide a wonderful experience. The HSU's are easy to drive and would work well in a larger space.

Per the update on my last post, it seems I could use multiple center channels for LCR since I have a large room; although, I'm not sure if that would even be necessary.

Do you think I'd be better off with 2x HSU VTF-15Hs or a single Rythmik FV15HP? is there any way to roughly guesstimate which option would be better (i.e. without having to buy all three and test them)? I'm assuming there has to be some sort of approximation as to how much pressurization each setup could generate.
post #33 of 257
Well the Rythmik digs deeper and might have a higher output, but two VTF-15Hs would probably give you a smoother response and more even bass in your room. Sub placement is very crucial and you want to make sure they are set up correctly. If you can demo them, give it a shot, for something that expensive you want to be sure.
post #34 of 257
HSU has a great reputation and a good value with thier prices.
Your room is extremely large so a small to medium system may end with regret.
I would spend the $5 grand on 2 speakers(L&R) and a subwoofer to start. Later on add the center then the rear/side surrounds.
An example would be JTR 228 x 2 & a powered Cap 2400. Later when $$$ permits add another 228 for the center. Next purchase would be 2 Slanted 8s for surrounds.
Even if it takes 2 years at least you are buying equipment that will still be overwhelming 5 years down the road and it will help fill 6000 cu ft with sound. That will be the real task with a room that size.
Another Example is a pair of Tekton Pendragons with a SubM HP and so on with the center and surrounds.(I know about Tektons lead times)smile.gif
A high powered ported subwoofer will give you the best chance at filling that room with bass. High Efficiency speakers will not require an amp which saves money.
The classified section on here can offer a good value on a complete 5.1 system.
It will really just depend on your goals and expectations but usually a person's first system is the one the learn with.
Buying equipment you can keep and add to later is usually better than settling on what you can afford all at once.smile.gif
2 cents from someone who has burnt himself before.
Chris

PowerSoundAudio XS30 at 1150 shipped is a good deal. Rythmik and HSU have good values too.
Edited by countryWV - 6/24/13 at 12:50pm
post #35 of 257
Thread Starter 
FYI: I've had multiple AV consultants visit my house and you guys are 100 times better than them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

They don't look bad, but using a two woofer center and a single woofer L/R is a mismatch, using the dual woofer HC-1 in all three positions makes a lot more sense.
So, say I used three HSU center channels - which look more powerful than the bookshelves anyway - I'm *guessing* I'd be content with the sound that came out, assuming I demo them. Why would someone (like myself) want to pay $1500 for a pair of B&W CM5s? It seems like there has got to be something there besides preferential differences.
post #36 of 257
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

Your room is extremely large so a small to medium system may end with regret.
I would spend the $5 grand on 2 speakers(L&R) and a subwoofer to start. Later on add the center then the rear/side surrounds.
An example would be JTR 228 x 2 & a powered Cap 2400. Later when $$$ permits add another 228 for the center. Next purchase would be 2 Slanted 8s for surrounds.
Even if it takes 2 years at least you are buying equipment that will still be overwhelming 5 years down the road and it will help fill 6000 cu ft with sound. That will be the real task with a room that size.

This seems like sound (ha, pun) logic.

You seem familiar with JTR speakers. Do you think a single Cap 2400 would be enough for my room? Or should I expect to pick up another one down the road? How does it compare to the aforementioned Rythmik or HSU subs?
post #37 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by jklick View Post

Why would someone (like myself) want to pay $1500 for a pair of B&W CM5s? It seems like there has got to be something there besides preferential differences.
There may be something 'there', there may not. With adequate data I could say, but getting data from manufacturers is like pulling teeth...from Great White sharks.
post #38 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by jklick View Post

This seems like sound (ha, pun) logic.

You seem familiar with JTR speakers. Do you think a single Cap 2400 would be enough for my room? Or should I expect to pick up another one down the road? How does it compare to the aforementioned Rythmik or HSU subs?
If its not enough it will be a great start and down the road you can pick up a second one if needed. I would take it over any 2 of the other options I have seen recommended. What happens if you do purchase 2 HSU right now only to find out that its balanced but there is just not enough presence? Add 2 more? Your 6000 cu ft room should not be overlooked!!!eek.gif
That is why I would start at the top and look to the future with excitement and anticipation instead of the past with regret.
Chris
post #39 of 257
Honestly, if you're willing to put the work into DiY, you can get twice the system for the same price. 1.5k for subs is plenty if you build your own. And the seos flatpacks can be done fairly easily too for mains/surround. Fusion 15s for LCR and Alchemy 8 for surrounds. If you have space make a tapped horn or two. If you don't- go pick up some Dayton 18s and rock some sealed.
post #40 of 257
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormwind13 View Post

Honestly, if you're willing to put the work into DiY, you can get twice the system for the same price. 1.5k for subs is plenty if you build your own. And the seos flatpacks can be done fairly easily too for mains/surround. Fusion 15s for LCR and Alchemy 8 for surrounds. If you have space make a tapped horn or two. If you don't- go pick up some Dayton 18s and rock some sealed.
This isn't an option I had considered. Honestly, I'm not very handy (my wife can testify of that :P), but the price difference is enticing. I'm guessing that I'd be responsible for both the build quality as well as any technical issues that come up, correct? Would there be a sound quality difference? I'm also assuming that I'd be in charge of making them aesthetically pleasing?
post #41 of 257
There will be a significant sound quality advantage of the SEOS vs most mainstream offerings until you go very high end. The flat packs at diysoundgroup.com make assembly easy- not much woodworking to do unless you are building big horn subs. Bill F. who has been replying to this thread has a site where he sells plans for all kinds of diy projects too.
post #42 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by jklick View Post

This isn't an option I had considered. Honestly, I'm not very handy (my wife can testify of that :P), but the price difference is enticing. I'm guessing that I'd be responsible for both the build quality as well as any technical issues that come up, correct? Would there be a sound quality difference? I'm also assuming that I'd be in charge of making them aesthetically pleasing?

"aesthetically pleasing"

That is the tough part.
Reply
Reply
post #43 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by jklick View Post

This isn't an option I had considered. Honestly, I'm not very handy (my wife can testify of that :P), but the price difference is enticing. I'm guessing that I'd be responsible for both the build quality as well as any technical issues that come up, correct? Would there be a sound quality difference? I'm also assuming that I'd be in charge of making them aesthetically pleasing?

I have no skills which is why the flat packs from DIY sound group are so great. I assembled 8 subs with help getting started from a friend and its one of the best decisions I've made in this hobby. Check links in my sig if curious.
post #44 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by jklick View Post

I didn't know that it was even possible to do a phantom center setup until I demoed some B&W CM5's last week. I couldn't even tell there wasn't a center channel. It was a fantastic little ventriloquism act and not every speaker can do it effectively. I'll have to inquire from some 228HT owners.

The 228HT's are awesome speakers but might really leave your budget thin for the rest of your setup. I absolutely love mine though, and I'm one of those 100% movies guy. Although I will admit I have started to throw on a few CD's down in the theatre room to listen too music after getting the new JTR setup.
post #45 of 257
For movies only, why not get some THX Ultra2 certified speakers, like the Klipsch 650-THX speakers that have superb on-axis and off-axis measurements plus play to THX Ultra2 standard, which is very high movie standard.

The dealer cost on those are about under $700 each, so a nice friendly dealer might be able to help you out there. wink.gifwink.gif
post #46 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

For movies only, why not get some THX Ultra2 certified speakers, like the Klipsch 650-THX speakers that have superb on-axis and off-axis measurements plus play to THX Ultra2 standard, which is very high movie standard.

The dealer cost on those are about under $700 each, so a nice friendly dealer might be able to help you out there. wink.gifwink.gif

Dealer cost is $700ea or the OP could get them for $700ea?
post #47 of 257
You may want to check out what Atlantic Technology has to offer. They have quite a few packages that are designed by room size. For HT their speakers are some of the best in the market.smile.gif
post #48 of 257
Atlantic Technology can't come anywhere close to the JTR Noesis or the SEOS speakers. I like AT, and most of my speakers right now are AT speakers, but they aren't going to be able to fill that room up like the JTRs would.
post #49 of 257
First off, I would drop those CM-5's from your list, as there are many other speakers out there for less money that also offer significantly better performance. You might give some serious thought to buying some of the Seos-flat packs. They are super easy to assemble and offer much better performance than the CM-5's or anything from the likes of Polk, AT, ect...they should also best those HSU's and just about anything in the Klipsch reference lineup, depending on which Seos flat pack you go with.
post #50 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

For movies only, why not get some THX Ultra2 certified speakers, like the Klipsch 650-THX speakers that have superb on-axis and off-axis measurements plus play to THX Ultra2 standard, which is very high movie standard.

The dealer cost on those are about under $700 each, so a nice friendly dealer might be able to help you out there. wink.gifwink.gif
Good Mid morning ADTG
I have just been assuming but now a chance to ask this question. If a manufacture sells a speaker to a dealer for $700 (MSRP $1499) and this speaker is THX Ultra2 certified with on and off axis measurements, How much of the $700 is actually spent on the speakers parts and components?
My guess would be $150 - $ 200 tops. I have always viewed the components as the most important part of the speakers. How does $150 worth of components translate into a THX Ultra2 certified speaker that lists for $1499? IMO This would be an example of Not getting your moneys worth. I understand buying used would be less but someone bought new in order to sell used. In most cases someone bit the MSRP bullet and thanks to them not being satisfied (something is disagreeable or they would not be selling them)they can now be bought at a price reduction on the used market.
Now I understand inside deals and frequent buyer discounts but that is not the normal for most of us.
With the numbers you provided it offered me a chance to ask a question and get a differenr perspective then my own.
Thanks in advance for any opinions on the above idea.
Chris
post #51 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post


Good Mid morning ADTG
I have just been assuming but now a chance to ask this question. If a manufacture sells a speaker to a dealer for $700 (MSRP $1499) and this speaker is THX Ultra2 certified with on and off axis measurements, How much of the $700 is actually spent on the speakers parts and components?
My guess would be $150 - $ 200 tops. I have always viewed the components as the most important part of the speakers. How does $150 worth of components translate into a THX Ultra2 certified speaker that lists for $1499? IMO This would be an example of Not getting your moneys worth. I understand buying used would be less but someone bought new in order to sell used. In most cases someone bit the MSRP bullet and thanks to them not being satisfied (something is disagreeable or they would not be selling them)they can now be bought at a price reduction on the used market.
Now I understand inside deals and frequent buyer discounts but that is not the normal for most of us.
With the numbers you provided it offered me a chance to ask a question and get a differenr perspective then my own.
Thanks in advance for any opinions on the above idea.
Chris
What's your point. Are we now supposed to judge a speakers value based on the price of raw components?
post #52 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by crn3371 View Post

What's your point. Are we now supposed to judge a speakers value based on the price of raw components?
If you knew what the component cost is for most speakers you'd be shocked, and the more expensive the speaker the more shocked you'd be. As for what comprises the greatest percentage of the price of most speakers, it's not manufacturing, it's marketing and distribution. When you remove marketing and distribution from the price you get a lot more speaker for your money. That's what ID companies do. Remove labor from the manufacturing cost and you get even more speaker for your money. That's what DIY does.
post #53 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by crn3371 View Post

What's your point. Are we now supposed to judge a speakers value based on the price of raw components?
To judge a speakers value, not just sound, Yes. Most of the components ID companies use can be price verified. A Speaker that would cost me $1500 to build myself looks to be a better value at $2250 than it would at $6000.
There is no one criteria a speaker can based on but value is an important aspect that we all must decide.smile.gif
I do not enjoy paying $$$$ for marketing, advertisement and dealer profit. ID companies allow me another purchasing option. Agree or not ID companies can charge less and offer more.
Chris
Edited by countryWV - 6/25/13 at 9:24am
post #54 of 257
countryWV, you're also forgetting R&D costs.

It takes a lot of man hours and resources to build a product. Though when a certain product line is just updated yearly or so, it's just minor tweaks.

But when you build a product from the ground up, it's very time consuming and expensive.

The THX Ultra2 system is one of them. It has not been updated since it's initial offering and for good reason. The Reference line has.
post #55 of 257
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

The 228HT's are awesome speakers but might really leave your budget thin for the rest of your setup. I absolutely love mine though, and I'm one of those 100% movies guy..
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

For movies only, why not get some THX Ultra2 certified speakers, like the Klipsch 650-THX speakers that have superb on-axis and off-axis measurements plus play to THX Ultra2 standard, which is very high movie standard.

I'm getting a good deal on the KL-650-THX (~$800 a piece), so I think I'm going to steer away from the 228HT's.

As a complete update, I'm leaning towards 3x KL-650-TX for LCR, 2x KL-525-THX for surrounds, and 2x PB12-NSD for subs. I'll be able to get this for under $5K and I'm inclined to believe that it will give a great experience for the Mrs. and I (and our guests). After I see how it goes, I may end up wanting to upgrade to a 7.1 and/or add a couple more subs.
post #56 of 257
To me, that
Quote:
Originally Posted by jklick View Post


I'm getting a good deal on the KL-650-THX (~$800 a piece), so I think I'm going to steer away from the 228HT's.

As a complete update, I'm leaning towards 3x KL-650-TX for LCR, 2x KL-525-THX for surrounds, and 2x PB12-NSD for subs. I'll be able to get this for under $5K and I'm inclined to believe that it will give a great experience for the Mrs. and I (and our guests). After I see how it goes, I may end up wanting to upgrade to a 7.1 and/or add a couple more subs.

To me, going with the three KL-650's for the LCR's and two KS-525's for surrounds is not a very good use of that $5,000.00 that you have to spend. You could get better performance out of something like 5 of the Seos based speakers, for a cheaper price. I would go with the Seos-12+DNA-360+JBL-2226 driver/horn combo for the LCR's then use some of the smaller ones for the rears. You can get those in a kit form that requires only using glue to assemble them!

Not only would these Seos speakers sound better, but they also will leave you with enough leftover funds for some really nice subwoofers! You can also go with a kit for the subs too! I would recommend a pair of Dayton HO18's with the flat pack offered from DIYSG. These would stomp on most commercial made SUbs!
post #57 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

To me, that
To me, going with the three KL-650's for the LCR's and two KS-525's for surrounds is not a very good use of that $5,000.00 that you have to spend. You could get better performance out of something like 5 of the Seos based speakers, for a cheaper price. I would go with the Seos-12+DNA-360+JBL-2226 driver/horn combo for the LCR's then use some of the smaller ones for the rears. You can get those in a kit form that requires only using glue to assemble them!

Not only would these Seos speakers sound better, but they also will leave you with enough leftover funds for some really nice subwoofers! You can also go with a kit for the subs too! I would recommend a pair of Dayton HO18's with the flat pack offered from DIYSG. These would stomp on most commercial made SUbs!

What he said.
post #58 of 257
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

To me, that
To me, going with the three KL-650's for the LCR's and two KS-525's for surrounds is not a very good use of that $5,000.00 that you have to spend. You could get better performance out of something like 5 of the Seos based speakers, for a cheaper price. I would go with the Seos-12+DNA-360+JBL-2226 driver/horn combo for the LCR's then use some of the smaller ones for the rears. You can get those in a kit form that requires only using glue to assemble them!

Not only would these Seos speakers sound better, but they also will leave you with enough leftover funds for some really nice subwoofers! You can also go with a kit for the subs too! I would recommend a pair of Dayton HO18's with the flat pack offered from DIYSG. These would stomp on most commercial made SUbs!

Here's how my brain works:
  • How much time should I expect it to take me to build these?
  • Is it possible to build them incorrectly or sub-optimally, resulting in poorer performance or even technical issues?
  • What will it take (resources and time) for me to make the speakers aesthetically pleasing?
  • What happens when there's a technical issue? Who supports it? How much time will it take me to research and remedy problems I run into?
  • If I don't spend time building and maintaining my speakers, what else could I do with that time (i.e. opportunity cost)?

I trust what you're saying, but I think it might just be that I don't fit the persona/profile of a DIY person. I have many DIY friends and they often do it for one of two reasons: it's a hobby or they want to save money. If I wanted to turn DIY speakers into another hobby of mine, I think it would work out. Otherwise, I think I've hit a tipping point where time is a more limited resource than money, where I'll often spend money in order to essentially "buy" time. I often put a lot of initial time into researching something (e.g. speakers, cars, computers, etc.) and love doing so, but once I make a decision, I just need it to work so I can focus on other things.
post #59 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by jklick View Post

Here's how my brain works:
  • How much time should I expect it to take me to build these?
  • Is it possible to build them incorrectly or sub-optimally, resulting in poorer performance or even technical issues?
  • What will it take (resources and time) for me to make the speakers aesthetically pleasing?
  • What happens when there's a technical issue? Who supports it? How much time will it take me to research and remedy problems I run into?
  • If I don't spend time building and maintaining my speakers, what else could I do with that time (i.e. opportunity cost)?

I trust what you're saying, but I think it might just be that I don't fit the persona/profile of a DIY person. I have many DIY friends and they often do it for one of two reasons: it's a hobby or they want to save money. If I wanted to turn DIY speakers into another hobby of mine, I think it would work out. Otherwise, I think I've hit a tipping point where time is a more limited resource than money, where I'll often spend money in order to essentially "buy" time. I often put a lot of initial time into researching something (e.g. speakers, cars, computers, etc.) and love doing so, but once I make a decision, I just need it to work so I can focus on other things.


If that be the case, I would strongly suggest increasing your budget a little and going larger on the subs. I'm sure the Klipsch THX speakers can keep up- but the PB12-nsd duals would likely fall behind. Better to do it right the first time vs buying it, getting upgradeitis 3 months down the road and spending a lot more then you would have if you had gotten the right stuff the first time.
post #60 of 257
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormwind13 View Post

If that be the case, I would strongly suggest increasing your budget a little and going larger on the subs. I'm sure the Klipsch THX speakers can keep up- but the PB12-nsd duals would likely fall behind. Better to do it right the first time vs buying it, getting upgradeitis 3 months down the road and spending a lot more then you would have if you had gotten the right stuff the first time.

How much larger are you thinking? What would be the effect I'm trying to achieve (so that I know if I'm successful or not)?

I'm used to using an 8" sub in my living room and was hoping that two superb 12" subs would make me very happy, even with the increase in room size. However, this isn't my realm of expertise, so any wisdom you have to offer would be wonderful.

Here's a short - slightly incomplete - list which I obtained from another thread, which I've been using:

Subwoofer Performance

CEA Standard (THD <10%, 2 Meters) SPL @ 20/32/40/50/63 Hz:
$1200 B&W ASW-610XP: 85.1/96.1/101.5/105.9/108.9 dB
$500 EMP ES1010i: 85.0/97.0/102.5/106.0/105.0
$700 Emotiva X-Ref 12: 81.0/99.1/103.5/107.6/108.5
$1600 Klipsch SW-311: 84.2/102.6/105.3/108.6/111.4
$769 SVS PB12-NSD: 103.2/105.9/106.5/107.3/108.0
$4000 Velodyne DD15+: 97.0/102.0/109.0/109.0/112.0
$900 Aperion Bravus II 12D: 87.0/105.3/109.8/112.6/112.2
$879 Velodyne EQ-MAX15: 84.8/104.2/110.0/114.2/114.8
$1,200 RBH SX-12: 87.7/108.0/111.1/113.7/112.7
$740 Outlaw LFM-1EX: 101.0/110.7/112.3/113.7/113.8
$800 Power Sound XV15: 102.7/109.6/113.7/116.6/114.7
$800 Epik Empire: 102.2/109.7/113.2/116.4/119.2
$2200 JL Audio F112: 92.8/112.4/116.2/113.3/117.6
$1700 Funk FW12X: 107.0/112.4/114.0/113.9/113.1
$1400 SVS PB12+: 107.0/111.5/114.3/115.3/115.3
$9,000 Paradigm Sig Sub2: 106.4/109.9/113.2/116.9/120.2
$1022 Hsu VTF-15H: 103.9/113.0/115.7/115.7/115.6
$5,000 Velodyne DD18+: 103.4/113.0/115.8/116.8/115.3
$2,000 SVS PB13 Ultra: 110.6/113.5/115.5/117.5/117.8
$1,400 Rythmik FV15HP: 108.1/117.0/119.5/119.1/118.8
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