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Speakers for 100% movies/TV (~$3K to $5K budget) - Page 3

post #61 of 257
This is one area where you may not want to forego DiY, you can do quad dayton 18 HO from parts express and grab 4 flat packs from diysoundgroup. Power em with a CV-5000 amp.

So, about a grand on the drivers, $120 x 4 on flat packs, and 799 on the amp. You would be looking at at LEAST double the performance, if not more. Finish em in black to match the klipsch, duratex or w/e works.
You would have full warranty on the drivers and the amp. You would be spending about $1000 more, but the flat packs are easy as hell to assemble- and the performance will blow the SVS out of the water.



If you were looking into commercial offerings, I would grab a pair of JTR Captivators+ an inuke amp. Or a captivator S2 powered at 2999.

This is just my opinion but the 2 most important speakers in your home theater are your center channel and your subwoofer. You really don't want to slouch in the subwoofer dept, you will regret it in the end.



Alternatively, if you have the space, a pair of lilmike cinema f20s would offer similar performance. They cost about 500 bucks/pair to build + amp cost which is cheap because they only require 250-400w each to run.
Edited by stormwind13 - 6/26/13 at 8:29am
post #62 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by jklick View Post

Here's how my brain works:
  • How much time should I expect it to take me to build these?
  • Is it possible to build them incorrectly or sub-optimally, resulting in poorer performance or even technical issues?
  • What will it take (resources and time) for me to make the speakers aesthetically pleasing?
  • What happens when there's a technical issue? Who supports it? How much time will it take me to research and remedy problems I run into?
  • If I don't spend time building and maintaining my speakers, what else could I do with that time (i.e. opportunity cost)?

I trust what you're saying, but I think it might just be that I don't fit the persona/profile of a DIY person. I have many DIY friends and they often do it for one of two reasons: it's a hobby or they want to save money. If I wanted to turn DIY speakers into another hobby of mine, I think it would work out. Otherwise, I think I've hit a tipping point where time is a more limited resource than money, where I'll often spend money in order to essentially "buy" time. I often put a lot of initial time into researching something (e.g. speakers, cars, computers, etc.) and love doing so, but once I make a decision, I just need it to work so I can focus on other things.
Subs are crazy easy to build. The SEOS flat packs are CNC machined(I think) and they just go together like a really easy puzzle. For a bit more Erich will build the crossovers for you. All in all, you could build the front three in a day if you're really slow and take a few days to finish them nicely. Or if you had them permanently behind an acoustically transparent screen, just paint them black and be done with it.
post #63 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post


Good Mid morning ADTG
I have just been assuming but now a chance to ask this question. If a manufacture sells a speaker to a dealer for $700 (MSRP $1499) and this speaker is THX Ultra2 certified with on and off axis measurements, How much of the $700 is actually spent on the speakers parts and components?
My guess would be $150 - $ 200 tops. I have always viewed the components as the most important part of the speakers. How does $150 worth of components translate into a THX Ultra2 certified speaker that lists for $1499? IMO This would be an example of Not getting your moneys worth. I understand buying used would be less but someone bought new in order to sell used. In most cases someone bit the MSRP bullet and thanks to them not being satisfied (something is disagreeable or they would not be selling them)they can now be bought at a price reduction on the used market.
Now I understand inside deals and frequent buyer discounts but that is not the normal for most of us.
With the numbers you provided it offered me a chance to ask a question and get a differenr perspective then my own.
Thanks in advance for any opinions on the above idea.
Chris

A lot of giant companies (KEF, Revel, B&W, etc) sell to dealers for 50% off MSRP, some little more, some little less.

The KEF 201/2 is one of the best sounding and best measured speakers in the world. Build quality is also top notch. MSRP is $6,000/PR. Yet a dealer could get a new pair for $2,700/PR. The KEF 207/2 MSRP is $20,000, but a dealer could get for $9,000/PR. It does not change the fact that these are very high quality speakers.

I don't think it's fair to judge quality based on dealer costs.

For another example, the diamond tweeters on the B&W may cost owners/dealers $2,000/PR. But if you were buying DIY, a diamond tweeter from an aftermarket place may cost you $4,000/PR. That does not mean the aftermarket tweeter is better quality, etc.

There are so many factors. Going back to the Klipsch KL-650-THX. The fact is, this speaker (regardless of price) has been through THX testing and certified to be THX Ultra2, which is very high standard.

So I think we should focus on the actual end product and actual testing and actual quality, not the dealer cost. wink.gif
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 6/26/13 at 10:42am
post #64 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by jklick View Post

Do you think I'd be better off with 2x HSU VTF-15H or a single Rythmik FV15HP?

Subwoofer Performance CEA Standard (THD <10%, 2 Meters) SPL @ 20/32/40/50/63Hz:

Outlaw LFM-1EX: 101.0/110.7/112.3/113.7/113.8
Power Sound XV15: 102.7/109.6/113.7/116.6/114.7
Hsu VTF-15H: 103.9/113.0/115.7/115.7/115.6
SVS PB13 Ultra: 110.6/113.5/115.5/117.5/117.8
Rythmik FV15HP: 108.1/117.0/119.5/119.1/118.8

So I think 2 of the lower priced subs on this list may be more cost-effective for budget-minded systems.
post #65 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by jklick View Post


I'm getting a good deal on the KL-650-THX (~$800 a piece), so I think I'm going to steer away from the 228HT's.

As a complete update, I'm leaning towards 3x KL-650-TX for LCR, 2x KL-525-THX for surrounds, and 2x PB12-NSD for subs. I'll be able to get this for under $5K and I'm inclined to believe that it will give a great experience for the Mrs. and I (and our guests). After I see how it goes, I may end up wanting to upgrade to a 7.1 and/or add a couple more subs.

Sounds like a plan, but SVS (although great subs) may not be best bang-for-buck.

Keep in mind that for speaker loudness, the most important thing is the actual listening distance, not room size. It doesn't matter if your room size is 100ft x 100ft if your listening distance is only 15ft.

But for subwoofers, your overall room size matters.

I think the $800 each for the Klipsch 650-THX Ultra2 is excellent. Your dealer is only making about $100 profit each. biggrin.gif

Diid I tell you that the 650-THX is the ONLY speaker I know of to have 2 independent 3rd party verification of the superlative listening window frequency response measurement of 200Hz-10kHz +/- 1dB (HTM & AH) ? No other speaker in the world has this distinction.

I have heard the RF82. I like them a lot. I've never heard the THX Ultra2 certified speakers. But my friends tell me they sound great for movies.

You may read more about THX Ultra2 certification - superb on-axis and off-axis, able to play to 105dB THX standard cleanly, and more. What prices can you get on the Klipsch THX Ultra2 subwoofers? THX Ultra2 subs can play 115dB levels. Might be an option if the price is right. wink.gif Like $600 each on 1 sub? 3 or 4 of these THX Ultra2 subs might be great. biggrin.gif

What price are you getting for the SVS?

If the system (speakers & subs) is good enough for THX Ultra2, it's probably good enough for most people. biggrin.gif

So now instead of going to a THX movie theater, you can stay home in a THX Ultra2 system (subs & speakers).

Now you need a THX display like the Panasonic TC-P65VT25 and THX AVR like the Integra DTR-30.4 THX AVR. biggrin.gif
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 6/26/13 at 3:41pm
post #66 of 257
With the Klipsch, you're paying a lot just for the THX certification. The SEOS can easily outdo them for 1/2 the price. THX certification is way overblown.
post #67 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

With the Klipsch, you're paying a lot just for the THX certification. The SEOS can easily outdo them for 1/2 the price. THX certification is way overblown.

Not everyone wants to or can DIY speakers. In fact the vast majority do not DIY.
post #68 of 257
First, It's really not DIY but an easily ssembled kit. Second, I don't believe in paying a premium price for a certification where the same or better performnce can be had for far less.
post #69 of 257
A lot of folks are running Ascend Acoustics CMT-340's in large rooms with good success. A 5.0 set would cost $1300 ($1440 with the pedestal stands), leaving you lots of budget for two good subs and some room treatments (which I also would recommend).

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cmt340m/cmt340m.html

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cmt340c/cmt340c.html
post #70 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdg4vfx View Post

A lot of folks are running Ascend Acoustics CMT-340's in large rooms with good success. A 5.0 set would cost $1300 ($1440 with the pedestal stands), leaving you lots of budget for two good subs and some room treatments (which I also would recommend).

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cmt340m/cmt340m.html

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cmt340c/cmt340c.html

Those measurements look really good! Really flat with excellent off axis response, and very good sensitivity. Hopefully they're not just reporting the sensitivity of the tweeter.

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cmt340m/cmt340mmeas.html
post #71 of 257
Well, I doubt the pieces in the Klisch are only worth $150. Probably in the neighborhood of $250 or so. Most of the price is reflected in overhead, R&D, advertising costs and the cost of THX certification
post #72 of 257
What difference does the cost of raw materials have to do with speaker selection? Are we now choosing speakers based on markup, or cost of materials?
post #73 of 257
A lot. It helps determine whether it's a good value for the performance. If you can get the same performance for far less, then what's the point of paying the premium price? Nobody I know likes to feel like they paid more than they had to.
Edited by flyng_fool - 6/26/13 at 1:21pm
post #74 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

Not everyone wants to or can DIY speakers. In fact the vast majority do not DIY.
True. But to paraphrase an old quote, those who can, build. Those who can't, buy.
Quote:
My question is the opposite as in how can they take a $150 worth of components a create a speaker worthy of a THX Ultra 2 certification with a & 1499 price tag?
Read this:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1353217

The DR200 and DR250 are DIY speakers, also available from builders, as is the case with those that MKtheater bought, for way less than $1499.
post #75 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by crn3371 View Post

What difference does the cost of raw materials have to do with speaker selection? Are we now choosing speakers based on markup, or cost of materials?
Raw Materials? NO
Speaker components or parts Tweeter, midrange, woofer, and crossover? Yes
It is one of the most important aspects of a speaker. Not the only but certainly important.smile.gif
Chris
post #76 of 257
So, we should all be listening to the Pioneer Andrew Jones floorstanders? Certainly the person enjoying his B&W diamonds is a fool, since there's no way his speakers are 250 times better than the Pioneers
post #77 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by crn3371 View Post

So, we should all be listening to the Pioneer Andrew Jones floorstanders? Certainly the person enjoying his B&W diamonds is a fool, since there's no way his speakers are 250 times better than the Pioneers
Absolutely! J/K. Clearly the B&W's aren't 250X's better, but they are better.. All I am saying that if you could get the same performance of the B&W for a fraction of the price, then why would you want to spend more?
post #78 of 257
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

If you can get the same performance for far less, then what's the point of paying the premium price? Nobody I know likes to feel like they paid more than they had to.
As I shared in my earlier post, I think that some of us may not fit the profile of a DIY person (i.e. we don't want another hobby and time is more valuable than money). Don't get me wrong, the cheaper price tag is enticing and my financial resources aren't unlimited, but I don't think it'll work out for me.

On a related note, I used to custom build and maintain my own HTPCs. It was a fun hobby. It saved me money. Now I buy overpriced Mac Minis because I need something that just works with as little effort as possible. Plus, when things go wrong, I have a phone number I can call. smile.gif
post #79 of 257
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crn3371 View Post

What difference does the cost of raw materials have to do with speaker selection? Are we now choosing speakers based on markup, or cost of materials?
Next, we have to analyze how much it costs to produce a flat pack to make sure we're not getting ripped off by them either. biggrin.gif

... sorry, I digress...
post #80 of 257
I think the DYI route is for a select few. The vast majority of us neither have the time, nor the skill, to build our own speakers.
post #81 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by jklick View Post

As I shared in my earlier post, I think that some of us may not fit the profile of a DIY person (i.e. we don't want another hobby and time is more valuable than money). Don't get me wrong, the cheaper price tag is enticing and my financial resources aren't unlimited, but I don't think it'll work out for me.

On a related note, I used to custom build and maintain my own HTPCs. It was a fun hobby. It saved me money. Now I buy overpriced Mac Minis because I need something that just works with as little effort as possible. Plus, when things go wrong, I have a phone number I can call. smile.gif
I was actually referring to the Ascend mini towers. They look to me to be the equal of the Klipsch for quite a bit less. A bit less sensitive, but Klipsch is known for publishing the spec of only their tweeter and not their woofer.
post #82 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by jklick View Post

As I shared in my earlier post, I think that some of us may not fit the profile of a DIY person (i.e. we don't want another hobby and time is more valuable than money). Don't get me wrong, the cheaper price tag is enticing and my financial resources aren't unlimited, but I don't think it'll work out for me.

On a related note, I used to custom build and maintain my own HTPCs. It was a fun hobby. It saved me money. Now I buy overpriced Mac Minis because I need something that just works with as little effort as possible. Plus, when things go wrong, I have a phone number I can call. smile.gif


What was the price you were going to pay for the SVS pair- could help us make a solid recommendation on what route to go.
post #83 of 257
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Sounds like a plan, but SVS (although great subs) may not be best bang-for-buck.

Keep in mind that for speaker loudness, the most important thing is the actual listening distance, not room size. It doesn't matter if your room size is 100ft x 100ft if your listening distance is only 15ft.

But for subwoofers, your overall room size matters.

What price are you getting for the SVS?

Okay, back on track....

it seems like the one thing *all* of you are agreeing on is that 2 SVS PB12-NSD's might not be the best bang for my buck or even get the job done. I don't have a special price for these - they're $769/each (free shipping). Assuming I'm a quadriplegic and incapable of building my own, what would you guys say is the minimum I should go with to *get started*? This is assuming that I can enjoy my system in the short term and optimize it with more "woof" later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Subwoofer Performance CEA Standard (THD <10%, 2 Meters) SPL @ 20/32/40/50/63Hz:

$769 SVS PB12-NSD: 103.2/105.9/106.5/107.3/108.0
$649 Outlaw LFM-1EX: 101.0/110.7/112.3/113.7/113.8
$799 Power Sound XV15: 102.7/109.6/113.7/116.6/114.7
$879 Hsu VTF-15H: 103.9/113.0/115.7/115.7/115.6
$1999 SVS PB13 Ultra: 110.6/113.5/115.5/117.5/117.8
$1274 Rythmik FV15HP: 108.1/117.0/119.5/119.1/118.8

So I think 2 of the lower priced subs on this list may be more cost-effective for budget-minded systems.

I tampered with the above quote and inserted the price tags for convenience. I also added int he PB12-NSD for comparison. To my uneducated eye, they appear to be very similar in their bang for buck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Now you need a THX display and THX AVR like the Integra DTR-30.4 THX AVR. biggrin.gif

Ha... Any Denon AVRs that fall in that category? The Denon x4000 is what I'm currently assigning to this project.
post #84 of 257
There are very large differences in output between the subs you're listing. A lo of guys are really excited about the Power Sound Audio line. Really great bang for your buck. For your size room, dual 15's would be the min for me.

http://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/power-x
post #85 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

There are very large differences in output between the subs you're listing. A lo of guys are really excited about the Power Sound Audio line. Really great bang for your buck. For your size room, dual 15's would be the min for me.

http://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/power-x

Honestly, I'd drop 1 more G and get a seaton submersive or powered captivator. You can always add one down the road and your output will be awesome. I can't stress how awesome both of these subs are.
post #86 of 257
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormwind13 View Post

Honestly, I'd drop 1 more G and get a seaton submersive or powered captivator. You can always add one down the road and your output will be awesome. I can't stress how awesome both of these subs are.
It seems like most people I talk to recommend two subs for my room rather than a single large one. I don't know the science or reasoning behind this, but it makes me think twice about getting only one. However, I do see the logic of getting only one of the sub I *really* want today, with the expectation of giving it a sister in the future.
Edited by jklick - 6/26/13 at 3:09pm
post #87 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by jklick View Post

It seems like most people I talk to recommend two subs for my room rather than a single large one. I don't know the science or reasoning behind this.
Search 'room modes'.
post #88 of 257
The purpose of the second sub is to flatten the frequency response of your room. You can certainly do it that way, but I would strongly recommend buying the "right" sub the first time. Save yourself eating a steep depreciation loss on reselling used gear (very difficult to do in this economy), and get the right sub the first time.
post #89 of 257
You might want to take a look at the chase home theater vs-18.1 as well, if my memory is correct those are 700 a piece and you can run 2 off the mq600 amp. They require a bit more tinkering though EQ wise and you would likely have to invest in a minidsp + mic (you probably should anyways)
post #90 of 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormwind13 View Post

The purpose of the second sub is to flatten the frequency response of your room.
Also search 'room modes'. No matter how good a single sub you have nor how sophisticated your EQ it won't have uniform response across a wide area. That can only be realized by using multiple subs. The only circumstance where one sub works perfectly is if your listening area is confined to one seat, perhaps two if they're side by side.
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