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New Construction Question Walls Sound Isolation Methods - Page 2

post #31 of 67
+1

Soffits are WONDERFUL for running A/V wires/cables.
post #32 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post



Ok, so first, as you seem to very clearly understand, soundproofing is more about keeping sound from getting into your theater. I think the ideal for your theater is something like 22dB noise floor. The secondary benefit is that it helps to keep sound from escaping the theater (writing more the benefit of the unfamiliar.) Given this, your room may not need the full-on soundproofing treatment. Additionally, if you are as deaf as I am, you're not going to hear something that is as soft as 22dB. And again a full treatment may be a waste of time and money. These are things you, the builder, will have to decide.

However, a second point you really need to think about, is that you have one shot to do this right. It will be much more cost effective to put extra in right now than it would be to rip it out and start over. Just because you may not have a lot of noise right now, doesn't mean that at some point in the future, it can't happen. Kids, changes in neighboring room purpose, flight path changes...stuff you just can't predict. It is easier to upgrade your equipment than your room.

I would say you are probably fine with DDW+GG on stagger studs, backer boxes on your lights and putty pads on your outlets. Maybe think about putting something on the floor for soundproof as well to minimize flanking.

The soundproofing will not do much for the SQ other than keeping your noise floor down. Good design and acoustical treatments will take care of the SQ.

I am probably as deaf as you, I don't have great hearing. My hearing is below average and I have Tinnitus in both ears. I'd still like to keep my noise floor down- and assuming my relatively quiet neighborhood and household that should not be much of a problem.

Flanking is an interesting concept - but I am trying to figure out if it's really an issue I would face. Let's say I only sound proof the one common wall - You really think in the real world my theater noise is going to go through the floor... through the new garage and through the existing wall into the house then back up the floor to the second floor bedroom ? It seems by the time this sound gets there it's so weak it's not a huge issue.

I think I might do a mat on the subfloor anyways just to do it. And I guess I could stagger stud the whole room if I needed. I just question the value to cost ratio of stagger studding an outside wall. I doubt noise would go outside and come back into the house. If I sound proof the floor just to be safe that is ok- but honestly how much sound is going to flank through my garage back into the house?

And if the attic space is not common- then that's probably not a major issue either? AMIRIGHT? (I'm open to the idea i'm a noob idiot at this stuff, so don't hold back if so)
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickbuol View Post

Mfusick, short answer is this.

Yes, even a single wall will help, however the effectiveness is greatly diminished when other common walls/open spaces for sound to travel are present.

Inside a house like original asked by fumarate is going to be different than in a garage space. For example, I can hear the TV in our upstairs living room from inside our bedroom very well, but not the home theater below the bedroom. The living room wall, even if "sound proofed" wouldn't help a ton because the living room connects to a hallway right to the bedroom, plus the physical flanking through the ceiling, floor, one common side wall, etc.

In a garage situation, you would get a potentially better as some homes are actually built in such a fashion that the house is build, and the garage is attached almost like a separate building stuck to the side of the house, this providing more "mass" I guess or some level of additional isolation.

It is a tough call since you are talking about above the garage which the floor, ceiling, and 1 wall are directly connected to the rest of the living space. Doing just one wall probably won't yield the results you are possibly wanting, but I personally have no experience with that type of setup so all of this rambling is just unproven (to the point of a room above a garage) ramblings. Sorry.

I would still stick by any common structure (wall, floor, ceiling) will be a weak spot. Walls are about the easiest to handle, so I see the appeal to doing that first.

Thanks!

I will for sure do the common wall. I will probably do a floating sound mat under the rug, or a serenity mat etc. I am just wondering if the other three outside walls matter much enough to do staggered stud and double sheet rock with GG. That's pretty expensive to protect my lawn from noise pollution. I'm sure the grass outside doesn't mind biggrin.gif
post #33 of 67
I'm trying to analyze the cost difference of staggered stud versus normal. And also GG+DWx2 versus single layer.

2x4 are like $2.25 each right ? So if I spend say another $250 to do staggered studs that's not a crazy expense. But then again- I'll need more on the corners and wider bottom and top plates so lets say it's $300 more versus normal studs (Am I way off? )

Now Sheetrock is like $11 a sheet right ?

So if I need twice as much on a wall that's like $400 more to do the whole room + the green glue ($500). So $900 more plus the staggered studs. So realistically it's going to cost $1500 to do both.

Wondering if I had to delete one- if it's better to do staggered studs with one layer of sheetrock ? Or do normal studs with double layers+GG? What's more effective? Just curious where the value is ??
post #34 of 67
I would not bother with double studding. Just use clips, channel, DW, GG, DD on all 4 walls and the ceiling. Doing only 1 wall is probably not worth the money.
post #35 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBon View Post

I would not bother with double studding. Just use clips, channel, DW, GG, DD on all 4 walls and the ceiling. Doing only 1 wall is probably not worth the money.

But how much is clips and channel + DW, GG ? It's much more than staggered studs I think.
post #36 of 67
I certainly understand budgetary constraints. I think you probably have enough info now to give Ted White a call and talk through it with him. He will be able to guide down the best path.

I'm trying to put myself in your shoes and determine what I would do. I currently have a theater that I am about to tear out and start over because I now so much more and my situation has changed. When I built it several years ago, there were no kids. Whenever I was watching a movie it was with my wife. I also wasn't as critical about the experience (thanks AVS rolleyes.gif ). So, I'm going to redo it first for a greater experience and second for better sound containment so we can watch a movie when the kids are in bed.
My house is small and our situation is very different. If I were you, knowing what I know now, I would do something by way of sound containment. What I'm not sure, and I think talking it over with the Soundproofing Company will help you figure out what you don't yet know.

Just my two cents.
post #37 of 67
Solid advice. I think your right. I'd hate to do it wrong and have to do it again. If I make the walls and room right I can focus on the rest later.
post #38 of 67
Just for the sake of completeness, I mentioned on the previous page that I thought The Soundproofing company was not recommending Acoustical Sealants any longer. Here is the link to that post:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1450185/understanding-sound-damping-with-green-glue#post_22804701
post #39 of 67
To the original poster...........

I just got done with building a first floor sound proofed room...............lots of preparation went into the task and all went well. Decibel reading of 26-28 db's without my zero seals installed.......not too shabby.

Before you get further into the task, you might want to consider how to isolate the floor first since I presume the subfloor would be shared with the rest of the house.

I took great pains to isolate the floor from the rest of the house which entailed modifications to subflooring and framing. I used the 3/8 serenity mat from the Soundproofing Company and used 3/4 plywood to float the floor on the stage and riser. If I had it all to do over again, I would have dropped the theater room floor a full two inches rather than attempting to keep the floor level with the rest of the house. If I had done that, I could have used 1-1/8 plywood for subfloor, serenity mat, then two layers of 3/4" plywood on top.

One other note..............you must go anal retentive on your HVAC! I used my soffits as mufflers inside the shell and have no issues with sound infiltration from the outside. In addition, my air exchanger is directly behind my theater in the garage. The wall and ceiling in the garage received a layer of 5/8 OSB for shear(ceiling received DD), GG, then a layer of 5/8 sheetrock. I was worried about hearing the motor/fan from the exchanger but the theater room is super quiet. Amazing what paying attention to the smallest detail can do for your desired outcomes................
post #40 of 67
Is there anyway to stagger studs on an existing framining when you can not reach the upper horizontal stud (studs go into floor Joyce, with ceiling drywall lower) effectively? I was thinking an upper strip with 2x4 horizontal pieces in between 16" OC vertical studs? Will this work or am I defeating the isolation property?
post #41 of 67
If the sheetrock on one wall it not screwed into the same wood as the other side I think you mostly accomplish the goal. Sound or vibration can travel through objects - but not as much from object to object to object... That is the idea.
post #42 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Solid advice. I think your right. I'd hate to do it wrong and have to do it again. If I make the walls and room right I can focus on the rest later.

That's the hook that gets everyone. What is right? Who defines what is right? Do you ever notice how "doing it right" generally means taking money out of your pocket and giving it to the people that are telling you what is right?

Clips + GG were ~$4,000 for my room if I remember correctly. That doesn't include the channel, all the extra screws, tin snips to cut the channel, the drywall itself, additional acoustic sealant for the 2nd layer of drywall, channel layout design, or the time/labor to put it all together.

The best advice I got was to quantify your goals, then research your options. How many dB of sound attenuation do you need @ what frequencies? Which construction assemblies satisfy your requirements? Which of those are viable for you in terms of cost, space, and difficulty? There is your answer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post

So, I'm going to redo it first for a greater experience and second for better sound containment so we can watch a movie when the kids are in bed.

Keep in mind that the definition of "soundproofing" for HT, according to the professionals, is primarily to lower the noise floor within the room. Dennis's famous line for his designs are "Don't care if the noise wakes the baby, but ensures you won't hear the baby when it wakes" - or something to that effect. I see most people sold on soundproofing due to situations like yours, but when you get down to brass tacks, that's not what you're buying. If you want to crank Iron Man 3 on a capable audio system while the kids sleep upstairs... you need to invest in a good pair of headphones.

There have been several threads outlining what it would take to truly sound proof a room in the layman's sense of the term. The point was to level set that if you understood the physics involved that you couldn't realistically expect it. Something like 6' thick concrete walls, or "castle walls".
Edited by rabident - 7/2/13 at 3:25pm
post #43 of 67
I could care less if sound leaks into my garage bothers my car- or wakes up my back lawn biggrin.gif

I really don't care much about sound proofing. I live in a quiet neighborhood. I do want a low noise floor and care much more about the sound inside the room. I just don't have much noise pollution that would enter.

I would make a 5 layer DD+GG and do full clips and channels- I'd even burn a few hundred dollar bills for the heck of it- If someone could clearly explain to me how it would make my audio inside the room sound better.

No one seems to be able to do that- so I feel strange no caring about sound proofing. Am I weird ?

The kids are on the total other side of the house, there is halls, closets, bathrooms, and stairs in the between. I doubt clips and channels are going to make any difference at all. And- if it did wake them I would just lower the volume. Is there something wrong with me where I don't see the true value in sound proofing ?

Am probably going to do staggered studs on the common wall. I could even do a double wall I guess. I will probably do it just because- and just in case. So I don't look back and regret.

I am wondering if I should just stagger stud the entire room ??? Even the outside walls ? What would be the point ?
post #44 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post

Keep in mind that the definition of "soundproofing" for HT, according to the professionals, is primarily to lower the noise floor within the room. Dennis's famous line for his designs are "Don't care if the noise wakes the baby, but ensures you won't hear the baby when it wakes" - or something to that effect. I see most people sold on soundproofing due to situations like yours, but when you get down to brass tacks, that's not what you're buying. If you want to crank Iron Man 3 on a capable audio system while the kids sleep upstairs... you need to invest in a good pair of headphones.

If you had actually read the tread, you would have noticed that I pointed this out in post 26. I'm sorry your experience hasn't been quite what you were hoping for, but many people do enjoy the benefit of their soundproofing effort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I could care less if sound leaks into my garage bothers my car- or wakes up my back lawn biggrin.gif

I really don't care much about sound proofing. I live in a quiet neighborhood. I do want a low noise floor and care much more about the sound inside the room. I just don't have much noise pollution that would enter.

I would make a 5 layer DD+GG and do full clips and channels- I'd even burn a few hundred dollar bills for the heck of it- If someone could clearly explain to me how it would make my audio inside the room sound better.

No one seems to be able to do that- so I feel strange no caring about sound proofing. Am I weird ?

The kids are on the total other side of the house, there is halls, closets, bathrooms, and stairs in the between. I doubt clips and channels are going to make any difference at all. And- if it did wake them I would just lower the volume. Is there something wrong with me where I don't see the true value in sound proofing ?

Am probably going to do staggered studs on the common wall. I could even do a double wall I guess. I will probably do it just because- and just in case. So I don't look back and regret.

I am wondering if I should just stagger stud the entire room ??? Even the outside walls ? What would be the point ?

How is soundproofing going to improve the sound in your room? By not letting outside in to drown out the details or otherwise color the sound. Think about a lawn mower in your room while you are trying to watch a movie. How is it going to sound? Like sh!t. Take the lawn mower out, all you hear is the music/movie. That is the purpose of soundproofing your theater. You take the lawn mower out of your room.
The acoustic design of your room, i.e. proper speaker placement, proper placement of absorption/diffusion, is what will make your room sound good. With proper design, a mediocre system will sound really good. With a poor design, a great system will sound terrible.
post #45 of 67
So often these threads contain a lot of hand-wringing about the expense of soundproofing and sound containment in new construction. Should I do it? Why do I need it? Who cares? The kids are two floors away. etc.

The real question you ought to ask yourself is "How do I live?" "'What is the return on my investment?"

For me the return is as low a noise floor as possible; tinnitus is real, kids. Also worth it is a chest gripping explosion going unnoticed by my wife a floor away, or cranking Joe Bonamassa at 3:00am while guests are sleeping.

For arguments sake lets say your new construction is $400K. The additional cost of correctly doing rudimentary soundproofing/containment is in the neighborhood of $4k, or roughly 1% of the cost of your build. For me it is important enough to cut 1% somewhere else in the construction cost. Don't buy the best stainless steel Bosch appliances. Do you really need granite counter tops? Forget about Kohler plumbing in two of the bathrooms. Put a less expensive laminate floor in the family room. Not that hard to come up with the extra 4K. Especially if your significant other is on board. Does it really matter if your mortgage is plus or minus $4k?

IMO life is too short to shortchange the things are the most important to you.

Mfusick, you are a PC junkie. Sell off a couple of builds and skip an Intel chip generation or two and you will have paid for the sound containment expense. eek.gif

Stepping off my soapbox . . .



Willie
Edited by Willie - 7/2/13 at 7:39pm
post #46 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post

If you had actually read the tread, you would have noticed that I pointed this out in post 26. I'm sorry your experience hasn't been quite what you were hoping for, but many people do enjoy the benefit of their soundproofing effort

I quoted the relevant context. Talk to me after you've been through it.
post #47 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie View Post

So often these threads contain a lot of hand-wringing about the expense of soundproofing and sound containment in new construction. Should I do it? Why do I need it? Who cares? The kids are two floors away. etc.

The real question you ought to ask yourself is "How do I live?" "'What is the return on my investment?"

For me the return is as low a noise floor as possible; tinnitus is real, kids. Also worth it is a chest gripping explosion going unnoticed by my wife a floor away, or cranking Joe Bonamassa at 3:00am while guests are sleeping.

For arguments sake lets say your new construction is $400K. The additional cost of correctly doing rudimentary soundproofing/containment is in the neighborhood of $4k, or roughly 1% of the cost of your build. For me it is important enough to cut 1% somewhere else in the construction cost. Don't buy the best stainless steel Bosch appliances. Do you really need granite counter tops? Forget about Kohler plumbing in two of the bathrooms. Put a less expensive laminate floor in the family room. Not that hard to come up with the extra 4K. Especially if your significant other is on board. Does it really matter if your mortgage is plus or minus $4k?

IMO life is too short to shortchange the things are the most important to you.

Mfusick, you are a PC junkie. Sell off a couple of builds and skip an Intel chip generation or two and you will have paid for the sound containment expense. eek.gif

Stepping off my soapbox . . .



Willie


Lol my new construction is not 400k

My house is worth 150k. I'm adding a garage and improvements for about 55k and doing much of work myself to keep costs down.

We can't afford a mortgage north of $1000 a month.

I think there's a disconnect on the "value" aspect.
post #48 of 67
Yup. Read that in the other thread after I saw this thread. When I read new construction, I read newly built home.
post #49 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post

I quoted the relevant context. Talk to me after you've been through it.

Will do.
post #50 of 67
Mfusick, I know that you don't care about keeping your grass up in the middle of the night, but here is something to think about.

There was a guy down the street from us in our old neighborhood that had a "bonus room" above their garage that was finished into a home theater. Zero soundproofing was done. They had no kids, and it was always just him and his wife so they didn't care about the sound in his house. They didn't watch a TON of movies... Maybe one or two a week tops, but when they did they started them around 9:30 or 10:00pm.

It wasn't long before they started getting complaints from some of the neighbors. They used "anonymous notes" and even going as far as calling the cops for a noise disturbance.

I had seen his theater and we even watched a movie (one of the Star Wars prequels) during a rainy Saturday. He really didn't have it any louder than most normal people would have it, and said that was how loud he always had it.

So "normal" volume levels inside the theater, zero sound proofing, the grass, car, and lawnmower were kept awake at night and so were some neighbors.

So you can do what you wish, but keep that factor in mind. While soundproofing easily helps with the sound floor in the theater and that seems to be the main focus of "people in the know," it still serve another purpose of keeping sound inside the theater... At least to some extent.

So when you talk about waking your lawn, living in a quiet neighborhood, and that you have really no noise pollution in your theater, that means that you watch movies at night, live in a neighborhood that will easily notice your theater running, and you will become the source of the noise pollution.

Not criticizing, but just bringing up some (hopefully constructive) counter-points to what you said.
post #51 of 67
Thread Starter 
Thank you everyone for your feedback.

I understand Mfusick has questions about improving the sound quality in their HT.
It sounds like soundproofing will help elevate some of the background noise outside of the HT, which will help.
But, really in my mind, improving sound quality is a topic for acoustic treatments to be made IN the HT.

My original questions were more directed at improving soundproofing, in particular wall construction, for a brand new home to be built.

I know that just addressing the walls will not be enough. There are also considerations for the floor, ceiling, HVAC, and flanking to be looked at.

This thread has given me many more topics to research before construction begins.
Thanks!
post #52 of 67
You are correct. Many times people confuse soundproofing with acoustical treatments inside the room. However, soundproofing can be a very key component of acoustical treatment.

A soundproofed room will still echo and sound bad from reflections, standing waves, so on and so forth. However, having a room with some soundproofing encorporated into it will also reduce outside/external factors that can impact the sound. The wife making you an ice cream treat in a Ninja blender in the kitchen, the neighborhood kids outside playing, etc. Those all impact the quality of the sound inside the theater.

But that horse has been beaten to death. You do get more "bang for your buck" in sound quality inside a room with acoustical treatments, something that I have still yet to finish in my theater, but the few things I've done with treatments has made a big difference. I just need to get some more diffusion in my rear corners (as in putting in my movie/media storage in one corner), put some absorption on the back wall, and do first reflection point absorption. The floor, ceiling, front vertical corners (bass traps) and front wall are all treated and that made a huge difference.

So when you are ready, open up some more threads on the other topics. As you can see, there is no shortage of advice around here. biggrin.gif
post #53 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickbuol View Post

Mfusick, I know that you don't care about keeping your grass up in the middle of the night, but here is something to think about.

There was a guy down the street from us in our old neighborhood that had a "bonus room" above their garage that was finished into a home theater. Zero soundproofing was done. They had no kids, and it was always just him and his wife so they didn't care about the sound in his house. They didn't watch a TON of movies... Maybe one or two a week tops, but when they did they started them around 9:30 or 10:00pm.

It wasn't long before they started getting complaints from some of the neighbors. They used "anonymous notes" and even going as far as calling the cops for a noise disturbance.

I had seen his theater and we even watched a movie (one of the Star Wars prequels) during a rainy Saturday. He really didn't have it any louder than most normal people would have it, and said that was how loud he always had it.

So "normal" volume levels inside the theater, zero sound proofing, the grass, car, and lawnmower were kept awake at night and so were some neighbors.

So you can do what you wish, but keep that factor in mind. While soundproofing easily helps with the sound floor in the theater and that seems to be the main focus of "people in the know," it still serve another purpose of keeping sound inside the theater... At least to some extent.

So when you talk about waking your lawn, living in a quiet neighborhood, and that you have really no noise pollution in your theater, that means that you watch movies at night, live in a neighborhood that will easily notice your theater running, and you will become the source of the noise pollution.

Not criticizing, but just bringing up some (hopefully constructive) counter-points to what you said.

Thanks !!!!!

Great points !
post #54 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Thanks !!!!!

Great points !

Just trying to keep the po-po (5-0), Po-lease away. biggrin.gif
post #55 of 67
Ha Ha! Thanks. I don't think it a real concern. I've long played guitar and drums at louder than theater reference without issues.
post #56 of 67
People think "very quiet" is library quiet...about 33 to 35dB. Movies think quiet is 22dB. In a room not sound isolated, the difference between the noise floor in the (very quiet) room and the softest sound on a sound track is right around a factor of 8. So, not a problem right? Just turn up the volume to hear soft dialog, foot steps, leaves in the wind. That's fine; but, having done that, normal dialog and "normal" sound is also going to be played back 8 times louder...not so fun. The loud sounds...also 8 times louder and, in many cases, beyond the capability of mid-level amps and speakers.

For the record, those with hearing loss or even tinnitus benefit more from lowered noise floors (and good acoustics) than those with good hearing now (which will be pretty bad hearing in the future due to an overly loud movie or gaming room).

"I have poor hearing. I don't need sound isolation or good acoustics." That is nothing more than rationalization and horse poo-poo.
post #57 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post

Keep in mind that the definition of "soundproofing" for HT, according to the professionals, is primarily to lower the noise floor within the room. Dennis's famous line for his designs are "Don't care if the noise wakes the baby, but ensures you won't hear the baby when it wakes" - or something to that effect. I see most people sold on soundproofing due to situations like yours, but when you get down to brass tacks, that's not what you're buying. If you want to crank Iron Man 3 on a capable audio system while the kids sleep upstairs... you need to invest in a good pair of headphones.

There have been several threads outlining what it would take to truly sound proof a room in the layman's sense of the term. The point was to level set that if you understood the physics involved that you couldn't realistically expect it. Something like 6' thick concrete walls, or "castle walls".

Are you saying that after all of this investment, if you want to listen to iron man or a movie with good LFE at movie theater volums w/o disturbing the kids upstairs - the OP's suggestion - decoupled walls with wall within a wall + DW + GG+GW - is not going to achieve that goal?????
Anyone else care to chime in?
post #58 of 67
If you follow all the recommendations for soundproofing a theater space, you will not disturb the kids in second floor bedrooms.
post #59 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgott42 View Post

Are you saying that after all of this investment, if you want to listen to iron man or a movie with good LFE at movie theater volums w/o disturbing the kids upstairs - the OP's suggestion - decoupled walls with wall within a wall + DW + GG+GW - is not going to achieve that goal?????
Anyone else care to chime in?

I was responding to BillDo, who I quoted, who said he had a small home and an existing HT that he was going to tear down & rebuild with soundproofing so he wouldn't wake his kids in bed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

If you follow all the recommendations for soundproofing a theater space, you will not disturb the kids in second floor bedrooms.

Including this one?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

if you want to start slowing down 15Hz frequencies, the fundamental resonance point of the would need to be 10Hz. Maybe 12 sheets of drywall on either side of a 2 foot deep decoupled wall.
post #60 of 67
Awesome info
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