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Pioneer Elite SC-75/77/79 Anticipation Thread - Page 2

post #31 of 381
I'm curious how the Sabre DAC's will sound compared to the DAC's from the other elite receivers. I know the SC-05/7 used wolfson but what did the 35/37 use?

It's good to see pioneer still trying improve SQ.
post #32 of 381
I think these are the same DACs the BDP-105 uses and it has high reviews for sound quality.
post #33 of 381
I think this is the SC 35 DAC:Freescale™ and Texas Instruments Aureus 24-Bit Digital Engine
The SQ of the SC 35 is excellent with this DAC. I wonder how noticeable the SQ difference is with a 32 vs 24 bit DAC. I use a lot of digital music and at this point see no reason to switch from my SC 35. I will wait another year or two for a few additional features. I enjoy the sound of the Pioneer as much as I do my tube gear.
post #34 of 381
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

I think these are the same DACs the BDP-105 uses and it has high reviews for sound quality.

They are not the same DACs as used by the Oppo BDP-105, although they are the same brand of DAC. The 105 uses 2 ESS Sabre 32 ES9018 Reference DACs. One is used in 8 channel mode to provide 7.1 analog output, and the other is used in 8 channel mode with 2 channels for unbalanced stereo, 2 for balanced stereo, and the remaining 4 stacked for headphone output. In 8 channel mode these are rated at 129 dB DNR and -120 dB THD.

The Pioneer Elite SC-75/77/79 use 9 ESS Sabre 32 ES9016 Ultra DACs. ESS Technology does not advertise a mono mode for this DAC, and in 2 channel mode these are rated at 128 dB DNR and -110 dB THD. Oppo did use the ES9016 in an 8 channel stacked mode for the dedicated stereo output on the BDP-83SE.

I'm presuming that Pioneer is using the ES9016s in 2 channel mode, although I haven't figured out how they are divvying up the 10 (9.1) channels between the 9 DACs. Perhaps each channel getting it's own DAC in 7.1 mode, with each of the 2 subwoofer outputs also getting a whole DAC to itself, and then splitting 2 of the DACs into 2 channel for 9.1?
post #35 of 381
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post

They are not the same DACs as used by the Oppo BDP-105, although they are the same brand of DAC. The 105 uses 2 ESS Sabre 32 ES9018 Reference DACs.

you beat me to it wink.gif
you are correct, sir smile.gif
post #36 of 381
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

I think this is the SC 35 DAC:Freescale™ and Texas Instruments Aureus 24-Bit Digital Engine

Freescale is the brand name & mfg for a DSP processor that Pioneer uses for at least part of the processing & not the DAC. Freescale is a division of Motorola semiconductor. the TI Aureus holds decoders & processing (Dolby, dts, THX) Pioneer has been using Freescale processors for years, going back to the VSX-49TXI era. Freescale/Motorola may have updated the chip over the years, but it's the same processor engine Pioneer used in the 49TXI/59TXI for some parts of or all of MCACC.

I don't have the service manual for the SC-37/35 & I haven't found a definitive answer in my searches this AM on which DAC was in the 37 & which one in the 35. I've read references to Wolfson, Burr Brown & Asahi-Kasei eek.gif It would take a service manual to know for sure smile.gif I have manuals for the SC-09 & SC-57 but nothing in-between, sorry...

Pioneer for sure used the Asahi-Kasei AK4480 32 bit DAC for the 57/55 and 68/67/65 models.
Edited by ss9001 - 7/9/13 at 5:23am
post #37 of 381
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post

^ Well, I am guessing based on my experience with other units, but "PURE" sounds likely to be a native resolution option. (There is a "Pure Audio" option on the Oppo BDP-103.) It is also possible that if the Pioneer is fed 4K it will automatically pass it (regardless of setting) rather than try to down-convert it back to 1080p or some other resolution. Giving it some thought I don't think it would be possible for the Pioneer to do any up-conversion if it was already being fed a 4K source. It may be worth some experimentation to verify the best settings.

I also have an Oppo BDP-103, and I plan to use the split A/V feature (HMDI 1 directly to the display, and HDMI 2 directly to the Pioneer) when I get my SC-75 or 77. My display is not 4K, but using split A/V insures that video output by the Oppo completely bypasses the Pioneer AVR.

I sent Pioneer an email on this question, hopefully they will respond. I already have a 4K display and am doing the same split with my Oppo 103. I do have 4K content that Sony gave me in the way of a server with a number of 4K movies and shorts. Unfortunately the server only has optical out which is 2 channel stereo. With HDMI going into the Pioneer I could at least improve the quality of the sound and use the "Pure" for video.
Yes it would have been better to have waited for HDMI 2,0 and H.265 codec but I was sold by the Sony's upscaling abilities. Right now with 2160p I can only get 30Hz instead of 60Hz. Thus the limitations or an early adopter. But boy, what PQ! Anyway I digress....back the to the Pioneers.
post #38 of 381
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

Freescale is the brand name & mfg for a DSP processor that Pioneer uses for at least part of the processing & not the DAC. Freescale is a division of Motorola semiconductor. the TI Aureus holds decoders & processing (Dolby, dts, THX) Pioneer has been using Freescale processors for years, going back to the VSX-49TXI era. Freescale/Motorola may have updated the chip over the years, but it's the same processor engine Pioneer used in the 49TXI/59TXI for some parts of or all of MCACC.

I don't have the service manual for the SC-37/35 & I haven't found a definitive answer in my searches this AM on which DAC was in the 37 & which one in the 35. I've read references to Wolfson, Burr Brown & Asahi-Kasei eek.gif It would take a service manual to know for sure smile.gif I have manuals for the SC-09 & SC-57 but nothing in-between, sorry...

Pioneer for sure used the Asahi-Kasei AK4480 32 bit DAC for the 57/55 and 68/67/65 models.

Well i found these

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1258429/official-pioneer-elite-sc-37/60#post_18909259

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1258429/official-pioneer-elite-sc-37/1530#post_19481088


The 35 and 37 uses TI burr brown DAC's. With the 35 being 24bit and 35 being 32.
post #39 of 381
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Well i found these

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1258429/official-pioneer-elite-sc-37/60#post_18909259

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1258429/official-pioneer-elite-sc-37/1530#post_19481088


The 35 and 37 uses TI burr brown DAC's. With the 35 being 24bit and 35 being 32.

That sound correct if memory serves me right, thanks.
post #40 of 381
So no 11 channel capability with any of these, then?

A bit fascinating that some manu's still haven't moved to 11 channels with these multi kilo-buck AVRs aimed at the 3rd tier enthusiasts even though they're including tech (Audyssey/NEO X) that offer it.

James
post #41 of 381
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

So no 11 channel capability with any of these, then?

A bit fascinating that some manu's still haven't moved to 11 channels with these multi kilo-buck AVRs aimed at the 3rd tier enthusiasts even though they're including tech (Audyssey/NEO X) that offer it.

James
I see 11 channel as niche like SACD,DVD-A and 3D some will like and appreciate it, but it will be poorly supported and may eventually die or fade away.
post #42 of 381
Sorry, but ANY avr over $1000 is "niche".
So are 3 and 4 zones.
So are 32 bit DACs.
So is 4k upconversion.
So is 7 channel surround.
So is 9 channel surround.

These are flagship products that are BUILT to fill niches.

Adding another DAC and the ability to pre out 11 channels over 9 is not exactly re-inventing
the wheel or busting the bank.

And I disagree that 9/11 channel is going anywhere anytime soon. There are plenty who will pay with plenty of rooms where it's a fantastic uptick over 5.1.

James
post #43 of 381
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Sorry, but ANY avr over $1000 is "niche".
So are 3 and 4 zones.
So are 32 bit DACs.
So is 4k upconversion.
So is 7 channel surround.
So is 9 channel surround.

These are flagship products that are BUILT to fill niches.

Adding another DAC and the ability to pre out 11 channels over 9 is not exactly re-inventing
the wheel or busting the bank.

And I disagree that 9/11 channel is going anywhere anytime soon. There are plenty who will pay with plenty of rooms where it's a fantastic uptick over 5.1.

James
On these and other AV forums maybe but out in the world where the masses buy not a chance ask any installer that works day in and day out its hard enough getting them to accept 7.1 over just 5.1 and some are even contemplating sound bars instead and really the industry kinda shoots itself in the foot on a lot of tech.
As for the 1000.00 AVR we install quite a few of those it seems to be the sweet spot do probably to powered zones which most obviously do want and care about.
The hard sell for 4K is content virtually none.
post #44 of 381
I'm not going to get into a debate on which feature, number of channels or format is "niche" or not. All I know is I personally have an extensive SACD & DVD-A collection, totaling more than all the CD's I own since CD's came out in early 80's. What is niche for some is mainstream for others. If the day came when a receiver mfg stopped supporting those formats, then that's the day I stop buying their product.

same is true for players.

I suspect 1) I'm not alone because there are quite a few hardcore multichannel/quadraphonic music fans & 2) SACD/DVD-A won't die anytime soon. they may gradually be replaced by Blu-ray audio but the last time I checked there aren't a whole lot of BD non-concert discs for sale. Far fewer than SACD's still being made & still available by labels like MoFi & Analog Productions, to name 2 non-classical music labels. That doesn't include labels like Telarc, Pentatone, Blue Note, etc who specialize in classical & jazz. SACD's are still alive & kickin'. So are DVD-A's since that format is still being used for 5.1 classic rock mixes by Steven Wilson & others.

number of channels? maybe your perspective is from how many people have living room systems vs dedicated media room /HT rooms where 7.1+ can easily be attained.
Edited by ss9001 - 7/9/13 at 3:35pm
post #45 of 381
I have an enjoy SACD/DVD-A but I and all of AVS members buying them apparently was not enough to keep them in record and department stores now relegated to mail order and in some cases out of print.
I hope it does make a go of it from an installers point of view more speakers,wire,brackets and labor just not seeing it.
post #46 of 381
A niche within a niche wants ever more channels. I want excellent audio oversamling, great upscaling video, noise reduction and artifact reduction of video, with an option to zoom, crop, etc., ease of use, excellent reliability, and at the most 7.1 channels.
Speaking of audio oversampling, has anyone compared the Cambridge Azur 751, the Anthem D2v, and the Pioneer latest and greatest upsamping audio? Even on paper? Does Pioneer's 3 top newest AVR's really upsample to 32-bits, instead of 24-bits? Is this even slightly audibly better? I would hate to settle for only the 24-bit upsampling of the competitors if I knew that 32-bit upsampling from Pioneer was better, even slightly better. Is there any literature on Pioneer's audio upsampling? Do I just have to wait until I read a review of how it sounds?
post #47 of 381
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazishere View Post

Does Pioneer's 3 top newest AVR's really upsample to 32-bits, instead of 24-bits? Is this even slightly audibly better? I would hate to settle for only the 24-bit upsampling of the competitors if I knew that 32-bit upsampling from Pioneer was better, even slightly better. Is there any literature on Pioneer's audio upsampling? Do I just have to wait until I read a review of how it sounds?

According to the owner's manuals, the audio scaling includes the capability to requantize 16, 20 and 24 bit PCM and compressed audio to 32 bit which is supposed to result in a wider dynamic range. They also state "the high frequency component is interpolated upon data processing to enable smoother, more subtle musical expression." The audio scaling also includes the ability to apply 2 or 4 times up-sampling to the source's sampling frequency (apparently only on 2-channel PCM source). There is also a digital filter with soft and sharp settings. An auto setting is available, that supposedly optimizes all three settings based on the 2-channel source.

That's all I've seen so far.
post #48 of 381
Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

On these and other AV forums maybe but out in the world where the masses buy not a chance ask any installer that works day in and day out its hard enough getting them to accept 7.1 over just 5.1 and some are even contemplating sound bars instead and really the industry kinda shoots itself in the foot on a lot of tech.
As for the 1000.00 AVR we install quite a few of those it seems to be the sweet spot do probably to powered zones which most obviously do want and care about.
The hard sell for 4K is content virtually none.

You're bolstering the case I made. Everything I dictated is "niche" in the real world...just like 11 channel surround. But again, crucially, these products are designed, marketed, and priced specifically to fill those niches.

"We/you" may install "many" $1000 AVRs but they certainly are nowhere near the norm. Now, walk into the home of someone who owns an AVR and see how many are running 3 or four zones. It's the definition of niche. Thankfully these products cater perfectly to many of them.

James
post #49 of 381
met with my installer (authorized elite dealer)...he said he could probably do $1825, but would give firm price with written estimate. Availability is "July".

He recommended a sonos box wired and connected to AVR for content vs using AVR direct. His argument was even with avcontrol201x (his experience was with 2012) its still a bit wonky for content selection especially with itunes libraries. i plan to try the pio first and add a sonos box later if necessary. I've heard nothing but good things about sonos...but $350 is alot for features a 2k AVR already has. I do like clean and easy tho....wife approval factor always a factor too.
post #50 of 381
Got my SC 77 today and set it up..Sounds really good smile.gif..Taking my time to explore still.
post #51 of 381
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jingoboy_78 View Post

Got my SC 77 today and set it up..Sounds really good smile.gif..Taking my time to explore still.

I'm looking forward to your full review.
post #52 of 381
Quote:
Originally Posted by jingoboy_78 View Post

Got my SC 77 today and set it up..Sounds really good smile.gif..Taking my time to explore still.
I am also interested in your review on paper it sounds like its what I want was thinking about the SC-72 but those Sabre Dacs and other things have me rethinking .
post #53 of 381
Quote:
Originally Posted by jingoboy_78 View Post

Got my SC 77 today and set it up..Sounds really good smile.gif..Taking my time to explore still.

looks like you have the privilege of starting an Owners Thread, if you like smile.gif
post #54 of 381
Hi Steve:

Glad to hear from you my long time friend.

I do not own the Sc-09 anymore. I got rid of it on March 10th 2013. I will always remember that day in my memory.
It was very difficult to part with it.
I sold it for well over a grand to a friend of mine. I waiting for maybe a Susano replacement. I may be wrong, I hope not.
If no Susano replacement, I will go for the SC79 around November or December.
At the moment, I have no AVR in the house. I am really starving

If there is going to be a Susano replacement, will you be able to organize "Power Buy" through this Avsforum similar to what Josh Lehman did in 2008?
Again, thanks for your continued support over the years.
Take care.

George.
post #55 of 381
You are better man than me.i have to have a replacement before I get rid of mines
post #56 of 381
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Omoregie View Post

Hi Steve:

Glad to hear from you my long time friend.

I do not own the Sc-09 anymore. I got rid of it on March 10th 2013. I will always remember that day in my memory.
It was very difficult to part with it.
I sold it for well over a grand to a friend of mine. I waiting for maybe a Susano replacement. I may be wrong, I hope not.
If no Susano replacement, I will go for the SC79 around November or December.
At the moment, I have no AVR in the house. I am really starving

If there is going to be a Susano replacement, will you be able to organize "Power Buy" through this Avsforum similar to what Josh Lehman did in 2008?
Again, thanks for your continued support over the years.
Take care.

George.
I don't have that kind of willpower my off time revolves around music and movies and spending time with my Conure.
post #57 of 381
There is no Susano replacement. I don't think there ever will be. You should have kept that SC-09.
post #58 of 381
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

There is no Susano replacement. I don't think there ever will be. You should have kept that SC-09.
Looking at the others (Denon ,Yahmaha and Onkyo) I believe your right those Dreadnaught classes of AVR's has sailed.
post #59 of 381
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Omoregie View Post

Hi Steve:

Glad to hear from you my long time friend.

I do not own the Sc-09 anymore. I got rid of it on March 10th 2013. I will always remember that day in my memory.
It was very difficult to part with it.
I sold it for well over a grand to a friend of mine. I waiting for maybe a Susano replacement. I may be wrong, I hope not.
If no Susano replacement, I will go for the SC79 around November or December.
At the moment, I have no AVR in the house. I am really starving

If there is going to be a Susano replacement, will you be able to organize "Power Buy" through this Avsforum similar to what Josh Lehman did in 2008?
Again, thanks for your continued support over the years.
Take care.

George.

Hi George smile.gif

not me for Power Buys, I'm not that connected wink.gif

plus I wouldn't want to be put in the spot Josh was with trying to put money aside to buy the gear for his Power Buys, run a B&M store (which failed & closed) and other activities he was involved in. He crashed & burned and some people never got their gear. I couldn't afford to put our savings at risk. He was young & could recover, I'm looking forward to retirement in a few yrs wink.gif thanks for thinking of me but that is something I would not be interested in trying to do - too much money at stake. I have a full time professional career, don't need the headache of trying to run a side business.

I know of no other true equivalent replacement for the Susano on the horizon. While every year brings new features & better capabilities, I don't see any company coming out with $5-7K AVR's anytime soon. I think those AVR's are a thing of the past. What we learned the hard way....digital technology changes too fast. Most people these days accept swapping out AVR's every few yrs. if they need more power for inefficient speakers, they bolt on some ext amps. & lose hundreds on gear swapping instead of thousands wink.gif

I still have my SC-09, have no plan to sell it anytime soon. Using it for its amps with the SC-68. Not as convenient as a true ext amp but it's paid for wink.gif and I still use it for ILink and some legacy connections (laserdisc & DVR recording) that got dropped on new models. and part of me doesn't want to sell it for what the used market would probably bring, as you found out smile.gif

Based on my experience with the SC-68, I think you'd be happy with a 79. The amps are not quite as powerful as what we had in the Susano but still very potent and will be just as suitable if your Susano handled your speakers. Many more features, like internet radio, which I've enjoyed, Pandora support, much better & more robust media file support than what we had with the Susano, and the updated surround processing. It just won't have the build quality you had, but it also won't cost you $7000 either biggrin.gif

Stay in touch smile.gif
Edited by ss9001 - 7/14/13 at 6:30pm
post #60 of 381
I stumbled on this write-up while Googelng: Sabre 32 DAC vs ...Was just wondering if i should wait for the new Pioneer 1523-k to come out using these Sabre-32 DAC's or just buy the 1522-k

Found this write-up from MSB Technology :



A DAC is a circuit that converts digital measures of audio amplitude in discrete steps into a continuous analog electrical equivalent of the sound to be reproduced. We have been taught to associate the number of bits in that digital word with the quality of the calculation, but the rate of the converter also comes into play. If we do conversion at 16 bits, 48,000 times per second, it is not the same as doing conversion at 16 bits and 96,000 times per second. Along comes 1 bit DACs and SACD that convert at a much higher rates and the whole idea of performance and bit depth falls apart. But in a ladder DAC like MSB uses, the performance of the DAC is directly linked to the precision of the ladder, and the number of bits in that ladder are critical.

MSB has been shipping a true 24 bit DAC for many years, and now has produced a true 26 bit DAC in the Diamond DAC IV. But we are now facing bold product claims about a new 32 bit DAC availible, namely the Sabre 32 DAC chip. This is a DAC chip just like any other from Burr Brown, AKM or Analog Devices. Lets look a little deeper to avoid any confusion about what this DAC actually is.

Here is what their web site says. “The advantage of using this 32-bit process to reconstruct a 16-bit digital signal (i.e. Redbook CD) is simple; This process interpolates the digital information more accurately by calculating the finer steps with 32-bit resolution that were lost during the analog-to-digital 16-bit mastering process. “

Notice that they use the word “process “ not DAC. Notice they talk about “reconstruct “ and “interpolate “ - both digital terms, not analog conversion. All this is saying is that they are using a digital filter with “32 bit resolution “ to do their math. Big Yawn.

The DAC in question is the Sabre DAC with a retail price of $39. According to the ESS web site, this DAC is designed to bring “true professional digital audio to the mass consumer home entertainment market “.

Lets look at the Sabre Datasheet. Input resolution is 32 bit. Digital filter: 32 bit architecture. Thats all it has to say except it has a THD of -110 dB. So what is the DAC technology? They do not even say!

We dig deeper and find a White Paper. Ah, it is a delta sigma DAC just like everyone else's. Then we find this quote. “After all the DSP and complex noise shaping of the signal is complete the digital number must be converted to an analog output. In principle the typically six bit number may be applied to a six bit DAC and the analog output is produced. “

So the hot new 32 bit DAC is actually a 6 bit DAC! Right from their own white paper. It is undoubtably a good DAC for the mass consumer market it was designed for. It is certainly nothing of interest to the high-end community, especially as the the DAC, digital filter and sample rate converter that cannot be dissabled are all bundled in a single chip so no opportunity exists to improve its performance.

So be informed and do not be fooled by the over-the-top advertising made by the audio companies who actually use this $39 chip.



????
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