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A 3 way 99db multi configurable SEOS design - Page 9

post #241 of 702
My seating width is 8 feet.
post #242 of 702
Thread Starter 
That's a 21 (42 degree fan) degree listening window. You'll be fine. Any wider is pushing it. I'm talking about the horizontal center. For the vertical arrangement there no issues at all. I have pretty much the exact seating arrangement, but my sidewalls are 10 ft away.
post #243 of 702
Excited about this one.

May be doing a false wall/AT screen some time in 2014. These would be great!
post #244 of 702
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post


Fat shaft. No idea. Erich is deep in caca right now trying to get the horns through customs. Sounds like he's getting jerked around.

Tux. ....I'm very interested in this latest design of yours. Do you have any updates? I would need to purchase this as a kit. I been looking to replace my Infinity Primus 360 fronts for about year since I got my R-972 Sherwood with Trinnov. I have a 15" Rythmik sub that I plan to keep in the mix.
Edited by Augmont - 1/4/14 at 9:11pm
post #245 of 702
Thread Starter 
Hi Augmont.

The SEOS 10 came in literally the day after Christmas. (Or was it the day before. I can't remember). I believe Erich is making up a kit for this, but I haven't talked to him about this speaker for a while, so I'm not sure where he's at there. It has always been in the plan. Just having gotten the parts from Poland, he can now get the kits made and list them on the site, but that won't happen over night, as he still fills orders and has other projects he's working on.
post #246 of 702
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Hi Augmont.

The SEOS 10 came in literally the day after Christmas. (Or was it the day before. I can't remember). I believe Erich is making up a kit for this, but I haven't talked to him about this speaker for a while, so I'm not sure where he's at there. It has always been in the plan. Just having gotten the parts from Poland, he can now get the kits made and list them on the site, but that won't happen over night, as he still fills orders and has other projects he's working on.

I completely understand and will be patient. Thanks for responding. I am very envious of all u guys that can do speaker design and very grateful that you all share ur ideas.
post #247 of 702
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Hi Augmont.

The SEOS 10 came in literally the day after Christmas. (Or was it the day before. I can't remember). I believe Erich is making up a kit for this, but I haven't talked to him about this speaker for a while, so I'm not sure where he's at there. It has always been in the plan. Just having gotten the parts from Poland, he can now get the kits made and list them on the site, but that won't happen over night, as he still fills orders and has other projects he's working on.

As others have said, thanks for letting us know. All that is needed to keep us kids at bay is a little bit of knowledge. biggrin.gif
post #248 of 702
Can't wait to order 3 of these for my LCR biggrin.gif Thanks for the design Tux
post #249 of 702
Tux - I'm looking for "another" winter project to tackle, and these look like they might fit my needs.
(I subscribed to this thread way back when you started it)

I'm looking to DIY L/C/R and side surrounds.
  1. Primary duty: Family room 5.1 usage (I've got sub there already)
  2. Secondary duty: annual fall outdoor movie theatre 2-3 showings/year


Background:
I've got 16 year old Atlantic Technology System 350's in my family room, they are "paid" for and work acceptable, however their 4 ohm load and 90db sensitivity plays havoc with my Denon 4308CI, it goes into shutdown protect mode around -12db from Ref.
I've lived with that with eye towards DIY speakers as repalcement

Here's my family room set-up, pano via iPhone 5s.
It's open family room, the TV/Audio is corner placed due to fireplace, I know not ideal from sound PQ viewpoint but primary HT is the basement and this is "just" 5.1 for casual TV viewing and music when family gatherings happen.
family%2520room%2520pano.JPG

current AT 350 location next to 2005 720p HDTV, that's a recent DIY 12" ported sub there also.
Family%2520Room%2520Install.JPG

Outdoor movie annual fall 2-3 showings/year, I mount the R/L on the walls, and the center goes below the 16ft x 9 ft screen.
The PJ is 29 ft back, people sit between 10 ft and 30 ft, I've had 45 over before
_MG_1165.jpg

I have 3 "free" rear speakers for full 6.1 surround sound, so I don't take the side surrounds down from the family room.
_MG_3337.jpg

So, as placeholder I'm game for these, pending some discussion will they suit my needs, I think they will absolutely.
Kinda funny, as I really like them to be loud and clear for the 2-3 times/year outdoors HT night, and then all the other 348 days/year usage is the 5.1 family room set-up.
post #250 of 702
Thread Starter 
Mtbdudex

Crazy idea. I like it. Well, they would certainly work I think. They should be much easier on your receiver. And have a lot more output outside. I'd suggest the 10-97 for indoors but the second woofer in the 10-99 would definitely be worthwhile I think. My only hesitation would be how do you plan to handle the bass outdoors? I'd suggest a couple of horns by lilmike or something, but what did you have in mind?
post #251 of 702
Tux;
Bass outdoors....what I've done prior was use my 16 year old Atlantic Technology sealed 12" sub along the front wall
_MG_8731.jpg
In the picture above, Sep-2012, I actually used my basement HT floorstanders Paradigm Monitor 9's as R/L running them as full size with the big CC-390 as center, with the Denon 4308CI.
With that AT 12" sealed sub and mains running full size the low bass was "decent", and I went to full 0db MV - that's pretty loud outdoors, fortunately I'm on 2.5 acre so some space between neighbors, who are usually also watching the flick.

btw outdoors I turn off any EQ, just measure speaker distances, run test tones for speaker leveling, and that's it.

At a minimum I was going to now use my DIY 12" ported sub.......as it's also located in the family room, key thing to remember is I need set-up and take down time to move the gear in/out, I've done the outdoor event 5 years now since 2009.
IMG_3824.JPG . IMG_3823.JPG

However......your question did open me up to one or two possibilities......
Since the garage is "my domain" biggrin.gif ... I might be open to re-purpose a sub-driver just for outdoor HT events...
Crazy idea ... I've made 3 DIY subs and have a 18" and 15" SI D2 driver (sealed cabs, used in basement HT), and my recent 12" Ultimax Ported sub used in family room.
I have 3 drivers, I could remove 1 from it's sub, use for outdoor event, then put back into it's sub afterward.
So with help/modeling I might make a horn sub driven by one of those just for epic outdoor events....have it located inside the garage and shoot thru an appropriate sized opening.
Seriously, my garage has a bonus room above with stairs, I could locate a horn sub under those stairs and it's throat would exit to the outdoors. I'd "just" cut a removable plug thru the garage siding, it's stick frame construction so not a big issue.
That would be to the lower left of the screen, located on front wall so in phase with mains.
IMG_3790.JPG

or, just move all my DIY subs out there and let them rip......

To not clutter your design/build thread I'll go ahead and make a separate thread on my combo "family room + Outdoor HT SEOS" speakers.
What's cool about this DIY stuff, it stays with you the rest of your life, since I'm 51, these will definitely see combo indoor/outdoor "duty" for the next 8-10 years while my 3 kids ages 12/10/8 now are still around thru High School.
And something to talk about with family/friends as they come over thru the year's...how these crazy guys on AVS forum helped me way back when...
Edited by mtbdudex - 1/11/14 at 4:01am
post #252 of 702
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Devil 24 View Post

Can't wait to order 3 of these for my LCR biggrin.gif Thanks for the design Tux

I will be ordering 3 of these also!

Are we still a couple of months/weeks out from anything being available?

Thanks!
post #253 of 702
If I built my own box and made it larger, like 18" deep, would I be able to get it to go a little deeper on the bass side?
post #254 of 702
Thread Starter 
Raynist, I'm really not sure. Erich would know. He emailed me and asked about some of the XO components, and I need to get back to him.

rr14, you could get additional output at the tuning I originally used (55hz iirc) but probably not deeper. That would be pretty decent bass down to mid 50s though. If you wanted bass down well into the 40s, unfortunately this woofer just can't do that well. Also consider the power handling that an 80hz XO will provide over a 60hx XO. Something to consider.
post #255 of 702
If someone wanted to build their own enclosure, I can get a kit made up fairly easy. The flat packs are what would take the longest amount of time.
post #256 of 702
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

If someone wanted to build their own enclosure, I can get a kit made up fairly easy. The flat packs are what would take the longest amount of time.

So it isn't the baffle? I know tux gave the height/weidge but not the depth. Are they 12" deep nominally?
post #257 of 702
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

If someone wanted to build their own enclosure, I can get a kit made up fairly easy. The flat packs are what would take the longest amount of time.

Thanks. I lack the skill and tools to make my own enclosure frown.gif

Would these compare well to the JTR Noesis speaker line? I have been looking at those but I would imagine those route would be much cheaper.
post #258 of 702
I haven't heard these yet, or the JTR's, so I couldn't say.

I can get the kit with the baffles done pretty fast, the flat packs would take more time.
post #259 of 702
Thread Starter 
12" was the depth I used.

Erich, since this speaker is available as a single or dual woofer (same XO, just different impedance woofers) and there's also the updated Pure model, I wonder if you got just the baffle done for the single, then someone could add the baffle for the volt 10 to add the second woofer? I'll email you.

Finally, we're getting close.
post #260 of 702
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post


Finally, we're getting close.


Yeah..........we're getting close!
post #261 of 702
How much would it cost for the drivers, seos 10, and crossover because I'll be making mine out of birch. And do you have the ports made for the box? I would just need the one kit because it'll be a center speaker.
post #262 of 702
I think it was going to be around 400 bucks.
post #263 of 702
Thread Starter 
XO is $73.85. I think the woofers are $80 each. Mids are something like $20 each for the buyout version right now. CD is about $30. And the waveguide should be about $25. So, under $350 if you do your own cab, terminals, stuffing, paint, etc.

I've been giving out the BOM and XO schematic upon request via PM. Just shoot me a PM with your email address if you'd like to have it.

EDIT - Ya, $400 was my estimate including a baffle.
post #264 of 702
Can someone explain to me why we need to 2 mids in the middle? Wouldn' a MTM work just as well as a center? I have the Noesis 212, and placed one of them flat as center and it's brilliant.

The only thing is to rotate the horn to give a wider waveguide horizontally.
post #265 of 702
"Wouldn' a MTM work just as well as a center?"

search on mtm and comb filtering or mtm and lobing and you'll see the problem.

or, have a look at the measurements here:

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/projectmay/blog/2004-02.htm

the plots provided are vertical measurements for the upright position. you'd get the same in the horizontal position if you turned the unit sideways.

you can get away with it in the noesis because the crossover point is below the point where lobing will be in the listening window.
post #266 of 702
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Wouldn' a MTM work just as well as a center?"

search on mtm and comb filtering or mtm and lobing and you'll see the problem.

or, have a look at the measurements here:

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/projectmay/blog/2004-02.htm

the plots provided are vertical measurements for the upright position. you'd get the same in the horizontal position if you turned the unit sideways.

you can get away with it in the noesis because the crossover point is below the point where lobing will be in the listening window.

Follow up question.

Both the 12 inch Noesis and the 8 inch version (which is crossed over much higher), can be used as center channel... (they both seem to be able to avoid the lobing issue).

So, the question then is, why can't these seos be built so that they too can be used as center and avoid the lobing?? What's different? The reason I asked is because I like the idea of 3 identical speakers up front and the simplicity of it (it's also better for eric because ONE design can be used as LCR... So, making the choices less... Just imagine an offering with a 4, 6, 8, 10 inch MTMs... Then people just pick and choose depending on how much dynamics/mid bass / size they need..
post #267 of 702
Thread Starter 
Well they can do that with this speaker. No reason they can't work vertically.

The reason the SEOS can't get low enough is the compression driver. Even the big DNA 360 has very low output below 1000hz on the SEOS 12. And the waveguide is losing directivity control.

It's been talked about doing it the way the noesis does it. I think it was LTD who brought up the idea. Just put a honkin' big CD on the SEOS 12 and push it way down below the waveguide's ability to control directivity. But for a center channel, which way do you turn the WG? If you flip it vertically, you'll have very odd directivity. If you keep it horizontal, you'll have very bad lobing.
post #268 of 702
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Well they can do that with this speaker. No reason they can't work vertically.

The reason the SEOS can't get low enough is the compression driver. Even the big DNA 360 has very low output below 1000hz on the SEOS 12. And the waveguide is losing directivity control.

It's been talked about doing it the way the noesis does it. I think it was LTD who brought up the idea. Just put a honkin' big CD on the SEOS 12 and push it way down below the waveguide's ability to control directivity. But for a center channel, which way do you turn the WG? If you flip it vertically, you'll have very odd directivity. If you keep it horizontal, you'll have very bad lobing.

I mean horizontally.

The Noesis 228's crossover is 1000hz or above. And it can be used as a center horizontally...

As for my 212, I use it horizontally as well and it's great sounding... in fact, I love playing music with 5.1 channel, where the 'vocals' are only from the center channel. Since I did not get my Noesis modified, the 'waveguide' in a horizontal position is narrow and sounds best in the LP... move too much to the left and right, and you lose some volume... I imagine if the waveguide were to be switched, it should be fine for a bigger listening angle.

So, back to my question.. if both the 212 (which is crossed low with a massive CD), and the 228 which is crossed high with a small CD can do it, why can't any of the SEOS??? I still haven't got a really good answer... i know there's lobing, but why is it that Jeff can do it and no one else????
post #269 of 702
the noesis have a different horm, different wave pattern
post #270 of 702
In my super UN-technical speak, isn't the difference between the Noesis and Seos horns? The Noesis has an almost square profile where the seos has an exagerated rectangular profile. So in my brain that means the Noesis would have less difference when the WG is rotated 90 degrees vs the SEOS.

I'm sure Tux et. al. can explain that WAY better.

Dispersion Pattern maybe?


Edit: Yeah Sibuna, that.
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