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My new PSA subs and my graphs - Page 9

post #241 of 600
I dont remember if we discussed this, but is placing the subs nearfield a option?
post #242 of 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Same as above except the mains are set to large



1/6th Smoothing



Mdat file if you want it.........

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ssof8g089hn6iqz/80HZMains%20set%20to%20large.mdat

Thank you!

Jumping off the page is the fact that cancellations increase between the mains and subs as the crossover gets lower and is the worst when mains are set to large, which is probably the equivalent to a crossover over of between 30-40 Hz.

Given that, 150 Hz (the highest point used for these traces) is the best cross point with the subs and LP as they were when the measurement was taken.

So, if you have a mind to, use 150 Hz as the crossover and 15-300 Hz as left & right graph limits and run a sweep with the SW distance at 0 ft, another with the distance at 15 ft and a 3rd with the distance at 30 ft. (If your AVR doesn't have a 30 ft distance, use the highest number it offers and divide that by 2 for the 2nd sweep)

Once you've done that, pick the best of the 3 and try +5 ft and - 5 ft to fine tune the distance.

That's a total of 5 traces, no smoothing.
post #243 of 600
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I dont remember if we discussed this, but is placing the subs nearfield a option?

at one point it was, and I tried it. It did not help enough to justify the movement.
post #244 of 600
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Thank you!

Jumping off the page is the fact that cancellations increase between the mains and subs as the crossover gets lower and is the worst when mains are set to large, which is probably the equivalent to a crossover over of between 30-40 Hz.

Given that, 150 Hz (the highest point used for these traces) is the best cross point with the subs and LP as they were when the measurement was taken.

So, if you have a mind to, use 150 Hz as the crossover and 15-300 Hz as left & right graph limits and run a sweep with the SW distance at 0 ft, another with the distance at 15 ft and a 3rd with the distance at 30 ft. (If your AVR doesn't have a 30 ft distance, use the highest number it offers and divide that by 2 for the 2nd sweep)

Once you've done that, pick the best of the 3 and try +5 ft and - 5 ft to fine tune the distance.

That's a total of 5 traces, no smoothing.

Will do.

The null at ~50 gets worse with more energy, or in other words with the mains crossed lower.

I do believe the L shaped room combined with its almost square dimensions is the source of the problem.
post #245 of 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Will do.

The null at ~50 gets worse with more energy, or in other words with the mains crossed lower.

I do believe the L shaped room combined with its almost square dimensions is the source of the problem.

I will admit that I am not nearly as smart as Bosso when it comes to this stuff, but I still think you will end up needing more subs to fix that 50hz null. You have exhausted all other options imo.

As previously mentioned PSA has a B stock XV30 for 1259.00

or

return the XV30's and get 3- XS30's or 4- XV15's

or

return the PSA subs and go DIY. 4-6 SI18's placed around the room would be killer.
post #246 of 600
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I will admit that I am not nearly as smart as Bosso when it comes to this stuff, but I still think you will end up needing more subs to fix that 50hz null. You have exhausted all other options imo.

As previously mentioned PSA has a B stock XV30 for 1259.00

or

return the XV30's and get 3- XS30's or 4- XV15's

or

return the PSA subs and go DIY. 4-6 SI18's placed around the room would be killer.


If anything these are going back and I will get either a triax or some ultras....... I do think these will end up working out with a the pull down of a couple peaks. The null is across 3 seats, and is almost non-existent at my seat.

Don't forget this graph---

post #247 of 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

If anything these are going back and I will get either a triax or some ultras....... I do think these will end up working out with a the pull down of a couple peaks. The null is across 3 seats, and is almost non-existent at my seat.

Don't forget this graph---


How would a Triax or a pair of Ultras fix your issue?
post #248 of 600
Thread Starter 
What issue do you speak of? The most recent issue is upper bass sound. The null issue was figured out some time ago, about the time this thread took a pause.

I think there is something that I am not setting correctly in the mini-dsp. Either that or the woofs are at their limits and I need a more powerful one. Hence the triax/ultra comment.
post #249 of 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

What issue do you speak of? The most recent issue is upper bass sound. The null issue was figured out some time ago, about the time this thread took a pause.

I think there is something that I am not setting correctly in the mini-dsp. Either that or the woofs are at their limits and I need a more powerful one. Hence the triax/ultra comment.

Your peak at one seat and the null at the other. Returning dual xv30's for a Triax or Ultras would be a lateral move except for deeper extension...not to mention neither one of those offerings will fix the nulls and peaks. You need 3-4 subs...If you dont believe me that fine, but I am just trying to save you time and hassle buying something else and not being happy with it. The mini dsp vs the rane is a prime example wink.gif
post #250 of 600
Thread Starter 
I have heard a lot of subs in a lot of cars/vans/trucks. Since M&M over 20 years ago. (first subs I ever heard).

If there is one thing I know it's that extension and output are only two out of three things that makes a sub system. SQ plays a role as well.

Line up 20 subs and each might get as loud, and extend as low. But they will all most certainly sound different.

Don't get me wrong- I appreciate your, everyone elses, and Tom's advice. I'm not trying to argue. Just stating my past experiences.

The mini-dsp was a necessity not a choice. The Rane was a choice, but it did not end up working. The fact a company sells a product without a 5$ power supply, whatever the reason, is IMO.... BS. That said it packs a lot of punch for what it is. I never had a problem with it's features or lack of. It was just me being stubborn.

On the same 'note' I need none of the mini dsp's powerful features. I bypass them all. I simply need to pull down a couple peaks. That's it.

What's the point of multiple subs? What's the point of a PEQ? They both do the exact same thing and each have their pluses and minuses.

With the exception of the L area behind the LP I moved the subs everywhere possible. I even posted the pics of the journey. This has long ago been dealt with, decided on, and handled to the best of my abilities. The room is now built, done.

Replacement subs would only be for a more preferable sound............. if it turns out these subs can't cut it. I really think that I'm doing something wrong with the mini dsp settings. Time will tell.
smile.gif
post #251 of 600
good luck
Edited by basshead81 - 8/17/13 at 7:05pm
post #252 of 600
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

good luck

You didn't have to delete your last post. It was not out of line what so ever. I hear you..............wink.gif

I think you're missing the point on the Rane/Mini . The Rane would have served its purpose if I didn't have a buzz problem. A problem with the Rane or a problem along the line of my connections, I'm not sure and didn't care to spend more time finding out.

The point is all I need is a couple filters. That's all.

I don't know if I have not been clear in my descriptions or if you're not reading my entire posts. The sound issues I am having are certainly not room related. It's either DSP or subs- likely the former.

Check out my RTA graph I recorded. It will show you what's going on more than any one graph will.

I only state my experience with subs in the past to help illustrate my ability to know when something does not sound right.

Again- feel free to re-post your thread. It was not out of line at all. wink.gif
Edited by pdxrealtor - 8/17/13 at 7:17pm
post #253 of 600
Try a receiver with Audyssey MultEQ XT or XT32.
post #254 of 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

You didn't have to delete your last post. It was not out of line what so ever. I hear you..............wink.gif

I think you're missing the point on the Rane/Mini . The Rane would have served its purpose if I didn't have a buzz problem. A problem with the Rane or a problem along the line of my connections, I'm not sure and didn't care to spend more time finding out.

The point is all I need is a couple filters. That's all.

I don't know if I have not been clear in my descriptions or if you're not reading my entire posts. The sound issues I am having are certainly not room related. It's either DSP or subs- likely the former.

Check out my RTA graph I recorded. It will show you what's going on more than any one graph will.

I only state my experience with subs in the past to help illustrate my ability to know when something does not sound right.

Again- feel free to re-post your thread. It was not out of line at all. wink.gif

Ok I see what you are saying now...yea I missed the rta graph. My apologies!
post #255 of 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Don't forget this graph---

This is why I don't understand why you're still driving yourself crazy. Flatten the peak, add a house curve, and see how it sounds (not looks, sounds!).

post #256 of 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

This is why I don't understand why you're still driving yourself crazy. Flatten the peak, add a house curve, and see how it sounds (not looks, sounds!).

This is what I thought too, but it appears that the subs do not sound right in the upper range aside from what the graph shows. It sounds like there is some interference or unwanted noise in the signal. My next question was going to ask if it still persists with the mini dsp unhooked? Or maybe the AVR is picking something up? He said there was a hum issue with the Rane, so maybe its a ground issue or something of that nature??
post #257 of 600
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

This is why I don't understand why you're still driving yourself crazy. Flatten the peak, add a house curve, and see how it sounds (not looks, sounds!).

This '2nd round' started with that one exact goal. Flatten the peak.

In the process I found that using the mini dsp produced a less than desirable sound. This lead to very high volumes of listening at which I believe now looking back was the source of the issues I was hearing with the mini-dsp disconnected.

I plan to try and reproduce it.

But first I would like to figure out what's going on with the mini DSP and why the sound goes so far south. Is it a part of the auto EQ function I"m using in REW? Is it a setting in the DSP I'm using incorrectly, or not using when I should be? I bypassed everything and used filters on the input side. Maybe I should not have done that.??...

I'll be playing around with the mini for a while.

The distance setting is of interest to me as well. I plan to play around with that and see what happens to graph the since I do believe the wall directly behind the LP, and lack of the wall) is the main source of the problem.
post #258 of 600
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

This is what I thought too, but it appears that the subs do not sound right in the upper range aside from what the graph shows. It sounds like there is some interference or unwanted noise in the signal. My next question was going to ask if it still persists with the mini dsp unhooked? Or maybe the AVR is picking something up? He said there was a hum issue with the Rane, so maybe its a ground issue or something of that nature??

It didn't sound like the mini was picking anything up, like was the case with the Rane. It sounded like it was processing something it should not be, or was not processing it should be. Like I said above- everything was bypassed except the filter settings on the input side. And of course the gains were left at infinity.

I think I just had the volume too loud and the subs could not handle it....

I talked with tom and gave him the music file I was using. He was going to looking it. Until then he suggest I plug the iPhone directly into the sub amp, and try a 100 hz xover.
post #259 of 600
I don't think it is the sub. These are supposed to hit about 128 dBs at 50 in a room at the LP and Ricci has a good size room(I can't remember exactly). It is not lacking output at all in the Midbass so did you replicate this sound without the mini in the chain?
post #260 of 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Until then he suggest I plug the iPhone directly into the sub amp, and try a 100 hz xover.

Bingo! You need a new iPhone!

post #261 of 600
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Thank you!

Jumping off the page is the fact that cancellations increase between the mains and subs as the crossover gets lower and is the worst when mains are set to large, which is probably the equivalent to a crossover over of between 30-40 Hz.

Given that, 150 Hz (the highest point used for these traces) is the best cross point with the subs and LP as they were when the measurement was taken.

So, if you have a mind to, use 150 Hz as the crossover and 15-300 Hz as left & right graph limits and run a sweep with the SW distance at 0 ft, another with the distance at 15 ft and a 3rd with the distance at 30 ft. (If your AVR doesn't have a 30 ft distance, use the highest number it offers and divide that by 2 for the 2nd sweep)

Once you've done that, pick the best of the 3 and try +5 ft and - 5 ft to fine tune the distance.

That's a total of 5 traces, no smoothing.


Here you are- Not much difference between them until the upper range.

post #262 of 600
Thread Starter 
Here's the .Mdat if you want to play with it.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/s18a3bz8m9q2hda/8_19_13_Sub%20Distance_xover%20150.mdat
Edited by pdxrealtor - 8/19/13 at 4:41pm
post #263 of 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Here's the .Mdat if you want to play with it.

Umm,...

 

confused.gif

post #264 of 600
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

Umm,...

confused.gif


biggrin.gif
post #265 of 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Here's the .Mdat if you want to play with it.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/s18a3bz8m9q2hda/8_19_13_Sub%20Distance_xover%20150.mdat

Thank you. I did.

And, in my limited experience and with my limited knowledge, I still have to say I've never seen a phase graph like this:

 

 

 

The waterfall, OTOH, looks fabulous.

This is interesting. Especially since YOU'RE doing all the work.

I sincerely hope we end up with something you find satisfactory.

post #266 of 600
Thread Starter 
Had the mini hooked up incorrectly the other day. I was missing an output rolleyes.gif. It's now matching the sound of the speakers disconnected from the mini. I really haven't had time to really crank anything but graphs, but my guess I'll see and hear the same things at the same times on the RTA graph while listening to the sub demo music mini unhooked and mini hooked.

Here's just a graph as a result of a quick auto eq. The eq dropped my volume 5db.

Upped it 5 with the volume- started at 80- and went until the speakers puked. .Mdat file attached. You can see from the picture how they lose output between the last two measures. I was limited at +10 on my receiver so I backed out and added 5 to the sub trim which was at -8, so it dropped me off at -3. Still the same result.

There is only 3db of boost added to the 4 total filters. It was at 48.xx hz. The others are pull downs of the peaks



Mdat file - https://www.dropbox.com/s/64rotxm9oqs03pu/8_19_2013%20after%20auto%20eq%20into%20mini.mdat
post #267 of 600

So eq gets you well within +/- 5dB from 20Hz to 100Hz. biggrin.gif

Flattened the peak (which was the whole idea behind all this). Nice.

I'd add a little more at 20, crank it up and enjoy myself.

You, on the other hand, will probably obsess over something else (like the phase I pointed out earlier).

Seriously, has it started to sound better to you?

post #268 of 600
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

So eq gets you well within +/- 5dB from 20Hz to 100Hz. biggrin.gif
Flattened the peak (which was the whole idea behind all this). Nice.
I'd add a little more at 20, crank it up and enjoy myself.
You, on the other hand, will probably obsess over something else (like the phase I pointed out earlier).
Seriously, has it started to sound better to you?

That's what took so long tonight- trying to add a bit more at 20, via the low shelf. I couldn't get it. Maybe tomorrow.

I will really put it through it's paces with music tomorrow during work hours.

I have no idea what that phase means you pointed out earlier, and unless I have to I don't care to find out.

I'm trading up to a triax so I'll be nice and polished when that happens. wink.gif
post #269 of 600
105db is max output?
post #270 of 600
Thread Starter 
Last one for the night. Here's a full range with MCACC and without. Smoothed to 1/6th.


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