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My new PSA subs and my graphs - Page 12

post #331 of 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

something is either connected wrong or the subs are faulty because those should be rocking that room!

Hence the 300+ posts trying to track down the problem. wink.gif

Unsuccessfully. frown.gif

post #332 of 600
Well, after looking at the picture and how close the subs are to the OP it is either user error or sub error(faulty). I wish I looked at the pics before I posted, could have saved some time. I null is bad but he should be getting 120+ dBs everywhere else and maybe a null at 50hz(still put them on that platform) but it should be getting better numbers. Check to make sure the AVR settings and or bluray players dynamic compression is off as well.
post #333 of 600
Thread Starter 
There is no way those subs, even if I was willing to, would fit on that platform. That platform is actually a 10 inch ledge and ~2 inches has window trim invading space.

Those Jbl 3677 are mounted to the ledge and window boards with multiple angle brackets, and they are half as deep as those subs. I also have 4" of oc703 wedged in on that entire wall.

I did try at one point to put the subs one in each corner, both facing in both facing out.

I really think the fact the room being 16x15 and the speakers firing back into the L opening is the cause for my response problems.

The fact I open the door, which is at the corner of the back wall that is the 8ft section of wall closest to the front wall where the speakers are, and lose 4-5 db of my peak/null says that energy is being let out and not reflecting as badly off that back wall. Whereas the second half of that back wall is the L and is 8ft deep so energy has an extra 8ft of space in that half of the room.

It doesn't matter where I have moved those subs the response has been best where they are at. I did put one behind the chairs with no success too. The only place I did not try was.... In the L area. The only place they could end up in the L area is in the back corner, which is a sliding glass door. frown.gif I really should have tried one back there to see what happened but since it wasn't an option i just couldn't bring myself to lug one back there just to see.

I am satisfied with the response assuming its not the cause of the output problem. As MK said, I should be getting the output in a peak at the least.

I will check the DR setting on the receiver, but I went through audio settings and turned it all off one by one. Even tried some while on etc.

Most of this thread has been about trying to get the response. When I got the mini dsp and flattened things out is when this thread turned into an output issue.

After reading and thinking back, and producing all the graphs, I am convinced the 'odd' sounds I was hearing from the subs a few days ago while listening to music was the subs being overdriven, or the mini being hooked up wrong. In fact the next thing I am going to do is get the subs up to the volume level they crap out at and play the sub test music OEB gave me in this thread. The same music I was listening to that day.
post #334 of 600
Thread Starter 
I don't see dynamic compression in my receiver settings. I have a boundary gain compensation setting which compensates for excessive bass resulting from a boundary gain affect.

Anything else it could be called? It's a Pioneer receiver.....
post #335 of 600

Setting it to "Pure Direct" will bypass all the correction in the AVR.

BTW, if you haven't ordered that cable from monoprice yet, use coupon code EMP0794.

Michael

post #336 of 600
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

Setting it to "Pure Direct" will bypass all the correction in the AVR.
BTW, if you haven't ordered that cable from monoprice yet, use coupon code EMP0794.

Michael

Thanks, I will. Pure direct sticks it PCM mode.

I've been putting into standard stereo mode.
post #337 of 600
Thread Starter 
Just put it in pure direct, it does put it in PCM, no noticeable difference. Thanks ... I'll use pure direct in the future and won't have to mess with my audio settings.

I thought PCM would have changed the graphs. That's what I get for thinking.
post #338 of 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

I don't see dynamic compression in my receiver settings. I have a boundary gain compensation setting which compensates for excessive bass resulting from a boundary gain affect.

Anything else it could be called? It's a Pioneer receiver.....

Look in the AUDIO PARAMETER menu. It is labeled DRC and its default setting is AUTO (which means it's engaged). Select OFF. This may have no effect on the test materials you're using, but do it anyway.

Also, there is a setting called LOUD MGMT which becomes available when DRC is OFF. Apparently, it is used for Dolby TrueHD. So, again, it may have no effect on your testing materials, but turn it OFF anyway.

If your system sounds wimpy and you've been driven balmy trying to figure out why, check the DRC.
Edited by Oliver Deplace - 8/22/13 at 2:24pm
post #339 of 600
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Deplace View Post

Look in the AUDIO PARAMETER menu. It is labeled DRC and its default setting is AUTO (which means it's engaged). Select OFF.

Thanks.... it was not there under pure direct, but was under standard stereo. I turned it off, although since it wasn't there in pure direct I'm not too excited that's going to change anything.

I'll know next time I run tests. However at this point I've ran quite a few max db sweeps and it seems they all end up the same.
post #340 of 600
You posted while I was editing.
post #341 of 600
I just walked around my entire room with my rat shack meter and was hitting a between 124-126db uncorrected everywhere except for a small null spot in the center. Thats 3-xv15's, 20x15x8 room(with 6x7 opening into the rest of the house), avr volume @ -5, sub gain @ 3:00, avr sub trim -3, playing house music via Pandora. There was still headroom left being I have hit 130 at my seat.

Something definately does not add up...I hope the Triax gives you better results because if my setup will hit 124+ db across the entire room then those duals 30's should be putting out the same numbers if not more.

Ill keep thinking of possible solutions and get back with ya...the only thing is I think everything possible has been covered or mentioned.
post #342 of 600
Thread Starter 
Got any tones you can play? If not you could download a couple. I'd like to see what you get with just subs.

Like a 25hz and a 65hz? Or even a sweep. I think Ethan Winer has some on his site, but not sure.
post #343 of 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Got any tones you can play? If not you could download a couple. I'd like to see what you get with just subs.

Like a 25hz and a 65hz? Or even a sweep. I think Ethan Winer has some on his site, but not sure.

Rew has tones...when I get a chance i will hook the gear up.

Here is a sweep I took back when I just had dual xv15's. this was taken from the main LP @ 2m from the subs. I had another 2-3db of headroom left, but I backed it down when I ran this sweep being I did not want to risk damaging the subs. I recorded 115db @ 15hz with a rew test tone shortly after I got the ballz to crank it up another notch. that was max because turning it up louder did not increase output.

http://db.tt/FB7q9XFR
post #344 of 600
Thread Starter 
Damn... that's the big peak you've spoken of. You weren't kidding!

I didn't know you had REW. I just suggested tones because I thought that would be easier.

:What are you waiting for? Hook that thing up and run some max DB sweeps!! smile.gif
post #345 of 600
Also I wonder if it has something to do with your Pioneer. I only cranked my sub gain up to 3:00 to try and simulate your situation. That much gain has my subs running crazy hot...that is using the LFE input. Imo it has to be a issue with the signal feeding the subs...almost like its clipping being you have to run so much gain.
post #346 of 600
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Also I wonder if it has something to do with your Pioneer. I only cranked my sub gain up to 3:00 to try and simulate your situation. That much gain has my subs running crazy hot...that is using the LFE input. Imo it has to be a issue with the signal feeding the subs...almost like its clipping being you have to run so much gain.

I am just shy of 3, but close enough. Don't forget my AVR is -10 on the sub trim to get a 75db test tone. That's both subs at 75, not each one. I could easily go down and lower my sub trim. I like to have some room to bump up and not approach the zero mark on the sub trim.

I thought clipping too. Even looked it up to see what I should look/listen for. I very well could be hearing clipping and not the limiter. BUT... isn't the limiter supposed to prevent serious clipping??

I wonder if I could plug a mic to RCA cord into my computers out jack and plug an RCA into the input on the sub and use REW?

I gave Tom a bunch more info today. I will wait and see what he says.

Another thing that came to mind- your amp has more watts per speaker than the xv30s.
post #347 of 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

I am just shy of 3, but close enough. Don't forget my AVR is -10 on the sub trim to get a 75db test tone. That's both subs at 75, not each one. I could easily go down and lower my sub trim. I like to have some room to bump up and not approach the zero mark on the sub trim.

I thought clipping too. Even looked it up to see what I should look/listen for. I very well could be hearing clipping and not the limiter. BUT... isn't the limiter supposed to prevent serious clipping??

I wonder if I could plug a mic to RCA cord into my computers out jack and plug an RCA into the input on the sub and use REW?

I gave Tom a bunch more info today. I will wait and see what he says.

Another thing that came to mind- your amp has more watts per speaker than the xv30s.

Keep us posted when you hear back from Tom.

Concerning the watts per driver, keep in mind the second driver makes the XV30 more efficient than the XV15. wink.gif
post #348 of 600
Thread Starter 
Will do.....

I find it odd Josh had the same issue. It sounds like he was using just an SPL meter so it might have been hard for him to give Tom as much info as I have. I'm hoping if the problem is not on my end, it's an amp calibration problem.

I mean, I've got everything here to test and diagnose whatever he requests. Graphs and numbers tell a different story than interpretation of how it sounds, at least interpretation from someone like me. HA!

I'm sure he thought I was nuts on the phone the other day. I was so worked up and I just couldn't correctly convey what was going on. rolleyes.gif

Now that I sent some hard data along with some more conversation he should be much better informed than last week. At least with my situation.

He was actually going to take the same exact MP3 I used, put it on his phone, like I did, and try to replicate what was happening to me. Hell of guy...... !
post #349 of 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

I am just shy of 3, but close enough. Don't forget my AVR is -10 on the sub trim to get a 75db test tone. That's both subs at 75, not each one. I could easily go down and lower my sub trim. I like to have some room to bump up and not approach the zero mark on the sub trim.

I thought clipping too. Even looked it up to see what I should look/listen for. I very well could be hearing clipping and not the limiter. BUT... isn't the limiter supposed to prevent serious clipping??

I wonder if I could plug a mic to RCA cord into my computers out jack and plug an RCA into the input on the sub and use REW?

I gave Tom a bunch more info today. I will wait and see what he says.

Another thing that came to mind- your amp has more watts per speaker than the xv30s.

If I set my sub gain @ 3:00 and run my calibration it says out of range...I have to set my subs @ 1:30- 2:00 to get at -10 when I run the avr calibration software, then i add back in 5-7db because I like to run hot. when I say clip the signal I do not mean the sub will actually clip, I mean you will lose headroom and distortion will be present.
post #350 of 600
Thread Starter 
My Pioneer says the exact same thing and sets the sub at -12. It's obviously off by a bit. I always re-cal my levels so it doesn't bug me.

I understand clip the signal. What signal are you talking about? I don't think you can clip the output signal.....AVR output that is.
post #351 of 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

My Pioneer says the exact same thing and sets the sub at -12. It's obviously off by a bit. I always re-cal my levels so it doesn't bug me.

I understand clip the signal. What signal are you talking about? I don't think you can clip the output signal.....AVR output that is.

If you can not clip the avr signal then why would you calibrate to 75db @ -10 instead of 0?
post #352 of 600
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

If you can not clip the avr signal then why would you calibrate to 75db @ -10 instead of 0?

I didn't think the voltage that the AVR put out via the sub out is able to be clipped..meaning its static... no? I thought only amplifiers putting out watts could clip.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipping_%28audio%29

An amplifier without enough volts from its source could clip, or an amplifier being asked to put out too many watts could clip.

In any event to answer your question-

I calibrate at 75 to get -10 so I have 10 DB of headroom. It's an easy two button bushes to adjust the sub level 3, 4, 8, or up to 10 DB. If I set it at zero / 75db how would I get extra bass when I want it?
post #353 of 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

I didn't think the voltage that the AVR put out via the sub out is able to be clipped..meaning its static... no? I thought only amplifiers putting out watts could clip.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipping_%28audio%29

An amplifier without enough volts from its source could clip, or an amplifier being asked to put out too many watts could clip.

In any event to answer your question-

I calibrate at 75 to get -10 so I have 10 DB of headroom. It's an easy two button bushes to adjust the sub level 3, 4, 8, or up to 10 DB. If I set it at zero / 75db how would I get extra bass when I want it?

on my yamaha i can go +/-10db from 0 on the sub trim level, but a few members far more knowledgeable than myself say to not add positive sub trim in the avr as it can clip the signal or reduce headroom. I have verified with my spl meter that this is true...atleast on yamahas.
post #354 of 600
Thread Starter 
Well damn ... that makes sense doesn't it?!!?

I have read over and over not to go past 0 on the sub trim but now that you mention that I realize I never really read why.....
post #355 of 600
Thread Starter 
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1462679/integrating-sub-lots-of-questions-gain-noise-crossover-etc


There's a thread with a ton of info. Much easier for me to ask Tom what volts I need at what volume. smile.gif

I did try to increase volume at the stalling point by upping the sub trim, with the same result. If I remember right I only got to -3, but if that's not close enough something is wrong with the AVR.
post #356 of 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

If I set my sub gain @ 3:00 and run my calibration it says out of range...I have to set my subs @ 1:30- 2:00 to get at -10 when I run the avr calibration software, then i add back in 5-7db because I like to run hot. when I say clip the signal I do not mean the sub will actually clip, I mean you will lose headroom and distortion will be present.

MCACC will set the trim to -10 or a similar number if the gain on the sub is turned to high. Turning the sub gain way up or turning up the avr sub level result in the same max spl for a given subwoofer. A sub is design for a max spl and you can't squeeze anymore out since it is determine by sub driver, cabinet size, ect. It is best with MCACC to have it -3 to +3 which will leave plenty of room to increase or decrease the level. If you are at -12, most like the system did not calibrate properly and that was the best that autocalibration could do with the sub gain off the charts.
post #357 of 600
Quote:
on my yamaha i can go +/-10db from 0 on the sub trim level, but a few members far more knowledgeable than myself say to not add positive sub trim in the avr as it can clip the signal or reduce headroom. I have verified with my spl meter that this is true...atleast on yamahas.

It is true for all AVRs; but relative loudness of sub is room dependent. For example, my room is on smallish side and corner loading yields 8-9dB extra spl eek.gif. Audyssey messes up things if I let it do its thing and sets the sub trim to negative max.
All the auto cal programs do the same. So, I long gave up auto cal systems and do it rather manually. I always set my sub trim -3dB in AVR with ultimate max point at 00 on the trim level. For the sub; I always keep the dial at around 10 o clock with max not going beyond 1 o clock max. If still there is too much of boom; bfd is at hand to tame the response. But I prefer not to use it.

One more thing 0dBFS is nothing in realworld use. Whatever volume you are comfortable with; keep the MV at that point. Forget about how far you are from 0dBFS and do not try to compensate manually or rely too much on DynamicEQ. You will mess up more than you can possibly gain. I would match 0dBFS only if um running at least 4 very capable subs.
post #358 of 600
You should never use max or min trim levels, you should adjust the gain knob on the sub amp to make sure the trims are in an adequate range, same for speakers.
post #359 of 600
Thread Starter 
Mk- I have tried both and see no difference in graphs. Not to say those settings aren't optimal, just saying they have no affect on my max spl.

I was viewing some graphs ive saved along my journey and the phase contorl graphs caught my eye. I wonder if I am losing some serious DB by adjusting on cabinet to just above +45 on the phase knob. Check out this graph


Edited by pdxrealtor - 8/24/13 at 1:10pm
post #360 of 600
Thread Starter 
ehhh... you can see I get a nice boost with the phase at zero on both cabs, but only from 15-30hz.

With the phase at 45+1 I get a much better overall graph. At least that's how I see it anyways....
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