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My new PSA subs and my graphs - Page 18

post #511 of 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

If I might ask you a couple of questions PDX...What previous HT bass systems have you heard and what were your subs prior to these? What is your bass background? (Some people are 2 ch guys, HT, some are live sound guys, car audio competitors, musicians, etc...)

I ask because a lot of the time car audio guys and to some extent pro sound guys are underwhelmed with even very capable HT subs because their frame of reference is formed by much louder and higher tuned bass systems. I'm not saying this is the cause of your issues or anything like that it just popped in my head and I was wondering if perhaps it could be a factor in your subjective impression of the subs.

Good luck either way.

Good point. I think it might help to know his audio back ground which I believe PDX stated was car audio.

Fwiw I have a car audio back ground... I am use to 140dbs of bass from pair of sealed 15's in a ext. cab f-150. 3 xv15's are still impressive in a 2400^3 room. Those dual XV30's should be equally impressive if not more...obviously not at your level, but I wouldnt imagine anybody calling a pair of xv30's weak no matter what there background is. 130db of bass is more than most want to tolerate for extended periods. The only time I run up that loud is for demo. Most of the time i keep the subs around 110-115db tops, which is where PDX 30's are running out of steam. I still have 15db of headroom and his subs are compressing.


none the less this is a very strange situation. Damn Indian burial grounds I tell ya.
post #512 of 600
It looks like you lose 4-6 db by adjusting one sub to 45 degrees phase. This is basically the added output of a second subwoofer below ~ 40 hz so you are measuring the output of a single sub over that range. I would forget the phase difference between subs sitting next to each other imo.

Didn't you say you were losing ~ 4-5 db because of rear wall cancellation issues? If so this is now a combined 8-11 db.

You don't have the subs plugged into a power strip do you? If so could be limiting amps available power. Plug directly into outlet.

Some rooms are just plain difficult. My buddies room acts like its twice as large as it is. He went through several sets of subs in a relatively short time until finally being satisfied with dual ported caps and 5000 watts. He sits relativily close just like you. I have taken my subs to his place and i get something like 8-12 db more at my place.

You could do a nearfield measurement like a couple inches from driver to test if mic clipping. Much louder at 2 inch vs. 2 ft. You can also measure one sub at a time, moving subs to same position between measurements leaving mic in same place. This will show you if they have same native response, and can see if both limiters kick in at same time.

Are you checking driver excursion? If you are getting the excursion below 30hz when limiters kicking in, one more issue to rule out.

May just be a case of a tough room and a man who likes a lot of bass. There is a reason we see 16x18", 8x 18", 21"x.... You are not alone around here. smile.gif
post #513 of 600
Kind of why I'm wondering where he is located, just curious if there are other forum members nearby who may be willing to take their own subs to his place to see if the results are drastically different.

Though I think at this point the OP may be just tired of trying different things. Can understand the frustration.
post #514 of 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

Kind of why I'm wondering where he is located, just curious if there are other forum members nearby who may be willing to take their own subs to his place to see if the results are drastically different.

Though I think at this point the OP may be just tired of trying different things. Can understand the frustration.

I agree, he could also try them in another room such as a bedroom just to test.

A good graphic to look at is cabin gain and room gain. Sure a couple 15 s in a car is awesome, but how many car cabins could you fit in a room.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=content&id=2
http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=content&id=80

At 20hz thats ~ 30 db difference, 17hz ~20, in free gain vs the in room.
post #515 of 600
Thread Starter 
Just spoke with Tom. Evidently there is nothing wrong with my subs. Turns out my cheap mic and lack of intelligence isn't so bad after all, because PSA and their measuring equipment that takes three hours to setup is going to end up being very close to my measurements.

You see..... what is taking so long is they are trying figure out why these are performing different in different environments. But... in the same sentence they tell me I don't have a problem.

Never mind the my 2FT measurement because something is wrong with that one, or was it that's the one that's OK and going to match with theirs. I can't keep all of their excuses straight.

And never mind my ears. They're not right either. Or I expect too much. The music I am listening to is a download and therefor there is no reference so when the subs fall off while playing this music it's the musics fault.

FWIW the first thing I asked Tom is for me to send in the subs and amps to eliminate all the variables and he said sure... if I pay for the shipping, because there is nothing wrong with them. You see their mind has been made up for the last two weeks. There is nothing wrong with these subs.

It is my room, my ears, my lack of intelligence, my measuring equipment (that oddly enough is now matching their equipment), it is a setting on the AVR, etc.

Buyer beware..... you have a problem with these subs and there are so many variables it's impossible for the buyer to get any resolution because Tom will not consider a problem with his product is even a possibility. Not once did Tom ever even slightly consider there might be a problem with the subs. Not once.

In doing some research I see not only are there three people on this forum that have not been happy with their 30s, but a couple on another forum as well.

I have not been able to find one unhappy person with an xv 15 or xs 15/30. So either there is something wrong with the v30s or per Tom there is nothing wrong and that means these xv30s are weak weak systems.

To answer Ricci's question. I have a background of being around music since I was born. My father is a well known jazz musician, around the world, not locally. He is a bass player, big string bass player, but he can play it all since he is also a college professor who teaches music. I grew up in rehearsals, behind stage, etc. I know what I hear. Might not know how to describe it, produce it, change it, etc.... but I know it.

I also have extensive time playing around in car audio. From the weakest subs to the subs that leave you dizzy after getting out of a car. A sub is a sub and I find it odd you would suggest that if I have background in car audio I might understand how a sub woofer system designed for home would sound.

I also find it odd that you show up around the time you did and then in conversation Tom uses your posts on here to further try and defend this sub system and further discredit my umpteen pages of troubleshooting. Troubleshooting that, may I point out again, is going to match PSAs troubleshooting before this is all said and done.

Everyone talks about how Tom is great, and his CS is great. And to a point that is true. But part of great CS is not finding anyway possible to prove a customer wrong.

I feel like I bought something from one of those no questions asked return policies places. And the no questions asked return was setup to guarantee you would not be able to take back your item due to the conditions of the policy. I can't think of an example but I'm sure you all know what I'm talking about.
post #516 of 600
Just for the record for those that don't know I am one of the above mentioned people on this forum that have not been "happy".

I'd like to post by saying that I think my single XV30F in a 8,000+ cubic foot area does great for home theater (for my liking and my dads at least). That said, I am also looking for live concert level "pressurization" when listening to music and that is something that the XV30F isn't delivering. Although I realize I am asking more from the sub that it can produce considering concert level bass uses just more than a single dual 15" 750 watt RMS subwoofer.

So please, don't consider my wanting more bass as not liking the XV30F. I'm just looking for something more smile.gif
post #517 of 600
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarretc View Post

Just for the record for those that don't know I am one of the above mentioned people on this forum that have not been "happy".

I'd like to post by saying that I think my single XV30F in a 8,000+ cubic foot area does great for home theater (for my liking and my dads at least). That said, I am also looking for live concert level "pressurization" when listening to music and that is something that the XV30F isn't delivering. Although I realize I am asking more from the sub that it can produce considering concert level bass uses just more than a single dual 15" 750 watt RMS subwoofer.

So please, don't consider my wanting more bass as not liking the XV30F. I'm just looking for something more smile.gif

I think that's a lot of people's points. According to what PSA is saying this sub should be, you should not be looking for something more.
post #518 of 600
PDX - I think what Josh was getting at was simply wondering if you had an extensive background in car audio which obviously (given the small chamber) would result in a significantly different "bass" experience than a home theater. I.e., unlikely you'll get the same pressurization, and if by chance you were expecting that (which you've said you werent) that could explain some of the issue. Also, similar to what Luke and I was asking, what experience you had with HT subs in that room prior to these. E.g., are you also seeing a big difference in performance between what you had before and now.

I was also wondering if you were in a location where other "friendly' forum users were so that they could possibly bring their subs to see if all of a sudden the performance changed in your particular room, which is a huge part of teh equation here.

No one was trying to offend or belittle you at all, if that is how you took it, apologies.
post #519 of 600
PDX - I think what Josh was getting at was simply wondering if you had an extensive background in car audio which obviously (given the small chamber) would result in a significantly different "bass" experience than a home theater. I.e., unlikely you'll get the same pressurization, and if by chance you were expecting that (which you've said you werent) that could explain some of the issue. Also, similar to what Luke and I was asking, what experience you had with HT subs in that room prior to these. E.g., are you also seeing a big difference in performance between what you had before and now.

I was also wondering if you were in a location where other "friendly' forum users were so that they could possibly bring their subs to see if all of a sudden the performance changed in your particular room, which is a huge part of teh equation here.

No one was trying to offend or belittle you at all, if that is how you took it, apologies.
post #520 of 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

I think that's a lot of people's points. According to what PSA is saying this sub should be, you should not be looking for something more.

Where do they say that? Do you have a reference post somewhere or on their site where the say that the XV30F produces live concert level SPL in a home?
post #521 of 600
Thread Starter 
Here is what I was supposed to be getting- per my pre-purchase conversation with Tom. This was after he reviewed my room sketch and was aware of door openings etc....
_________________________________________________________________

Support Power Sound Audio

Jun 16

to me
Hi Matt,

A pair of XV15s should do it in this room environment.....unless you prefer the subwoofer channel to be louder than the rest of the channels.

With all speakers set to small the subwoofer(s) may be required to produce up to 118dB or so with the most demanding source material. If you like the bass to be 2-3dB louder than the rest of the speakers that increases to 120-121dB.

A single XV15 will offer strong extension down to the 14-16hz range with clean output capabilities of 115-121dB (placed 2-3 meters from the seats). A second XV15 will add 4 or 5dB to that based on your intended placement.



Dual XV15s and a single XV30 will have nearly identical extension, output, and overall sound quality. The dual XV15s have the potential to provide smoother bass coverage over a variety of seating positions. The advantage in going with a single XV30 is you'll have an easy upgrade path down the road(just as a second XV30) and it is a bit less expensive ($1399 versus $1518).


Ok, thanks. And then add how many DBs for a second xv30f?
Support Power Sound Audio

Jun 16

to me
If it was within 10-12ft of the first go with about 5dB across the board.

Also, remember that the 2010-CEA is all done outside in a quasi anechoic manner. If you performed the same testing but with one wall against the subwoofer you add 6dB. Add two walls(corner) and you add 12dB.

2010 CEA is a nice standard because you can get an idea of how different products perform in the same environment. However, you will always enjoy *much* higher output numbers once you put the subwoofer in a typical room. Not only will you see "boundary gain"(being near one or two walls) but you will also see increased bass output because of the "room pressure vessel effect"....commonly called room gain.

Tom Vodhanel
post #522 of 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post


Everyone talks about how Tom is great, and his CS is great. And to a point that is true. But part of great CS is not finding anyway possible to prove a customer wrong.

I feel like I bought something from one of those no questions asked return policies places. And the no questions asked return was setup to guarantee you would not be able to take back your item due to the conditions of the policy. I can't think of an example but I'm sure you all know what I'm talking about.

Wow, I'm really sorry to hear that you've had such big problems trying to get these behemoths to perform! You sound like a man with a tremendous amount of patience and not to have these subs perform has got to be a huge bummer. I feel your pain, pdx. I know when I ordered the XS30 that I already had in the back of my mind that I'd return it even before the 30-day trial ended if they did not perform to my expectations (I don't have a lot of patience with audio equipment that doesn't perform as advertised). I was going to give the XS30 no more than 2 weeks tops, and if I wasn't happy it would have been on the fast track back to Ohio. Fortunately, I didn't have any problems, and I knew almost immediately that I made a good decision.

I wish you the best in finding the subwoofer that is right for you. Sounds to me that if anyone deserves a great sub, it is you … and there are a lot of great subwoofers out there. At least with SVS, they provide free shipping both ways and a 45-day trial period (and a bunch of other perks).
post #523 of 600
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

PDX - I
No one was trying to offend or belittle you at all, if that is how you took it, apologies.

The only person I feel belittled by is Tom. That's it.

I appreciate every single person who has come on here and showed interest and/or tried to help with my situation. Even those who have suggested things I really didn't think was necessary or things I really didn't want to do, but did anyways because I wanted to get to the bottom of this.

Someone bringing over their subs would not really do anything. These subs sound great until a certain point, then they fall off. They are deep, rich, and pound pretty good. They just fall off well before they should. Well before Tom described they would.
post #524 of 600
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post

Wow, I'm really sorry to hear that you've had such big problems trying to get these behemoths to perform! You sound like a man with a tremendous amount of patience and not to have these subs perform has got to be a huge bummer. I feel your pain, pdx. I know when I ordered the XS30 that I already had in the back of my mind that I'd return it even before the 30-day trial ended if they did not perform to my expectations (I don't have a lot of patience with audio equipment that doesn't perform as advertised). I was going to give the XS30 no more than 2 weeks tops, and if I wasn't happy it would have been on the fast track back to Ohio. Fortunately, I didn't have any problems, and I knew almost immediately that I made a good decision.

I wish you the best in finding the subwoofer that is right for you. Sounds to me that if anyone deserves a great sub, it is you … and there are a lot of great subwoofers out there. At least with SVS, they provide free shipping both ways and a 45-day trial period (and a bunch of other perks).

Thanks for your kind words. I actually read your 4-5 page thread last night. I think it was yours, you were in it a lot.

I really wanted to get these back to PSA and go with either four xv15 or xs 15/30 but after my conversation with Tom today I just don't think that would be a good idea being he swears there is nothing wrong these. Too bad because I was going to drop another grand on more product.

The only complaints, a side from shadyj smile.gif, I have come across are complaints of the xv30.
post #525 of 600
Thread Starter 
My how quickly things turn 180* for the good.

Just got an email from Tom who has made the situation the best it could possibly be and it seems, although I don't want to speak for him, that they might be considering the fact something could be wrong with my subs. Either that or he is just keeping a customer happy.

I told him after he gets them back and evaluates them, that if he feels I would be happy, I would order another pallet of subs from him.
post #526 of 600
any details on what could be wrong?
post #527 of 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

My how quickly things turn 180* for the good.

Just got an email from Tom who has made the situation the best it could possibly be and it seems, although I don't want to speak for him, that they might be considering the fact something could be wrong with my subs. Either that or he is just keeping a customer happy.

I told him after he gets them back and evaluates them, that if he feels I would be happy, I would order another pallet of subs from him.

I'm happy to hear that Tom is stepping up to the plate big time! You have a lot more trust in people than I do;). I'll keep my fingers crossed, and I wish you only the best. Please keep us all informed of how things progress.
post #528 of 600
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

any details on what could be wrong?

As I said, Tom never said anything was or might be wrong. Just the impression I got was that for the first time they might be considering that as just one of the many 'variables'.
post #529 of 600
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post

I'm happy to hear that Tom is stepping up to the plate big time! You have a lot more trust in people than I do;). I'll keep my fingers crossed, and I wish you only the best. Please keep us all informed of how things progress.

Me too!

I am very intuitive, and do in general trust people. But I never put a side logic and common sense.

I was actually very blown away that things started to unfold the way they were. It was completely opposite of what I've read and experienced dealing with Tom over the last couple months.

Thanks again for the kind words. Will certainly keep everyone updated.
post #530 of 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Me too!

I am very intuitive, and do in general trust people. But I never put a side logic and common sense.

I was actually very blown away that things started to unfold the way they were. It was completely opposite of what I've read and experienced dealing with Tom over the last couple months.

Thanks again for the kind words. Will certainly keep everyone updated.

How many people have you read about that have been unhappy with their subs the way you have? You can't really compare your experience with him to theirs as they have not had as many "issues" as you've had so your experience may vary.
post #531 of 600
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarretc View Post

How many people have you read about that have been unhappy with their subs the way you have? You can't really compare your experience with him to theirs as they have not had as many "issues" as you've had so your experience may vary.

I'm not clear on what you are saying.

But let's make sure you understand I have not had multiple 'issues'. I've had one issue, and thrown multiple troubleshooting methods at that issue.

I've read about you, Josh, and a couple of guys over on audioholics. All with the same problem, output issues. Whether those output issues are real issues or high expectations will soon be figured out. I actually didn't read your thread and Josh's thread. Both your issues came to light in my thread.

The only difference between them and me is I went through extensive testing to verify what my ears were hearing and then more testing to verify my testing. I wasn't content with just saying these aren't good enough and sending them back. I did enough research prior to purchase to know there's a very good possibility something isn't right with my subs.
post #532 of 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

To answer Ricci's question. I have a background of being around music since I was born. My father is a well known jazz musician, around the world, not locally. He is a bass player, big string bass player, but he can play it all since he is also a college professor who teaches music. I grew up in rehearsals, behind stage, etc. I know what I hear. Might not know how to describe it, produce it, change it, etc.... but I know it.

I also have extensive time playing around in car audio. From the weakest subs to the subs that leave you dizzy after getting out of a car. A sub is a sub and I find it odd you would suggest that if I have background in car audio I might understand how a sub woofer system designed for home would sound.

I also find it odd that you show up around the time you did and then in conversation Tom uses your posts on here to further try and defend this sub system and further discredit my umpteen pages of troubleshooting. Troubleshooting that, may I point out again, is going to match PSAs troubleshooting before this is all said and done.

Awesome...I can't tell you the number of times I have seen the scenario on this or other forums where a former car audio bass head has gotten a little older and decides to put more effort into his HT and buys what he thinks should be a great sub system only to be dissappointed with the lack of punch or output or whatever compared to their experience with car systems.It happens all the time. I don't know you or your background so I figured why not ask. It can help other people get a ballpark idea of what another persons expectations might be that's all. BTW I did quite a bit of car audio myself years back, nothing against car audio guys or anything it's just they often have much different perspectives on what the bass should sound like. The reference point is much different.

Nothing odd about my posts at all. I have had no correspondance with Tom in months and certainly none on this subject. I read most every thread that sounds interesting but I try to avoid posting much any more.This one seemed to have a lot of interest and was getting a little more technical with the measurements and things so I started reading it and came in to it late. I had and still do have some questions about a few things but there is no point to that now. (Trying to troubleshoot someone elses problems over the net is difficult to say the least anyway.)
post #533 of 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

I'm not clear on what you are saying.

But let's make sure you understand I have not had multiple 'issues'. I've had one issue, and thrown multiple troubleshooting methods at that issue.

I've read about you, Josh, and a couple of guys over on audioholics. All with the same problem, output issues. Whether those output issues are real issues or high expectations will soon be figured out. I actually didn't read your thread and Josh's thread. Both your issues came to light in my thread.

The only difference between them and me is I went through extensive testing to verify what my ears were hearing and then more testing to verify my testing. I wasn't content with just saying these aren't good enough and sending them back. I did enough research prior to purchase to know there's a very good possibility something isn't right with my subs.



One thing I was going to ask, do the subs show much excursion before they quit getting louder? Do you notice much air pumping out of the ports?
post #534 of 600
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Awesome...I can't tell you the number of times I have seen the scenario on this or other forums where a former car audio bass head has gotten a little older and decides to put more effort into his HT and buys what he thinks should be a great sub system only to be dissappointed with the lack of punch or output or whatever compared to their experience with car systems.It happens all the time. I don't know you or your background so I figured why not ask. It can help other people get a ballpark idea of what another persons expectations might be that's all. BTW I did quite a bit of car audio myself years back, nothing against car audio guys or anything it's just they often have much different perspectives on what the bass should sound like. The reference point is much different.

Nothing odd about my posts at all. I have had no correspondance with Tom in months and certainly none on this subject. I read most every thread that sounds interesting but I try to avoid posting much any more.This one seemed to have a lot of interest and was getting a little more technical with the measurements and things so I started reading it and came in to it late. I had and still do have some questions about a few things but there is no point to that now. (Trying to troubleshoot someone elses problems over the net is difficult to say the least anyway.)

Cool. Thanks for addressing that.

As I posted a bit earlier, these subs sound great.... full, rich, deep, but at a certain volume they fall a part. A volume that I think based on several factors, using my ears, is too low. The graphs just back up what my ears are hearing.
post #535 of 600
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

One thing I was going to ask, do the subs show much excursion before they quit getting louder? Do you notice much air pumping out of the ports?

I just had this typed out in my reply to Ricci, but decided it wasn't relevant so deleted it... way too weird you should ask this at this exact time!

NO ... the excursion is very weak. I noticed this a few days ago and actually had to get down and look at them from a sideways view to see they were moving. They were moving pretty good, but Normally it doesn't take but a glance when woofs are pounding out the bass.

Any system that is pushing it's limits I've ever seen has woofers bouncing big time and should be visible from many many feet away at any angle.

Are your XVs showing mass excursion?
post #536 of 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

I just had this typed out in my reply to Ricci, but decided it wasn't relevant so deleted it... way too weird you should ask this at this exact time!

NO ... the excursion is very weak. I noticed this a few days ago and actually had to get down and look at them from a sideways view to see they were moving. They were moving pretty good, but Normally it doesn't take but a glance when woofs are pounding out the bass.

Any system that is pushing it's limits I've ever seen has woofers bouncing big time and should be visible from many many feet away at any angle.

Are your XVs showing mass excursion?

Hmm, would you be able to record a video of one of the subs playing a track? Since we both have XV30Fs we may be able to "compare" (minus certain variables of course) how much excursion they have.

As in you pick a test song on YouTube and record the excursion and let me know and I can see if mine is producing the same amount?
post #537 of 600
Thread Starter 
There is mp3 that one eye blind posted on.... wait I bookmarked it... here it is..... http://kiwi6.com/file/28ub13rh6w

Download that and put it on your phone. Pick a time slot, there's a few good ones, and record it. I'm happy to do that. It might be a couple days.

I'm really not in any hurry any longer. I put away the mic and everything else. But I don't mind throwing up a video comparing excursion if it helps the community.
post #538 of 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

I just had this typed out in my reply to Ricci, but decided it wasn't relevant so deleted it... way too weird you should ask this at this exact time!

NO ... the excursion is very weak. I noticed this a few days ago and actually had to get down and look at them from a sideways view to see they were moving. They were moving pretty good, but Normally it doesn't take but a glance when woofs are pounding out the bass.

Any system that is pushing it's limits I've ever seen has woofers bouncing big time and should be visible from many many feet away at any angle.

Are your XVs showing mass excursion?

Oh yea big time! I should take a video of the air coming out of the ports blowing my plants around lol.
post #539 of 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

There is mp3 that one eye blind posted on.... wait I bookmarked it... here it is..... http://kiwi6.com/file/28ub13rh6w

Download that and put it on your phone. Pick a time slot, there's a few good ones, and record it. I'm happy to do that. It might be a couple days.

I'm really not in any hurry any longer. I put away the mic and everything else. But I don't mind throwing up a video comparing excursion if it helps the community.

Well I downloaded to my phone and went to plug into my receiver to listen and then record and then remembered I was going to use my phone to record the video with so that won't work biggrin.gif

I assume you have WoTW or similar? Maybe we could run a test with a movie section instead.
post #540 of 600
Thread Starter 
Burn a CD or do you have a long cord?

I don't have WOTW, I have FOTP on the way though.
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