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Is the Seaton SubMersive HP the Benchmark Sub? - Page 6

post #151 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

At this point, I think the most important points were made throughout the thread, but I feel compelled to add my proverbial two-cents.

What it all comes down to is trust.

I don't trust the marketing verbiage of most retail subwoofers (and other audio products). I do trust the opinions of many people in these forums and that is what brought me to buy very expensive ID subs. Now I do trust many of the ID vendors themselves and their data, but by principle, having a third party (whom we trust!) able to actually reproduce those numbers is extremely important IMHO. Call it basic science or journalistic integrity if you will. As most end users won't have the knowledge and/or time and/or setup to reproduce the tests, Josh Ricci's role becomes increasingly important.

But equally important is the subjective impressions of those we trust. The value of this forum (and others) is in the network of trust it creates between members, manufacturers, and testers, and is probably the main driver behind most ID sales, and how the ID market could develop in the first place.

If I had the money to buy a Submersive (and the HT room that would have to come with it), I'd feel confident enough to do it right now because I trust the subjective opinion of many Submersive owner. The same is not true with similarly-priced retail subwoofer owners. But having a third-party tester confirming the manufacturer numbers would add another layer of confidence that it would be money well invested.

+1^^ Imo well said...
post #152 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Just one question; where can I go to hear it? biggrin.gif

Jim, if you are ever in Cincinnati, give me a PM and come over for a demo! smile.gif
post #153 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Jim...What can I say I sometimes get a little absurd with my designs...I wanted to try a power port design...Sad thing is I sold that for $500 with a driver worth more than that alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

You sold that for only 5 bills?! eek.gif Somebody got one heckuva deal, that's for sure.

Thanks again Josh! I love this sub and it blends in perfectly with the 4 sealed subs...

I have "ten bills" total investment...I needed to purchase an amp, gas money for the truck and the speeding ticket on the way home...I guess I was in a hurry to hear the sub!tongue.gif
post #154 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post

Jim, if you are ever in Cincinnati, give me a PM and come over for a demo! smile.gif

Will do. Thanks for the invite!
post #155 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post



Thanks again Josh! I love this sub and it blends in perfectly with the 4 sealed subs...

I have "ten bills" total investment...I needed to purchase an amp, gas money for the truck and the speeding ticket on the way home...I guess I was in a hurry to hear the sub!tongue.gif

I can attest to the ticket as I was in the car...laugsbach was like a kid at Christmas waiting to open his 'big' present! After listening to this sub, I would have gotten a speeding ticket too!

 

BTW laugsbach...still waiting on your review of the "big guy"...

post #156 of 455
As a former SubM owner, and a now DIY sub owner, the SubM is absolutely one of the benchmark subs out there.

Well designed cabs, drivers, power, and DSP are the key. The SubM, Captivator, and PSA subs in the ~2000+w range should all perform exceptionally well.

My DIY dual 18s + minidsp were inspired by the SubM, and surpasses it in performance. It is also almost 3 times the size.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
post #157 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

As a former SubM owner, and a now DIY sub owner, the SubM is absolutely one of the benchmark subs out there.

Well designed cabs, drivers, power, and DSP are the key. The SubM, Captivator, and PSA subs in the ~2000+w range should all perform exceptionally well.

My DIY dual 18s + minidsp were inspired by the SubM, and surpasses it in performance. It is also almost 3 times the size.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

Do you have a build thread for that sub? It sounds interesting.
post #158 of 455
Guy buys sub, wants Josh to run the numbers and he gets told Seaton doesn't prefer anyone do that?

The SM has been on the market for 6 years. Complaints about someone like MKT buying one and sending it to Josh for numbers because Seaton doesn't want it done or that it has the potential to turn Seaton Sound into Epik are as silly as it gets.

Though I agree that the CEA 2010 regimen does not result in a perfect-real-program-in-room correlation, it's what we have for comparisons sake, which is all that Ed's, Ilk's, Slarti's and Josh's efforts were ever supposed to be.

The Ultra has been tested by everyone who has a computer and a decent mic. What's the big?

Excluding DIY, the 'Digm Sub2 is the "benchmark" single, sealed sub, with Nathan's 18.0 breathing down its neck. Like it or not, without comparative objective numbers (the reasons for not having or wanting which are cool for whatever reason anyone wants to offer as an opinion or preference), a sub doesn't get to wear the "benchmark" badge.

G2Gs were mentioned. Any of them have a pair or 3 Sub 2s or FW18.0s in the lineup? And, please spare us the $ comments; the thread title doesn't mention pricing, per-dollar ratios or bangs-for-bucks.

I actually have in mind to buy a SM and have it shipped to Josh only because of the absurdity of folks asking Seaton if it would be OK. rolleyes.gif
post #159 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Guy buys sub, wants Josh to run the numbers and he gets told Seaton doesn't prefer anyone do that?

The SM has been on the market for 6 years. Complaints about someone like MKT buying one and sending it to Josh for numbers because Seaton doesn't want it done or that it has the potential to turn Seaton Sound into Epik are as silly as it gets.

Though I agree that the CEA 2010 regimen does not result in a perfect-real-program-in-room correlation, it's what we have for comparisons sake, which is all that Ed's, Ilk's, Slarti's and Josh's efforts were ever supposed to be.

The Ultra has been tested by everyone who has a computer and a decent mic. What's the big?

Excluding DIY, the 'Digm Sub2 is the "benchmark" single, sealed sub, with Nathan's 18.0 breathing down its neck. Like it or not, without comparative objective numbers (the reasons for not having or wanting which are cool for whatever reason anyone wants to offer as an opinion or preference), a sub doesn't get to wear the "benchmark" badge.

G2Gs were mentioned. Any of them have a pair or 3 Sub 2s or FW18.0s in the lineup? And, please spare us the $ comments; the thread title doesn't mention pricing, per-dollar ratios or bangs-for-bucks.

I actually have in mind to buy a SM and have it shipped to Josh only because of the absurdity of folks asking Seaton if it would be OK. rolleyes.gif

Well said Boss!! After a year or two on the market, I can accept that. After six years on the market and the reason is the same----not so much!!!!! It's a bit hypocritical for those who accept the reasons given for the SM not being tested and yet still refer to Josh's Data-bass when judging/comparing other subs.
post #160 of 455
What happened with the Epik subs? Too many orders and they imploded? Quality control fell off?
post #161 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

What happened with the Epik subs? Too many orders and they imploded? Quality control fell off?

Epik was always a bit hard to get a hold of and it was made worse. They did a blow sale of Legends and Empires and they fell off the map. The website has been updated that new products are coming but before the recent update they had no updates or forum posts for 6 months. Some where able to get through to Chad but many more weren't. I think some customers are still waiting on help with warranty issues. I doubt many on the forums will by from them now. They lost a lot of respect for just falling off the map and ignoring customers.
post #162 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

What happened with the Epik subs? Too many orders and they imploded? Quality control fell off?

Priced too low for much profit margin, ****** amp, couldnt full fill orders, lack of customer service...need I say more? smile.gif
post #163 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Guy buys sub, wants Josh to run the numbers and he gets told Seaton doesn't prefer anyone do that?
Dave,

Please re-read post #124. I'll re-post the pertinent paragraphs here:
Quote:
Yes, they're my subs, and I could send one in for testing if I wanted to. Mark hasn't "forbidden" me from sending one in, and there is no legal action he could take if I did. But I would only be doing it for the sake of the forum, and to put an end to all the debate and speculation and whining. For myself, I don't need any 3rd party verification of the Submersive's performance capabilities. All I need to do is walk into my theater and I have all the proof I need. I have measured my own Submersives in my own room, and I know EXACTLY what they're capable of.

Frankly, it's more important to me to respect Mark's timetable than it is to provide the forum with some numbers. I consider Mark a friend, I am not about to jeopardize that friendship just so the self-proclaimed "experts" on this forum have some numbers to bandy about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Excluding DIY, the 'Digm Sub2 is the "benchmark" single, sealed sub, with Nathan's 18.0 breathing down its neck. Like it or not, without comparative objective numbers (the reasons for not having or wanting which are cool for whatever reason anyone wants to offer as an opinion or preference), a sub doesn't get to wear the "benchmark" badge.
That's fine. I don't think Mark, or anyone else, has tried to portray the Submersive as THE BENCHMARK sub. In fact, Mark has some things in the works that go beyond the Submersive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I actually have in mind to buy a SM and have it shipped to Josh only because of the absurdity of folks asking Seaton if it would be OK. rolleyes.gif
Please feel free to do so. I have decided not to. One of the reasons is that it is no easy or cheap task to ship a 130# subwoofer halfway across the country, not to mention the issue of it being damaged in shipment, and the subsequent hassle of getting it repaired or replaced. If you want to undertake those costs/risks, by all means do so.

Craig
post #164 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

What happened with the Epik subs? Too many orders and they imploded? Quality control fell off?

I guess PSA is in real jeopardy now since the XV15 has been measured and posted on Data-bass, in way less than a year after being on the market.
post #165 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

Do you have a build thread for that sub? It sounds interesting.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1453474/stereo-integrity-dual-18
post #166 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by atabea View Post

I guess PSA is in real jeopardy now since the XV15 has been measured and posted on Data-bass, in way less than a year after being on the market.

I expect PSA will be out of business very soon, I don’t see how they could go on now that the numbers have been posted. Actually the whole Data list is right on the brink from what I understand? Our only option is going to be brick & mortar and DIY. While DIY is fine with me, I doubt many will be very happy about having no ID option in the future. I know I always liked having a option anyway. It’s quite tragic.. frown.gif
Quote:
I actually have in mind to buy a SM and have it shipped to Josh only because of the absurdity of folks asking Seaton if it would be OK. rolleyes.gif

wink.gif
post #167 of 455
Honestly, I think think whether people have realized it or not the LMS 5400 Ultra 18" in a small sealed cube with sufficient power has been the unofficial "benchmark" for a long time. I don't think anything else has been compared to nearly as often as the LMS, but I could be wrong.

I don't think there's anything wrong with this, and I'm not saying it's the best sub out there or the best bang/buck, etc... It's just a very solid, simple standard that I think makes a great benchmark right now and for years to come.

I think if you start looking at B&M, ID or DIY sub measurements on Data-Bass you'll probably find yourself glancing at the LMS 5400 for a comparison sooner or later.
post #168 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

Honestly, I think think whether people have realized it or not the LMS 5400 Ultra 18" in a small sealed cube with sufficient power has been the unofficial "benchmark" for a long time. I don't think anything else has been compared to nearly as often as the LMS, but I could be wrong.

I don't think there's anything wrong with this, and I'm not saying it's the best sub out there or the best bang/buck, etc... It's just a very solid, simple standard that I think makes a great benchmark right now and for years to come.

I think if you start looking at B&M, ID or DIY sub measurements on Data-Bass you'll probably find yourself glancing at the LMS 5400 for a comparison sooner or later.

Its also a DIY option. Most people in this section are looking at pre built subs. So really it has no bearing unless Tc sounds releases a a complete finished sub.
post #169 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

Its also a DIY option. Most people in this section are looking at pre built subs. So really it has no bearing unless Tc sounds releases a a complete finished sub.

I don't think that's really as important as it seems when talking about a benchmark. It's simply a simple respected standard to which we measure other things against. It also avoids making a ridiculous thread where people tout their own brands as a benchmark. biggrin.gif

Besides, just like people on the DIY side want to build something they know compares favorably to ID/B&M options, people in this section I'm sure like to buy subs with a known comparison to good options in the DIY world though they may lack the capabilities/resources to go that route.

And while I am proposing the LMS Ultra be a benchmark (http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=3&mset=35), I'm also proposing that I think it's already been a sort of benchmark perhaps since Ilkka's tests. Like I said, I think many find themselves glancing at the LMS Ultra for comparison when browsing Data-Bass even looking at commercial options.

Just a thought, maybe I'm way off.
post #170 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

I don't think that's really as important as it seems when talking about a benchmark. It's simply a simple respected standard to which we measure other things against. It also avoids making a ridiculous thread where people tout their own brands as a benchmark. biggrin.gif

Besides, just like people on the DIY side want to build something they know compares favorably to ID/B&M options, people in this section I'm sure like to buy subs with a known comparison to good options in the DIY world though they may lack the capabilities/resources to go that route.

And while I am proposing the LMS Ultra be a benchmark (http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=3&mset=35), I'm also proposing that I think it's already been a sort of benchmark perhaps since Ilkka's tests. Like I said, I think many find themselves glancing at the LMS Ultra for comparison when browsing Data-Bass even looking at commercial options.

Just a thought, maybe I'm way off.

Your in the commercial sub section..... while the TC sounds LMS Ultra is impressive its also not an option for people on this part of the forum. The DIY forum yes...
post #171 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

Its also a DIY option. Most people in this section are looking at pre built subs. So really it has no bearing unless Tc sounds releases a a complete finished sub.

Which hopefully will be soon...
post #172 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Which hopefully will be soon...

Ya so do I. It would brake their bad track record. lol
post #173 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Which hopefully will be soon...
"Pre-orders fall, 2012."cool.gif
post #174 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

Your in the commercial sub section..... while the TC sounds LMS Ultra is impressive its also not an option for people on this part of the forum. The DIY forum yes...

I guess I'm not being very clear. I know where I am. I'm not saying the LMS Ultra is the best sub out there. I'm not saying it's a great bang/buck. I'm not saying it's an option for anyone in particular.

It doesn't have to be an option to be a benchmark! Your potential options are compared against the benchmark.
post #175 of 455
Quote:
Your in the commercial sub section..... while the TC sounds LMS Ultra is impressive its also not an option for people on this part of the forum. The DIY forum yes...

I see your point and am not saying it doesn't have any validity, but imo DIY has it’s place over here as ID has it’s place over in DIY.. it comes up all the time.
post #176 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post

"Pre-orders fall, 2012."cool.gif

Yea, they're definitely behind schedule. I've been in contact with them for about a year now, and there's a good chance I'll be getting my hands on a LMS15-P1 when they do finally ship. I hope it works out because I'm looking forward to that review.
post #177 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Guy buys sub, wants Josh to run the numbers and he gets told Seaton doesn't prefer anyone do that?

The SM has been on the market for 6 years. Complaints about someone like MKT buying one and sending it to Josh for numbers because Seaton doesn't want it done or that it has the potential to turn Seaton Sound into Epik are as silly as it gets.

Though I agree that the CEA 2010 regimen does not result in a perfect-real-program-in-room correlation, it's what we have for comparisons sake, which is all that Ed's, Ilk's, Slarti's and Josh's efforts were ever supposed to be.

The Ultra has been tested by everyone who has a computer and a decent mic. What's the big?

Excluding DIY, the 'Digm Sub2 is the "benchmark" single, sealed sub, with Nathan's 18.0 breathing down its neck. Like it or not, without comparative objective numbers (the reasons for not having or wanting which are cool for whatever reason anyone wants to offer as an opinion or preference), a sub doesn't get to wear the "benchmark" badge.

G2Gs were mentioned. Any of them have a pair or 3 Sub 2s or FW18.0s in the lineup? And, please spare us the $ comments; the thread title doesn't mention pricing, per-dollar ratios or bangs-for-bucks.

I actually have in mind to buy a SM and have it shipped to Josh only because of the absurdity of folks asking Seaton if it would be OK. rolleyes.gif

Have to say I'm happy someone beat me to the asinine nature of what was going down for an alarming number of posts. You'd have thought first-borns were on the line with the test results.


James
post #178 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

I expect PSA will be out of business very soon, I don’t see how they could go on now that the numbers have been posted. Actually the whole Data list is right on the brink from what I understand? Our only option is going to be brick & mortar and DIY. While DIY is fine with me, I doubt many will be very happy about having no ID option in the future. I know I always liked having a option anyway. It’s quite tragic.. frown.gif
wink.gif

Can you explain what you mean, by PSA going out of business and ID going away? I just checked out the XV-15 pages and didn't see much of anything negative in the comments, and the graphs looked fine. And what do you mean about the Data list being on the brink? Brink of what?
post #179 of 455
Quote:
Can you explain what you mean, by PSA going out of business and ID going away?
It's a sarcastic reference to a comment made by Mark Seaton - something along the line of how a published review might generate more business, which could cause his business to fail.

It's unlikely that increased interest in theirs subs would cause Seaton or PSA or any other well-run ID subwoofer company to fail.
post #180 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

It's a sarcastic reference to a comment made by Mark Seaton - something along the line of how a published review might generate more business, which could cause his business to fail.

It's unlikely that increased interest in theirs subs would cause Seaton or PSA or any other well-run ID subwoofer company to fail.

IMHO, that's not what Mark was really saying. It seems that he simply wants to have his ducks in a row before seeking greater exposure. He wants to have a proper web site to point new customers to and a familiar on-line ordering process. He needs to make sure that his supply line is there so that he doesn't end up in back-order hell. etc, etc. I think that this is being both considerate of his current customers and his potential customers. I mean, I love to see numbers just like anyone, but I also know, as everyone should by now, that Mark Seaton is a class-A guy who does not have a history of BSing people.
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