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Is the Seaton SubMersive HP the Benchmark Sub? - Page 10

post #271 of 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Speaking of "Benchmark", most of us DIYers usually say something simplistic like "DIY Rules" or similar when "best", "Benchmark", etc., words are used. Given that it's always just a simple statement of fact and most people fail to use the objective data, one-to-one across the board, I thought it might be interesting to do just that with no words at all, thanks to Josh Ricci:

I took the CEA 2010 Max Burst data from Josh's site of a single UXL-18 driver in a simple sealed non-specific enclosure powered by a real amplifier and with zero EQ, limiters or other 'protection' or manipulation devices that are found on EVERY commercial offering, including the SM. I then scaled and overlaid the same data for the top commercial subs Josh has tested and created an animation to show the dominance of a DIY sub in its simplest form.

The highest output ported commercial subs could only equal the sealed DIY sub at their respective tune and drop off immediately thereunder, bursting the ported-at-tune myth.

The commercial subs are numbered in the animation and are as follows:

1. Chase VS-18
2. Rythmik FV15HP
3. PSA XV15
4. Paradigm Sub 2
5. Outlaw LFM-1 EX
6. Funk 18.0
7. Epik Empire
8. ED A7S-450
9. Velo DD18

http://picasion.com/i/1VwNV/

I just found this to be a fun exercise with results us DIYers have always known, the more zealous of us tending to rub it in on the commercial forum, and thought I'd pass it along for your entertainment.

Are you still building / selling subs bosso?
post #272 of 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

Big deal, the PB13-Ultra was measured outdoors.

I'm not even going to bother with that rolleyes.gif
post #273 of 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

why are you getting so butthurt anyway? All because I said all top tier subs should have third party testing? Actually I sit 6ft from my xv15's, but hey how did you know that, oh thats right probably because i mentioned it.

So you admit to merely adding to the redundancy of this already derailed thread then? Not only that, you have also recommended non d-b tested subs which simply highlights your double standards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I am a member of several forums and have a good rep on all of them...xda developers, ls1 tech, to name a few. However there is always that one internet d-bag that like to run his mouth.

Nothing to say to this except to lol...
Quote:
Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

I would "re-butt" the nonsensical drivel point by point, but I don't care enough. You act as if someone came in your house and literally took a dump on your subs. I'm a fan of the Submersives--would buy a couple if I could afford em. But your dogged defense of not having empirical, comparable, standardized data is, dare I say it, redundant. But, I've said my piece. Carry on....

Comprehension is severely lacking. Please, humor me and find the post where I do the following: dogged defense of not having empirical, comparable, standardized data. Just LOL. Another attempt at trolling meets fail rolleyes.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

What the hell are you talking about? I have NEVER said any bad about Mark or his products. I have a great deal of respect for him and all he has done. All I've ever said is that its a shame a SubM HP hasn't had any 3rd party measurements done by Josh, and I say that purely from the perspective of its a great sub and I'm curious to see what the actual numbers are. So why don't you go troll somewhere else instead of trying to pick a fight rolleyes.gif

From the first page of this thread, there has been little else except lamenting the fact the subm has yet to be tested by Josh, so my point is what do you think your worthless, redundant posts are achieving if you are merely reiterating the same drivel over and over? You've had 20 posts in this thread alone, so if you're looking for the troll.. rolleyes.gifrolleyes.gif
post #274 of 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Speaking of "Benchmark", most of us DIYers usually say something simplistic like "DIY Rules" or similar when "best", "Benchmark", etc., words are used. Given that it's always just a simple statement of fact and most people fail to use the objective data, one-to-one across the board, I thought it might be interesting to do just that with no words at all, thanks to Josh Ricci:

I took the CEA 2010 Max Burst data from Josh's site of a single UXL-18 driver in a simple sealed non-specific enclosure powered by a real amplifier and with zero EQ, limiters or other 'protection' or manipulation devices that are found on EVERY commercial offering, including the SM. I then scaled and overlaid the same data for the top commercial subs Josh has tested and created an animation to show the dominance of a DIY sub in its simplest form.

The highest output ported commercial subs could only equal the sealed DIY sub at their respective tune and drop off immediately thereunder, bursting the ported-at-tune myth.

The commercial subs are numbered in the animation and are as follows:

1. Chase VS-18
2. Rythmik FV15HP
3. PSA XV15
4. Paradigm Sub 2
5. Outlaw LFM-1 EX
6. Funk 18.0
7. Epik Empire
8. ED A7S-450
9. Velo DD18

http://picasion.com/i/1VwNV/

I just found this to be a fun exercise with results us DIYers have always known, the more zealous of us tending to rub it in on the commercial forum, and thought I'd pass it along for your entertainment.

Interesting post bosso and it does highlight DIY as the best bang for the buck.

Just one thing: I think the gif needs to be stretched out a little bit... it's just too fast frown.gif
post #275 of 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

So Audiofan1. You are not in the group that says, "bass is bass?" Rather the camp that different subs have different sonic characteristics? I'm not poking you but an honest question. smile.gif

Sonic characteristics indeed , its got to be clean, you wouldn't call shrill sounding tweeters delicate or garbled mids articulate, why does bass have to be this give me the biggest boom and the rest get lost or the sound stage collapses due to much distortion in the bass because, surely you would know when a tweeter or mid is reaching its limit. But if that bass is just as good as good highs and good mirange then well to the ears it should sound good as well. I don't want to hear my sub or my speakers just the music or movies they are reproducing.
post #276 of 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Well if that test on the KK was in a corner then it would take 8 to equal the sub2 at 16hz! A corner adds at least 6 dBs to the output so put that sub2 in the same corner and add 6 dBs to be fair. Now it is 90 dBs for the KK vs 108 dBs for the sub2. That is 8 subs my friend.

Umm! each sub you add you add 6db across the board , now add + 6 for each being in the corner, 16hz isn't the only note you have to deal with and now keep the distortion low, and how do you know the sub2 wasn't in the corner already, and even if so, a Quattro would slaughter it. cool.gif
post #277 of 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by Follz20 View Post

Another attempt at trolling meets fail rolleyes.gif

Trolling? Seriously?

And the prosecution rests.
post #278 of 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Speaking of "Benchmark", most of us DIYers usually say something simplistic like "DIY Rules" or similar when "best", "Benchmark", etc., words are used. Given that it's always just a simple statement of fact and most people fail to use the objective data, one-to-one across the board, I thought it might be interesting to do just that with no words at all, thanks to Josh Ricci:

I took the CEA 2010 Max Burst data from Josh's site of a single UXL-18 driver in a simple sealed non-specific enclosure powered by a real amplifier and with zero EQ, limiters or other 'protection' or manipulation devices that are found on EVERY commercial offering, including the SM. I then scaled and overlaid the same data for the top commercial subs Josh has tested and created an animation to show the dominance of a DIY sub in its simplest form.

The highest output ported commercial subs could only equal the sealed DIY sub at their respective tune and drop off immediately thereunder, bursting the ported-at-tune myth.

The commercial subs are numbered in the animation and are as follows:

1. Chase VS-18
2. Rythmik FV15HP
3. PSA XV15
4. Paradigm Sub 2
5. Outlaw LFM-1 EX
6. Funk 18.0
7. Epik Empire
8. ED A7S-450
9. Velo DD18

http://picasion.com/i/1VwNV/

I just found this to be a fun exercise with results us DIYers have always known, the more zealous of us tending to rub it in on the commercial forum, and thought I'd pass it along for your entertainment.
Point me to how to put the sub that generated the reference line in your graph together. please.
post #279 of 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Umm! each sub you add you add 6db across the board , now add + 6 for each being in the corner, 16hz isn't the only note you have to deal with and now keep the distortion low, and how do you know the sub2 wasn't in the corner already, and even if so, a Quattro would slaughter it. cool.gif

You are not understanding the basic concepts here. The sub2 was tested by ricci outdoors at 2 meters groundplane, it is on his site. The KK sub(I used to love M&K BTW) was tested where, inside? You do realize that if you put the sub2 in a corner it will get the same gain as the KK. There is a reason we all want the subs to be tested by the same person in the same location. A sub that gets 90 dBs at 15hz in a corner is not very good. The sub2 gets 102 dBs outside at 16hz. When you put that in a corner it adds around 6 dBs to it so now it will get 108 dBs with lower THD(that is what rooms do). Now it takes 6 dBs per doubling of subs(not every sub) so to reach 108 dBs the KK needs 8 of them. 96 for two, 102 for 4, 108 for 8, get it?
post #280 of 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

Point me to how to put the sub that generated the reference line in your graph together. please.

It is like putting together a puzzle but with a screw driver and hammer.
post #281 of 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by Follz20 View Post

So you admit to merely adding to the redundancy of this already derailed thread then? Not only that, you have also recommended non d-b tested subs which simply highlights your double standards.
Nothing to say to this except to lol...
Comprehension is severely lacking. Please, humor me and find the post where I do the following: dogged defense of not having empirical, comparable, standardized data. Just LOL. Another attempt at trolling meets fail rolleyes.gif
From the first page of this thread, there has been little else except lamenting the fact the subm has yet to be tested by Josh, so my point is what do you think your worthless, redundant posts are achieving if you are merely reiterating the same drivel over and over? You've had 20 posts in this thread alone, so if you're looking for the troll.. rolleyes.gifrolleyes.gif

why dont you go crawl back in your cave...its obvious you have a complex.
post #282 of 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

why dont you go crawl back in your cave...its obvious you have a complex.

You first wink.gifcool.gif
post #283 of 456
Well, I think that about sums it up folks.
Lets do this again real soon, ok.

priceless !!!
post #284 of 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenkzy56 View Post

Well, I think that about sums it up folks.
Lets do this again real soon, ok.

priceless !!!

It’s been quite the thread all-right. wink.gif
post #285 of 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenkzy56 View Post

Well, I think that about sums it up folks.
Lets do this again real soon, ok.

priceless !!!

Lets end this thread with some words of wisdom that are directed at Noone but Everyone should remember

Arguing on the internet is like entering the Special Olympics No matter who wins Your still Retarded.smile.gifbiggrin.gif:D

Chris
post #286 of 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

You are not understanding the basic concepts here. The sub2 was tested by ricci outdoors at 2 meters groundplane, it is on his site. The KK sub(I used to love M&K BTW) was tested where, inside? You do realize that if you put the sub2 in a corner it will get the same gain as the KK. There is a reason we all want the subs to be tested by the same person in the same location. A sub that gets 90 dBs at 15hz in a corner is not very good. The sub2 gets 102 dBs outside at 16hz. When you put that in a corner it adds around 6 dBs to it so now it will get 108 dBs with lower THD(that is what rooms do). Now it takes 6 dBs per doubling of subs(not every sub) so to reach 108 dBs the KK needs 8 of them. 96 for two, 102 for 4, 108 for 8, get it?

I think you still don't get it! maybe you should hold off till Ricci test a KK, maybe then a better consensus can be performed. I do see you only care about output and its pointless to have an discussion about bass and the hallmarks of what would be considered benchmark performance. I'll let those who continue to test the KK write up their findings and you can read em and silently let off a Hmm! in your own head wink.gif
post #287 of 456
I expect all these to have great sounding bass! Your sub was tested to produce 90 dBs at 15 hz indoors. This means it will be lower outside unless that room was a huge warehouse. Output matters when the sound is the same or very similar.
post #288 of 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I expect all these to have great sounding bass! Your sub was tested to produce 90 dBs at 15 hz indoors. This means it will be lower outside unless that room was a huge warehouse. Output matters when the sound is the same or very similar.

Hey Man it is what it is, just keep an eye out for the reviews, as a search will yield some interesting findings on other test performed even by some DIY like yourself , Its a fantastic sounding sub and has really proven something special on movies and music . Here's a link across the pond where i've found some end users and industry professionals' and even the Big Dog himself Ken chimes from time to time.

enjoy!


Here's a good place to start

http://www.avforums.com/forums/subwoofers/1785301-ken-kreisel-professional-sound-subwoofers-part-4-a-7.html
post #289 of 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

I think you still don't get it! maybe you should hold off till Ricci test a KK, maybe then a better consensus can be performed. I do see you only care about output and its pointless to have an discussion about bass and the hallmarks of what would be considered benchmark performance. I'll let those who continue to test the KK write up their findings and you can read em and silently let off a Hmm! in your own head wink.gif

No, I think you still don't get it. Yes, the KK is a nice sub. Whatever benefits it gets from corner loading will apply to other subwoofers. Yes, you get +6dB when you double up - not +6dB for each sub. And that applies to other subwoofers as well.

I would love to see that subwoofer tested as well.
post #290 of 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Speaking of "Benchmark", most of us DIYers usually say something simplistic like "DIY Rules" or similar when "best", "Benchmark", etc., words are used. Given that it's always just a simple statement of fact and most people fail to use the objective data, one-to-one across the board, I thought it might be interesting to do just that with no words at all, thanks to Josh Ricci:

I took the CEA 2010 Max Burst data from Josh's site of a single UXL-18 driver in a simple sealed non-specific enclosure powered by a real amplifier and with zero EQ, limiters or other 'protection' or manipulation devices that are found on EVERY commercial offering, including the SM. I then scaled and overlaid the same data for the top commercial subs Josh has tested and created an animation to show the dominance of a DIY sub in its simplest form.

The highest output ported commercial subs could only equal the sealed DIY sub at their respective tune and drop off immediately thereunder, bursting the ported-at-tune myth.

The commercial subs are numbered in the animation and are as follows:

1. Chase VS-18
2. Rythmik FV15HP
3. PSA XV15
4. Paradigm Sub 2
5. Outlaw LFM-1 EX
6. Funk 18.0
7. Epik Empire
8. ED A7S-450
9. Velo DD18

http://picasion.com/i/1VwNV/

I just found this to be a fun exercise with results us DIYers have always known, the more zealous of us tending to rub it in on the commercial forum, and thought I'd pass it along for your entertainment.

Best post in this thread.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. No need for 10 pages about commercial subs being a benchmark.

Make the benchmark simple; a single quality driver in a no-nonsense sealed enclosure with real power and no compromises and look at what we can do.

We can compare commercial subs to this benchmark and see what those compromises leave us with (plate amps, enclosure size/shape, EQ, limiters, other protection/manipulation, etc...).

The UXL-18 is one great example as it doesn't leave much on the table to the LMS-5400 but it's a much more realistic value proposition for most.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

Point me to how to put the sub that generated the reference line in your graph together. please.

Purchase one (or more) of these flat pack kits (wait for the SI 18" driver cut out option to come back in stock): http://www.diysoundgroup.com/subwoofer-flatpacks-2/sealed-subwoofer-flatpacks/4-sub-flat-pack.html - $145 shipped

Driver is here: http://www.istonline.ca/mach5_uxl_18.html - $530 shipped

Depending on what you're after (how many of these, etc.), if you are serious, start a thread in the DIY subforum and they can help you with amp options.

For sake of answering the question fully, grab an EP4000 and feed it 2000w (bridged 4ohm) for $300. Should be a perfect fit for that enclosure.

Balanced MiniDSP for $145: http://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-balanced-2x4

This gives you the ability to apply a LT for low end boost while giving you great PEQ abilities as well, even use REW to measure and auto-suggest filters for correction.

Get some glue, clamps and paint. Put the puzzle together like MK says. Bam, reference sub.
Edited by nfraso - 7/19/13 at 11:27am
post #291 of 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by its phillip View Post

No, I think you still don't get it. Yes, the KK is a nice sub. Whatever benefits it gets from corner loading will apply to other subwoofers. Yes, you get +6dB when you double up - not +6dB for each sub. And that applies to other subwoofers as well.

I would love to see that subwoofer tested as well.

Not all subs work well in corners, the KK's are designed to work there and still measure well there i.e distortion, big word I know, but extremely important! And yes 6db for each sub added surprising I know biggrin.gif

get It wink.gif
post #292 of 456
Oh, dear.
post #293 of 456
My daddy is stronger than your daddy! So there!
post #294 of 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Not all subs work well in corners, the KK's are designed to work there and still measure well there i.e distortion, big word I know, but extremely important! And yes 6db for each sub added surprising I know biggrin.gif

get It wink.gif

Read MKs post #279 again. These are basic principles that apply to your sub as well. You flat out will not get 6db per sub (except going from single to dual assuming they are co-located since this is a doubling of subs) as it takes a doubling of subs to achieve that and as MK says you would need EIGHT KK subs in that particular scenario.

Also, just like any sub/room/listening position scenario, experimentation is key to find the best spot and corner loading is certainly NOT going to be the best overall spot in every room with the KK or any other sub. Lots of variables and again experimentation is key.
Edited by Toe - 7/19/13 at 1:05pm
post #295 of 456
Found CEA-2010 measurements and adjusted to 2M for comparison. Nothing to see here, just one measly $799 Epik Empire (also dual sealed compact sub, though now extinct) bested the low end of this $3000 KKK thing while matching the top end. What a joke. rolleyes.gif

Kreisel Sound DXD-12012:

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz) average: 103.2 dB
20 Hz 98.7 dB
25 Hz 104.3 dB
31.5 Hz 106.7 dB L

Low bass (40-63 Hz) average: 116.5 dB
40 Hz 115.2 dB
50 Hz 117.1 dB
63 Hz 117.2 dB

--

Epik Empire:

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz) average: 105.9 dB
20 Hz 102.2 dB
25 Hz 105.8 dB
31.5 Hz 109.7 dB L

Low bass (40-63 Hz) average: 116.3 dB
40 Hz 113.2 dB
50 Hz 116.4 dB
63 Hz 119.2 dB

Sources: http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/blog/2013/07/17/review-kreisel-sound-dxd-12012-subwoofer?page=0,1, http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=50&mset=48

--

For an example of a similar design (dual sealed, compact) but actually being made from a reputable company, the PSA XS30 would handle the KKK thing with ease, and a pair for $2200 delivered would demolish it while putting money in your pocket:

PSA XS30 CEA-2010 Ratings (dual XS30s)

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 107.6dB (113.6dB)
Low bass (40-63Hz): 122.2dB (128.2dB)

On a smaller budget, even the XS15 for $749 delivered matches the Kreisel!

PSA XS15 CEA-2010 Ratings

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 104.1dB
Low bass (40-63Hz): 115.2dB

Just for the heck of it, here's their new sub (3x15" sealed) 27.5” x 31” x 23.5” for right around the Kreisel at $2799 delivered:

PSA Triax CEA-2010 Ratings

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 116.4dB
Low bass (40-63Hz): 127.1dB


Not even in the same league. You need four KKKs to get close. Game over. Go back to the 90's, Kreisel.
Edited by nfraso - 7/19/13 at 1:27pm
post #296 of 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

Found CEA-2010 measurements and adjusted to 2M for comparison. Nothing to see here, just one measly $799 Epik Empire (also dual sealed compact sub, though now extinct) bested the low end of this $3000 KKK thing while matching the top end. What a joke. rolleyes.gif

Kreisel Sound DXD-12012:

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz) average: 103.2 dB
20 Hz 98.7 dB
25 Hz 104.3 dB
31.5 Hz 106.7 dB L

Low bass (40-63 Hz) average: 116.5 dB
40 Hz 115.2 dB
50 Hz 117.1 dB
63 Hz 117.2 dB

--

Epik Empire:

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz) average: 105.9 dB
20 Hz 102.2 dB
25 Hz 105.8 dB
31.5 Hz 109.7 dB L

Low bass (40-63 Hz) average: 116.3 dB
40 Hz 113.2 dB
50 Hz 116.4 dB
63 Hz 119.2 dB

Sources: http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/blog/2013/07/17/review-kreisel-sound-dxd-12012-subwoofer?page=0,1, http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=50&mset=48

--

For an example of a similar design (dual sealed, compact) but actually being made from a reputable company, the PSA XS30 would handle the KKK thing with ease, and a pair for $2200 delivered would demolish it while putting money in your pocket:

PSA XS30 CEA-2010 Ratings (dual XS30s)

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 107.6dB (113.6dB)
Low bass (40-63Hz): 122.2dB (128.2dB)

On a smaller budget, even the XS15 for $749 delivered matches the Kreisel!

PSA XS15 CEA-2010 Ratings

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 104.1dB
Low bass (40-63Hz): 115.2dB

Just for the heck of it, here's their new sub (3x15" sealed) 27.5” x 31” x 23.5” for right around the Kreisel at $2799 delivered:

PSA Triax CEA-2010 Ratings

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 116.4dB
Low bass (40-63Hz): 127.1dB


Not even in the same league. You need four KKKs to get close. Game over. Go back to the 90's, Kreisel.

For me its not so much the output that bothers me its the price. But for a lot of us pretty much any retail sub will have that problem.

I would be interested though if KK started doing speakers. I've always wanted to hear one his designs.
post #297 of 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Read MKs post #279 again. These are basic principles that apply to your sub as well. You flat out will not get 6db per sub (except going from single to dual assuming they are co-located since this is a doubling of subs) as it takes a doubling of subs to achieve that and as MK says you would need EIGHT KK subs in that particular scenario.

Also, just like any sub/room/listening position scenario, experimentation is key to find the best spot and corner loading is certainly NOT going to be the best overall spot in every room with the KK or any other sub. Lots of variables and again experimentation is key.

It's designed to be collocated in a corner, stacked as a subwoofer system , and yes in the corner for the KK's,agreed not all subs will sound best in the corner but point is this one will, do your do diligence and research the sub and until you hear it for yourself, I'm wasting my time wink.gif
post #298 of 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

Found CEA-2010 measurements and adjusted to 2M for comparison. Nothing to see here, just one measly $799 Epik Empire (also dual sealed compact sub, though now extinct) bested the low end of this $3000 KKK thing while matching the top end. What a joke. rolleyes.gif

Kreisel Sound DXD-12012:

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz) average: 103.2 dB
20 Hz 98.7 dB
25 Hz 104.3 dB
31.5 Hz 106.7 dB L

Low bass (40-63 Hz) average: 116.5 dB
40 Hz 115.2 dB
50 Hz 117.1 dB
63 Hz 117.2 dB

--

Epik Empire:

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz) average: 105.9 dB
20 Hz 102.2 dB
25 Hz 105.8 dB
31.5 Hz 109.7 dB L

Low bass (40-63 Hz) average: 116.3 dB
40 Hz 113.2 dB
50 Hz 116.4 dB
63 Hz 119.2 dB

Sources: http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/blog/2013/07/17/review-kreisel-sound-dxd-12012-subwoofer?page=0,1, http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=50&mset=48

--

For an example of a similar design (dual sealed, compact) but actually being made from a reputable company, the PSA XS30 would handle the KKK thing with ease, and a pair for $2200 delivered would demolish it while putting money in your pocket:

PSA XS30 CEA-2010 Ratings (dual XS30s)

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 107.6dB (113.6dB)
Low bass (40-63Hz): 122.2dB (128.2dB)

On a smaller budget, even the XS15 for $749 delivered matches the Kreisel!

PSA XS15 CEA-2010 Ratings

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 104.1dB
Low bass (40-63Hz): 115.2dB

Just for the heck of it, here's their new sub (3x15" sealed) 27.5” x 31” x 23.5” for right around the Kreisel at $2799 delivered:

PSA Triax CEA-2010 Ratings

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 116.4dB
Low bass (40-63Hz): 127.1dB


Not even in the same league. You need four KKKs to get close. Game over. Go back to the 90's, Kreisel.

Ahh! I get now rolleyes.gif you got something personal against Ken, the mans work speaks for itself and I'm sure glad he's back building subs!

nice chatting smile.gif
post #299 of 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

For me its not so much the output that bothers me its the price. But for a lot of us pretty much any retail sub will have that problem.

I would be interested though if KK started doing speakers. I've always wanted to hear one his designs.

He's building speakers again as well. and if not mistaken they've began shipping.
post #300 of 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

It's designed to be collocated in a corner, stacked as a subwoofer system , and yes in the corner for the KK's,agreed not all subs will sound best in the corner but point is this one will, do your do diligence and research the sub and until you hear it for yourself, I'm wasting my time wink.gif

It depends on the room though Audiofan and every room is different. Just because it is designed to work best in a corner does not mean a corner will be the best spot since you simply don't know until you experiment and do a FR check at the LP in YOUR room.

Also, co-locating will still require doubling of the subs for every 6db of gain.
Edited by Toe - 7/19/13 at 3:48pm
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › Is the Seaton SubMersive HP the Benchmark Sub?