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Is the Seaton SubMersive HP the Benchmark Sub? - Page 15

post #421 of 455
This thread makes me have so much more respect for SVS(which I revere), as if that is possible.eek.gif
post #422 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Hi Guys,

I'll probably come back and comment on a few things later, but I didn't even catch up with all the posts in this thread until Monday morning. A couple quick comments before I get back to making sure we get a handful of SubMersives shipped today.

There's been a lot of speculation and poor reading comprehension related to my own and Josh Ricci's posts here. I think most skipped the part of Ricci's post where he clarified this isn't yet a paying job:
I have been encouraging Josh to make it a sustainable effort as an independent measurement service, preferably with equal parts community and manufacturer sponsorship. When I took a glance at the virtual hat-passing for Ricci to measure the VTF-15 I was rather disappointed that no one bothered to ask what might be reasonable to donate for his time and expertise. What would those of you with a specialized skill need to be paid to give up 2 days of your weekend or vacation time? How much if it was to supplant your full time job? At this point in time Josh will likely come in to humbly say such compensation isn't needed, but if many of you want to see measurements of many more subwoofers, realize any number of much more important life priorities than subwoofer testing can quickly make this final list like Illka's became once he graduated and needed a real job.

Apparently I need to clarify again that I've never said we don't "want" more customers and orders. I have acknowledged that some of the things we have done and not done yet will preclude some potential customers from purchasing, and I'm OK with and understand it completely. I had clarified a few times that I want the website and some other details up before we waste the exposure a review would bring, particularly the exposure to those not posting in this thread who have never heard of Seaton Sound or a SubMersive before. In the past I also wasn't terribly excited about having to answer a plethora of questions explaining measurements which many look at too narrowly while my own bandwidth is already stretched. To those who don't think such things would create all that much exposure or think we are concerned with increased demand, the past week happened to be one of our busiest since the holiday season, and all but special finish orders are shipping out in a day or two... Please keep posting. wink.gif

I have exchanged a few messages and ideas with Josh and think we have an idea suitably interesting for him and readers to make it worth his time and effort.

To be fair Josh Ricci PM'd me offering to test the VTF-15 for free, hince why I started the thread. If he feels a need to be paid I can work that into the donations. Nobody here especially myself expects him to continue testing more subs for free. I am well aware time = money, trust me.
post #423 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

To be fair to Josh, this isn't necessarily an easy decision as it walks a line of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" as once money is taken, expectations need to be managed more carefully.
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

To be fair Josh Ricci PM'd me offering to test the VTF-15 for free, hince why I started the thread. If he feels a need to be paid I can work that into the donations. Nobody here especially myself expects him to continue testing more subs for free. I am well aware time = money, trust me.

Maybe it would be worth it to kickstart sub testing campaigns. To goal would be an acceptable revenue for Josh (or any other trusted tester really). The test wouldn't be performed until the goal is reached. Any excess money can be dealt with with various stretch goals.
post #424 of 455
This thread and the discussion regarding the weight out on CEA-2010 max output numbers as far as how "good" a sub is got me thinking.

Aren't the max output numbers kind of like the top speed of a car? In that, if you compare a Mustang to a Camaro and decide that one is better tha the other because one can hit 210mph and the other only 198, aren't you missing out on many other factors? (Those numbers are totally made up, btw.). For most drivers who will never exceed maybe 100-110 mph, the max speed is totally useless as a measure of comparison.

Now, for an enthusiast like many here, then maybe max speed or max output is a critical factor. But for most people that buy a sub, even if they listen "loud" that will not approach the max limits of almost any of these excellent subs, so for them, I would think clean sound, build quality, warranty etc would be more important than max output. So, when making a recommendation to a thread asking for sub advice, I would think that the max output numbers should not be consideredthe end all and be all as far as which sub to recommend.
post #425 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewHTbuyer View Post

This thread and the discussion regarding the weight out on CEA-2010 max output numbers as far as how "good" a sub is got me thinking.

Aren't the max output numbers kind of like the top speed of a car? In that, if you compare a Mustang to a Camaro and decide that one is better tha the other because one can hit 210mph and the other only 198, aren't you missing out on many other factors? (Those numbers are totally made up, btw.). For most drivers who will never exceed maybe 100-110 mph, the max speed is totally useless as a measure of comparison.

Now, for an enthusiast like many here, then maybe max speed or max output is a critical factor. But for most people that buy a sub, even if they listen "loud" that will not approach the max limits of almost any of these excellent subs, so for them, I would think clean sound, build quality, warranty etc would be more important than max output. So, when making a recommendation to a thread asking for sub advice, I would think that the max output numbers should not be consideredthe end all and be all as far as which sub to recommend.

No look at data-bass there is alot more info there than just peak numbers. Josh does max burst, average, and takes the time to write a nice review... not to mention he posts graphs as well.
post #426 of 455
I wasn't trying to imply data-bass only listed max output or that many of the expert enthusiasts around here don't take into account more than that. It just seems that on many threads someone will post something like "I recommend sub A over B b/c it can hit 115 dB vs. 112 dB at 25 Hz" when the OP is looking for a basic family room setup. Not trying to stir the pot here. Just kinda thinking out loud.
post #427 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewHTbuyer View Post

I wasn't trying to imply data-bass only listed max output or that many of the expert enthusiasts around here don't take into account more than that. It just seems that on many threads someone will post something like "I recommend sub A over B b/c it can hit 115 dB vs. 112 dB at 25 Hz" when the OP is looking for a basic family room setup. Not trying to stir the pot here. Just kinda thinking out loud.

I think the majority of folks that join avs and post in here are bassheads or similar to what a gearhead is in the car world. most folks here are lookin for a bit more than the traditional family room setup. So yes 3db is a significant difference in that aspect.
post #428 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

So yes 3db is a significant difference in that aspect.

Only if on the back end.

What some don't include in conversations of this type is that 20Hz is 20Hz whether at 85dB, 95dB or 105dB.

At what level do folks listen to their systems when playing it loud? In theaters, personal research has shown that pretty much, management is keeping to a limit of <96dB.

Just saying, yes, 3dB on the back end can be considered "a significant difference" as it takes twice as much power to reproduce that output difference but a 3dB gain to a human's hearing is barely noticeable.
post #429 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Only if on the back end.

What some don't include in conversations of this type is that 20Hz is 20Hz whether at 85dB, 95dB or 105dB.

At what level do folks listen to their systems when playing it loud? In theaters, personal research has shown that pretty much, management is keeping to a limit of <96dB.

Just saying, yes, 3dB on the back end can be considered "a significant difference" as it takes twice as much power to reproduce that output difference but a 3dB gain to a human's hearing is barely noticeable.

I believe most folks consider those numbers in correlation to reference on this forum. is that not what the term reference is for?
post #430 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I believe most folks consider those numbers in correlation to reference on this forum. is that not what the term reference is for?

The only reference to "reference" in the quote I responded to was the mention of 115dB and even then my comment still applies, the 3dB mentioned applies to the back end where most don't listen so any mention of 3dB of which would only be a consideration of "peak" performant and that 3dB is barely noticeable.....these two points need to be mentioned in conversations of this type.

Our subwoofer system is a puny little system that will push 108dB and even with the addition of a fourth subwoofer will only do 111dB which falls short of reference. Nothing wrong with a reference capable system, and one day, when our 401(k) ship comes in, I will step up to a reference capable system but in truth, it will only be to say I have a reference capable system so anybody who comes over to listen to our subwoofer system, won't feel compelled to feel sorry for us.

"Those poor, poor, pitiful people. At 20Hz, their subwoofer system is only capable of 108dB."

...tongue.gif

I'm only pointing out that any gain of 3dB is unarguably, barely noticeable and chances are real good, normal listening conditions prevailing, I doubt many if any will notice the addition of an additional three or six dB because Home Theater sound tracks are mastered to the moment of the effect and is not intended to be a continuous rating such as is the case of musicians and music being reproduced.

Reference is a speaker system capable of 105dB and a subwoofer system, for headroom purposes, that's capable of 115dB and realistically speaking, the measured sound volume is not expected to be played continuously at these volumes. Hence the reference to personal research, links I have posted in the past, show meta studies of many action based, movie theater playback rarely in the time of playback equals or exceeds 96dB. That being the case, here's a countering link so one can read a countering opinion and draw their own conclusions. I'm not commenting to create controversy.

Please keep in mind, at no time am I discouraging anybody from acquiring a reference level capable subwoofer system or disparaging your comment. The only time our system will be played at max capability is when the wife is out of the house and even then I'm accused of trying to upset the neighbors on either side of us.

Quote:
most folks here are lookin for a bit more than the traditional family room setup.

And yes, I do agree with your above comment, this being a subwoofer forum comprising of folks who are interested it playing it loud or at least achieving the acquisition of a subwoofer system that easily qualifies as "MUCH" better "than the traditional family room setup."

The sole focus of my comment was that of 3dB being considered significant and lending a bit of perspective to the comment. Nothing more.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 7/26/13 at 6:05am
post #431 of 455
Gotta STRONGLY disagree with that. 3 db is definitely noticeable. That's like doubling up on power or doubling up on drivers. I know if I crank my master volume up 3 db there's no question no doubt something's changed! lol
post #432 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

Gotta STRONGLY disagree with that. 3 db is definitely noticeable. That's like doubling up on power or doubling up on drivers. I know if I crank my master volume up 3 db there's no question no doubt something's changed! lol

I'm simply commenting on tests that have been conducted and reviewed. 3dB increase in power, the output is barely noticeable. As we all know, it takes an increase of 10dB to acceptably double the intensity of the perceived sound which is greater than eight times the amplification of the base sound level.

Again, my comment references that this add of three, six, nine or ten dB is on the backend of the sound reproduction effort. The first hundred dB is the easy stuff. The first hundred dB at 20Hz, becomes a bit more challenging for consumer grade (cheap) subwoofers. It's the 20Hz above a hundred dB where the amplifying effort becomes so important.
post #433 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

Gotta STRONGLY disagree with that. 3 db is definitely noticeable. That's like doubling up on power or doubling up on drivers. I know if I crank my master volume up 3 db there's no question no doubt something's changed! lol
I agree. I believe 3 db to be more of a situation where adding it may make little to no difference at first. When someone has it, gets used to having it, and then its it's taken away Its missed. Sometimes its a case of don't know what you got till its gone,
Everyones opinion is just as valid as the others so speaking only for myself I want my 3 dbs.
Chris
post #434 of 455
I agree as well, plus 3 dBs is not much at -20 dBs on the volume because you go from .25 watts to .5 watts. When you are at a louder volume you notice, especially when you use up the headroom.

Btw these are just examples and not true numbers.
post #435 of 455
There's also a massive difference between sitting at the ragged edge of your system's playback capablities and having 3dB headroom to spare that you aren't actually "using". Compression and distortion vs clean output is just as or more audible and important than 3dB volume increase. wink.gif
post #436 of 455
You have to consider that (among many other variables) soundtracks are dynamic source with bandwidth to far below the 10 Hz tested cut off.

Commercial subwoofers have limiters that change the FR as demand increases. In most cases, the F3 changes radically and this is definitely audible. In fact, this phenomenon is the biggest difference in subjective comments when people G2G to listen and eval differences in subwoofers. Comments like: "With music, they sounded almost identical but, with movies 'X' sub sounded way different than 'Y' sub" are common and mostly go .

The P'digm is no exception and neither is the SM. You could look at the CEA Max Burst graph comparo and reason that the P'Digm is, on average, 'only' -3dB difference from the DIY UXL-18 sub:



But, when you look at the prog sweeps, you see the P'Digms FR radically changes whereas the UXL sub (which has no "idiot proof" circuitry), stays virtually the same at any playback level.





The limiters on the P'Digm affect a -10dB difference at 20 Hz (compression) from lowest to highest playback level with a swept sine wave input. That means that, if you prefer the Sub-2s as-shipped FR, then you should ignore the test results maximum output results and look at the numbers that reflect the highest output before the FR begins to change. The same will be the case for the UXL DIY sub if you decide to flatten the response with boosting EQ, which is why DIYers use multiples and big amps. It's just smart planning and execution and the "basshead" "Bass maniac" monikers come from those who just don't get it. There's nothing maniacal in building a system that will reach your desired playback level to single digits while maintaining the desired FR, it just takes what it takes to get there and that's not likely to happen without data.

Problem is, most people just look at the maximum numbers and not much else.

You can buy multiples of whatever sub to alleviate the problem (and most other problems that show up in test results) as many have, although they usually do so "to smooth the FR", but it's still a better planning option to be able to include the actual data when narrowing your decision and to better predict the "SQ" of your system.

Opinions are great but, in this discussion they're largely irrelevant. The numbers should be there for those who are interested and for those who aren't they can just skip the numbers and offer their reasons for doing so.
post #437 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Opinions are great but, in this discussion they're largely irrelevant. The numbers should be there for those who are interested and for those who aren't they can just skip the numbers and offer their reasons for doing so.

Is that a dagger I see coming straight at my heart? tongue.gif

Fact. The last three dB of SPL, come on the back end, not the front end and unless one is taking benefit of that last 3dB of headroom, in the final analysis, it's all moot.

(harmonic distortion is considered in my above as no, my above is not a permission slip for factors such as harmonic distortion to be taken out of the equation of consideration)

Also, one must include a budget or price comparison regarding discussions of this type as trying to discuss a $800.00 subwoofer in the same sentence as a $6,000.00 subwoofer, in my opinion, is the height of intellectual dishonesty

Once again, let loose the daggers to fly in the direction of my vulnerable heart.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 7/26/13 at 12:21pm
post #438 of 455
Good thing Jodi Arias doesn't post here.
post #439 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Is that a dagger I see coming straight at my heart? tongue.gif

Fact. The last three dB of SPL, come on the back end, not the front end and unless one is taking benefit of that last 3dB of headroom, in the final analysis, it's all moot.

(harmonic distortion is considered in my above as no, my above is not a permission slip for factors such as harmonic distortion to be taken out of the equation of consideration)

Also, one must include a budget or price comparison regarding discussions of this type as trying to discuss a $800.00 subwoofer in the same sentence as a $6,000.00 subwoofer, in my opinion, is the height of intellectual dishonesty

Once again, let loose the daggers to fly in the direction of my vulnerable heart.

-

Posting edicts about subwoofers with one's heart is done so at one's own risk. tongue.gif

You should probably read the post before commenting. The P'Digm results clearly show that the output @ 20 Hz is capped before the last 10dB of output is reached.

Price is irrelevant. One man's $800 is another man's $6000. If you prefer to rate a subwoofer by the $-per-dB method, start your thread and opine to your hearts content.
post #440 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Posting edicts about subwoofers with one's heart is done so at one's own risk. tongue.gif

(Agreed, doing so is a risky venture)

No edicts, just the facts.

Quote:
You should probably read the post before commenting. The P'Digm results clearly show that the output @ 20 Hz is capped before the last 10dB of output is reached.

I quoted forward what it was I was responding to and did my best to make clear the limited nature of my comments.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 7/26/13 at 3:12pm
post #441 of 455
the submersive is subject to the same laws of physics as every other sealed subwoofer.

the equation for displacement limited spl in 2pi space is empirical:

spl = 94.3 + 20*LOG(excursion/500) + 40*LOG(frequency) + 40*LOG(diameter/1000) + 6 dB

where,
excursion is in mm
frequency is in hz
diameter is in mm (effective piston diameter of driver)

without knowing the actual *useable* excursion, a look at the surround is suggestive of something around 18mm +/-.

and, add another 6db for the second woofer of course.

therefore, long term average results are likely around:

20.0hz ~110db
31.5hz ~118db
40.0hz ~122db

subtract 6db for comparison with 2 meter measurements at data-bass.com long term averages. burst testing would likely give higher results, but isn't as representative imho.
post #442 of 455
"and, add another 6db for the second woofer of course."

each new driver add only +3db, so how many Wats (Volts) is geting first driver and how many Wats (Volts) is geting second driver to get another +3 db?
post #443 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZivkoF View Post

"and, add another 6db for the second woofer of course."

each new driver add only +3db, so how many Wats (Volts) is geting first driver and how many Wats (Volts) is geting second driver to get another +3 db?

I saw that, but just attributed it to LTD miss posting his thoughts knowing he is quite familiar with the subject.
post #444 of 455
a second driver increases efficiency/sensitivity by +3db.

a second driver driven to full excursion will add +6db.

the missing +3db is from the power required to drive the second driver to its full excursion,
which is of course, double the power of driving one driver to its full excursion.
post #445 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

a second driver increases efficiency/sensitivity by +3db.

a second driver driven to full excursion will add +6db.

the missing +3db is from the power required to drive the second driver to its full excursion,
which is of course, double the power of driving one driver to its full excursion.


I know this is probably a stupid question but I can't do the math. I have seen people reference that 2 15" drivers have the same surface area of a 21" driver. Instead of the assumption adding 3 or 6 db for the second driver, would it be accurate to put in a 21" driver into the formula? Does the math come out different?
post #446 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by njandy View Post

I know this is probably a stupid question but I can't do the math. I have seen people reference that 2 15" drivers have the same surface area of a 21" driver. Instead of the assumption adding 3 or 6 db for the second driver, would it be accurate to put in a 21" driver into the formula?
Surface area alone says little to nothing. Output is limited by the total system cone displacement, T/S spec Vd. As for the facts of why two identical drivers give 6dB more than one, the simple answer is that doubling driver count doubles displacement. Doubling displacement while maintaining the same voltage swing gives a 6dB increase.
post #447 of 455
Thread Starter 
Here she is, love it so far, after one day of use...black maple HP Plus. I'll pick up the slave down the road.


post #448 of 455
Congrats, shes beautiful, i would love to hear a Submersive HP one day.
post #449 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshjp View Post

Congrats, shes beautiful, i would love to hear a Submersive HP one day.

If you are in the Olympia, WA area give me a Pm and you can hear 4 of them.
post #450 of 455
Hi Submersive users,

May i know is this beast using LFE connectivity? If not it uses what connectivity? any link that you guys can show me the wires?

Am using SC-LX86 amp... As im pretty new to this sub...so just wanna make sure on the wires connectivity. Tks a mil!
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