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DIY Sub for around $2k? - Page 2

post #31 of 158
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

Didn't realize you wanted plate amps. It would be tough to find beefy enough plate amps, IMO.

I can get around the plate amps, espcially now that i see the huge price difference
post #32 of 158
Honestly - a LMSR12 12" TC-Sounds is only $369 before discount.

Put it in a 3.0 cubic foot enclosure tuned @13hz and apply a small 3db boost at 20hz and that sucker is mostly flat to 13hz in a relatively small box.



Based on your requirement for low end extension and a small box that is a winner IMO.

Personally I would build a bigger box with a 15" that does near 120db at 20hz instead but you'll give up your 13hz if that is your thing.
post #33 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by simp1yamazn View Post

I can get around the plate amps, espcially now that i see the huge price difference

Cool.

So the UXL-18's cost around $530 each, and the iNuke6K is $499. You can do a simple fan swap if the fans are too loud for you. Or you can always go with another quality pro amp.
post #34 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Honestly - a LMSR12 12" TC-Sounds is only $369 before discount.

Put it in a 3.0 cubic foot enclosure tuned @13hz and apply a small 3db boost at 20hz and that sucker is mostly flat to 13hz in a relatively small box.



Based on your requirement for low end extension and a small box that is a winner IMO.

Personally I would build a bigger box with a 15" that does near 120db at 20hz instead but you'll give up your 13hz if that is your thing.

Ooh, size is a factor here? My reading comprehension is terrible.

If that's the case the dual UXL-18's may not be the best way to go. Ha. These would be pretty beefy. Small for an 18" sub enclosure, but bigger than you may want.
post #35 of 158
Thread Starter 
haha, less is more when it comes to enclosure sizes, well for the wife at least.
post #36 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

Cool.

So the UXL-18's cost around $530 each, and the iNuke6K is $499. You can do a simple fan swap if the fans are too loud for you. Or you can always go with another quality pro amp.

I don't think the UXL-18 gets him the same output at 13hz as the LMSR-12" at a much lower $369 before discount at PE. That driver works better in a bigger box and has a much flatter response with good low end extention so overall I'd prefer it for those reasons personally- but OP wanted a small box, and he wanted really low extension. He said he did not care about max SPL.

In a small box the UXL gives up some to the smaller cheaper 12" I think. But I am still noob so I might be wrong.
post #37 of 158
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Honestly - a LMSR12 12" TC-Sounds is only $369 before discount.

Put it in a 3.0 cubic foot enclosure tuned @13hz and apply a small 3db boost at 20hz and that sucker is mostly flat to 13hz in a relatively small box.



Based on your requirement for low end extension and a small box that is a winner IMO.

Personally I would build a bigger box with a 15" that does near 120db at 20hz instead but you'll give up your 13hz if that is your thing.

that FR graph is almost exactly what i'm looking for. with the DSP in the sub plus mult eq XT and sub EQ I should be able to flatten it out a little more still. what software did you use to calculate that (i assume it gave measurements for the tuning port?)? any chance it's available to a mac?
post #38 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by simp1yamazn View Post

haha, less is more when it comes to enclosure sizes, well for the wife at least.

Yup. I got that early. That's why the 12" with only 3.0 box makes sense for you. You could finish it up really nice with a piano black high gloss and make it look awesome too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

Ooh, size is a factor here? My reading comprehension is terrible.

If that's the case the dual UXL-18's may not be the best way to go. Ha. These would be pretty beefy. Small for an 18" sub enclosure, but bigger than you may want.

Yup. His wife is not accepting of a big box. I see you noticed this after my post above ^

Ninja edit tongue.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by simp1yamazn View Post

that FR graph is almost exactly what i'm looking for. with the DSP in the sub plus mult eq XT and sub EQ I should be able to flatten it out a little more still. what software did you use to calculate that (i assume it gave measurements for the tuning port?)? any chance it's available to a mac?

I used WinISD Pro

http://www.linearteam.dk/default.aspx?pageid=winisdpro

I added the extra drivers specs I downloaded from another site. As it is from that link it's missing some newer drivers but they are available and not hard to add in.

You have some choices to port tuning. You can choose -3db or -6db extended bass shelf and basically it will tune to get you as low as possible and remain within -3db or -6db of flat. That's usually a good way to start out I think.
Honestly this program was just given to me last week in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1479639/need-help-desining-subwoofer-enclosure-for-2-x-15-subs/0_100

I found some 13 year old subwoofers in my dads garage I bought back when I lived at home. (I bought my house in 2001) I wanted to build a box and some of the guys have been pretty helpful. I figured I would try to return the favor.

But I am still noob. I think I am a quick learner. Usually I am with this stuff anyways. But I could be way off. I keep waiting for a veteran to chime in and tell me I am an idiot tongue.gif
post #39 of 158
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Yup. I got that early. That's why the 12" with only 3.0 box makes sense for you. You could finish it up really nice with a piano black high gloss and make it look awesome too.

Looks like the way to go for me right now. theonly part of this that I'm hesitant on is driver selection. I know that the FR graphs give a lot of information, but how do you judge things like musicality? or tightness? when looking at a driver on its own
post #40 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by simp1yamazn View Post

that FR graph is almost exactly what i'm looking for. with the DSP in the sub plus mult eq XT and sub EQ I should be able to flatten it out a little more still. what software did you use to calculate that (i assume it gave measurements for the tuning port?)? any chance it's available to a mac?

And yes about the flat response. I just boosted 3db at one frequency- but if you wanted to get serious you could get this sucker flat to 12hz I think. Not bad for the price IMO. DIY is always a cheaper option dollar for dollar, and it's a fun hobby. If you don't mind spending the money and you want something really nice without much fuss that is guaranteed to work as expected you can buy for twice the cost.

Usually a $2000 sub won't really use parts that cost much more than parts you buy yourself for half the price. That sub you like does use some proprietary tech and has a nice amp on it for a plate amp, but hardly impressive compared to what you can get for the same money in a stand alone amp. You can get all those features and more power for less in a real amp. You just need to figure how to hide it from wifey.
post #41 of 158
Firstly - what your mains are producing when you run a 22Hz signal into them is entirely distortion. With a very powerful low distortion sub at 22Hz you will hear next to nothing, but will feel it. The -ve 3dB spec of 29Hz on on the Montis like for most commercial speakers is optimistic at best.

Given your $2k budget and requirements of SQ and depth in a smallish pacakge but not a bucket-load of shear output, a couple of DIY sealed Rythmik 15s (DS1510 with 600w plate amps) would be the ticket. This will still give you a lot of output but not heaps by some of the nutter standards one finds on this forum. The Rythmiks come with silent plate amps and its a pretty fool-proof way to go. If you want to go a bit more DIY then I would say get a pair of LMS-R 15s, a CV-5000 and a balanced MiniDSP. Either option needs a couple of sealed 3cuft boxes (do separate boxes - not dual opposed), but the LMS-Rs and CV5000 will need more tuning and you will need to change the fans on the amp to something quieter but that should be pretty easy.

My 2c
post #42 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by simp1yamazn View Post

Looks like the way to go for me right now. theonly part of this that I'm hesitant on is driver selection. I know that the FR graphs give a lot of information, but how do you judge things like musicality? or tightness? when looking at a driver on its own

That TC-Sounds 12" driver I used for $369 is not a crappy driver. It's high end, and probably better than anything your going to get in a MFG made subwoofer under $2000. That's what is nice about DIY.
You'll notice that driver I used is one of the most expensive drivers Parts Express carries too. You can choose a cheaper drive around $200 for a 12" that would give you 90%-95% of the performance for a good drop down in price. I actually found it by sorting by highest price tongue.gif

$369 for a DIY 12" speaker is by no means a good deal, or cheap. I wasn't worrying about that based on your budget of $2000 because you'll never spend that even with a really nice high end amp and going all out on the enclosure. I'm guessing you won't break $1000.

There is just no way you can buy a subwoofer for $1000 that would compete with a DIY subwoofer for the same price. I've yet to see it. The beautiful thing about DIY is you get what you want. You can go flat to 12hz if you want. You can go really loud to 130db if you want. It's all up to you. Some drivers work well in big boxes, others in small boxes. Some go loud, Some go low- some work well ported, some work well sealed. Sky is really the limit.

Based on you not needing maximum SPL and you wanting a small box and really low frequency extension I just thought that 12" in a 3.0 cubic foot box would work well. You could easily enlarge the box and increase the tune frequency to say 20hz and make a totally different type of subwoofer (louder) if you really wanted. Just seemed that is not what you want. I doubt that $2000 sub is making the same SPL at 12hz as that one I modeled. 12hz is no joke for any subwoofer at any price. That sub I think would be well over 100db @ 12hz eek.gif Impressive for a small 12" sub.
post #43 of 158
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avgass View Post

Firstly - what your mains are producing when you run a 22Hz signal into them is entirely distortion. With a very powerful low distortion sub at 22Hz you will hear next to nothing, but will feel it. The -ve 3dB spec of 29Hz on on the Montis like for most commercial speakers is optimistic at best.

Never said I heard it. mostly feel pressure in the chest and an odd "tugging" sensation in my ears when turned up. stereophile measured them well into the 20's
post #44 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by simp1yamazn View Post

Never said I heard it. mostly feel pressure in the chest and an odd "tugging" sensation in my ears when turned up. stereophile measured them well into the 20's

They don't do 105db at 12hz wink.gif
post #45 of 158
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

They don't do 105db at 12hz wink.gif

haha, true. i need to wait until I can build my new sub(s) for that biggrin.gif

all i need to do now is choose the amp. any suggests for ones to look at other than the inukes?
post #46 of 158
"I don't think the UXL-18 gets him the
same output at 13hz as the LMSR-12..."

eek.gif was there a pole shift or something that i missed?
post #47 of 158
Impressive set of measurements for a pair of floorstanders! It is acknowledged that the low end was assisted by a 30Hz room-mode though and there are no distortion measurements there. 22Hz is tough to reproduce for tens. I think you will love the impact a couple of a pair of decent subs has on your listening experience.
post #48 of 158
Thread Starter 
True, and I'm sure that I get at least some benefit from room gain. I am extraordinarily excited to get started but am also one to over plan for DIY projects. Both sides of my brain at odds with each other!
post #49 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"I don't think the UXL-18 gets him the
same output at 13hz as the LMSR-12..."

eek.gif was there a pole shift or something that i missed?


His requirement for a small box was the issue, not the ability of the 18" to hit low bass frequencies.
post #50 of 158
:-)

just a heads up...

tuning a 3 cubic foot enclosure that low is typically
not done because the port has to be long and large.

that causes two problems. first, the size of the
enclosure becomes almost as much port as enclosure.
second, the resonant frequency of the port gets pushed
down into the pass band.
post #51 of 158
op, before your head explodes, one option
would be to go with a simple 3.5+/- cubic foot
sealed enclosure and the dayton rss460ho 18" driver
powered by the sa1000 amplifier.

driver:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-472

amp (its on special right now):
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-811

some nice things about this amp are auto turn on, no fans,
defeatable high pass filter(!), one band parametric eq, bass boost,
and it looks half decent.

the driver has been tested at data-bass.com if you want
to see how it performed. usable xmax is around 20mm and power
handling in a sealed enclosure of 1000 watts is fine.

with some bass boost and eq that comes with the amp, it should give you
nice deep extension down past 20hz.
post #52 of 158
flat pack kit if you don't want to cut wood: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-7079
post #53 of 158
I dont know, 3 ft3 13hz box, using a amp that cant filter below 20hz? How is he going to port it without the port being something like 6' long, and what if he needs to set a HPF below the tuning point?

I think a miniDSP is mandatory for this

http://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-2x4

You can pair that with the regular NU6000, so it will basically cost the same, or any other amp.

With that much power, and an EQ that nice, you could basically shape the response however you want. Just for a crazy idea, you could put 4 of these drivers in a single 4 ft3 box sealed box, one driver on each side, wired series/parallel for a 4 ohm load. A 22 x 22 x 18.5" box will get you the volume.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-469

Apply the below filters with the mini DSP (note the middle is - )


That would be the max output from the boosted response from a single channel of the NU6000, the system would still be capable of 120+ db above 30 hz. You could still build two of these quad woofer subs powered and EQ'd by the NU6000/miniDSP combo for $2k.
post #54 of 158
It's so cool.
post #55 of 158
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

I dont know, 3 ft3 13hz box, using a amp that cant filter below 20hz? How is he going to port it without the port being something like 6' long, and what if he needs to set a HPF below the tuning point?

I think a miniDSP is mandatory for this

http://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-2x4

You can pair that with the regular NU6000, so it will basically cost the same, or any other amp.

With that much power, and an EQ that nice, you could basically shape the response however you want. Just for a crazy idea, you could put 4 of these drivers in a single 4 ft3 box sealed box, one driver on each side, wired series/parallel for a 4 ohm load. A 22 x 22 x 18.5" box will get you the volume.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-469

Apply the below filters with the mini DSP (note the middle is - )


That would be the max output from the boosted response from a single channel of the NU6000, the system would still be capable of 120+ db above 30 hz. You could still build two of these quad woofer subs powered and EQ'd by the NU6000/miniDSP combo for $2k.

speaking of multi-driver designs, what am I really getting if I do a dual or quad driver design? is it just for total output or will it help to smooth out response before the DSP is dialed in?
post #56 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by simp1yamazn View Post

speaking of multi-driver designs, what am I really getting if I do a dual or quad driver design? is it just for total output or will it help to smooth out response before the DSP is dialed in?
Both really, but the real benefit is a smoother response (even better if you can experiment with different placement options).
post #57 of 158
Thread Starter 
would someone with the design software be kind enough to model using 2 of these 18" dayton drivers here using a 3.5/4 cubic foot enclosure?
post #58 of 158
I'm currently running a single sealed Dayton 18" HO with a Crown XLS1000. It's very impressive. In my ~2500cu ft room I'm able to reach pretty low frequencies at usable levels. These drivers are beastly.

Doing dual Dayton 18"s in seperate 4 cu ft enclosures would be even better, as you're gaining the additional output but also helping your room response. Not sure how big your room is, but this setup should be able to pressurize the room nicely. If ever you want more bass, just add two more! Ha.

And to be honest, a 4 cu ft enclosure isn't that big.
post #59 of 158
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

I'm currently running a single sealed Dayton 18" HO with a Crown XLS1000. It's very impressive. In my ~2500cu ft room I'm able to reach pretty low frequencies at usable levels. These drivers are beastly.

Doing dual Dayton 18"s in seperate 4 cu ft enclosures would be even better, as you're gaining the additional output but also helping your room response. Not sure how big your room is, but this setup should be able to pressurize the room nicely. If ever you want more bass, just add two more! Ha.

And to be honest, a 4 cu ft enclosure isn't that big.

Any chance you'd have any measurements or graphs with your in room response? I'm guessing I have to fill about 3500 cubic feet because the living room leads to other rooms.

Problem I keep butting up again is WAF which is why if there is any improvement to opposed drivers in a single cabinet it's worth considering.
post #60 of 158
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

I'm currently running a single sealed Dayton 18" HO with a Crown XLS1000. It's very impressive. In my ~2500cu ft room I'm able to reach pretty low frequencies at usable levels. These drivers are beastly.

how large of an enclosure are you using?
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