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Looking to buy a big TV (around 60"), need some advice

post #1 of 12
Thread Starter 
Hello everyone,

I'm new here and I was looking for some advice. First of all here's some useful info you probably need in order to give me the right kind of advice:

I currently own
A 6-7 year old Philips 32PF9531 (32", HD ready) LCD screen and it has served me surprisingly well. I've had no noticeable input lag and the pixel plus 2 engine really makes a big difference with everything I do (games, movies, TV or using it as a second screen for my PC). The biggest downsides are; too small, dark scenes (games and movies) are not always easy to see, 1080i, Computer only displays in 4:3.

Budget
The absolute maximum I'm willing to spend on a new TV is €4000. That's a large amount of money though, somewhere around €3000 would be ideal to be honest.

Viewing distance / Size
The viewing distance is about 3 metres (around 10 feet) and even though 55" is big acording to my girlfriend, I'd much rather go 65" and she's fine with that (thankfully).

Room conditions
The walls behind and opposite of the TV are solid but there's lots of light coming in from the windows on the side of the TV. That side of the house is facing north so the sunbeams don't enter the room from there. Still, I do a lot of my gaming in daylight while we watch most of our movies at night.

What I use my TV for
Gaming is probably my biggest hobby and one of the main reasons why I want a bigger TV. I play all sorts of games from retro (NES, SNES, N64, etc) to the modern consoles (PS3 and Wii U right now). One of my favourite genres is RPG's which often see me playing for 3-4 hours straight if my schedule allows it. I also play tons of fast paced action games and FIFA online so the TV really has to be a jack of all trades.
Movies/Series are also a big thing for me, my girlfriend and I love watching the occasional blu-ray (or dvd in some cases) together and lately some GoT too.
Watching TV is something that happens every day but that's mainly my girlfriend while I'm playing some kind of handheld like 3DS and Vita on the couch.
Last but not least, I want to be able to use this new TV as a secundairy OR primairy screen on my current(VGA) or new(HDMI) computer (which I'm going to place right next to the TV). This will serve all kinds of purposes like gaming, watching movies or simply using graphic design software.

What I will connect to the TV
I have a Marantz SR5002 receiver with speakers that I connect everything too.
Consoles currently in use: PS3(HDMI), PS2 (Component), Wii U (HDMI), Wii (Component).
Consoles not in use: Gamecube (component), NES, SNES, N64 and an old X-Box.
Digital Decoder: I also have a digital decoder but I'm probably going for CI+ on my new TV. I just hope optical out from TV to my receiver won't result in syncing problems.
Blu-Ray player: I use my fat PS3 at the moment but it's way too loud so I'm also going to buy a separate blu-ray player and connect that.

Of course I have done my fair share of research and I've taken an interest in the following TV's:

Samsung UE65F8000
Beautiful design, tons of features that I'll never use, one of the best LCD LED screens so far and a rather high input lag of 40ms (only in PC mode apparantly).

Sony KDL-55W905A
Actually, the only reason I'm even considering this TV is the amazingly low input lag of 19ms. I still think 55" is too small and that I'm going to regret buying it because of that.

I've also done some research on Plasma screens but I still feel very uncomfortable with the risks of IR and Burn in. Especially with my gaming habits (4 hours straight with one HUD cannot be good for any Plasma screen) and using it as a computer monitor also raises some questions in my head. Also, I haven't seen many Plasma screens IRL but the VT60 from Panasonic I saw in a store the other day appeared to have worse black levels and washed out colors than the LED LCD screens I have an eye on. I thought the Plasma screens were supposed to be far superior in this area so I think it must have been the brightly lit shop that didn't do the screens justice. To make matters even more complicated, apparently the latest Panasonic plasma screens have around 40ms input lag which was supposed to be a plasma strength too.

Are my worries about Plasma screens justified? Are there any alternatives that I should take a look at? Is 40ms input lag acceptable for a fanatic allround gamer like me?
post #2 of 12
You can enjoy extensive gaming sessions on a plasma with no problems, I've done it in the past. I would just turn the orbiter on if I knew it was going to be a long session that involved something like a HUD. You can even use it as a pc monitor (though I personally wouldn't), but again I would turn the obiter on for this as well. Obviously plasmas have great PQ (generally speaking) and make movies, TV, & gaming look awesome! If you are looking for plasma suggestions that fit your use & budget, then I believe you will hear almost everyone suggest the Panasonic VT60 or ZT60 (not sure on European availability or what the equivalent EU models may be). Both have great black levels & produce an amazing PQ (best on the market according to CNET and a few other review sites), plus both tested pretty well on input lag for gaming.

But with that said, I think you're on the right course with the Sony & Sammy LED's you're considering. Those may better suit the functional requirements that you personally are looking for in a TV. You may want to check out the LED section of this forum for more info on those particular TVs though.

Good luck! smile.gif
post #3 of 12
Thread Starter 
Thank you for responding to my post!

I actually posted this topic first on the LCD flat pannel section but I got no responses at all. Since I'm also considering Plasma I figured I could post the same topic here too.

At this moment I think 65" is the way to go and after having tested the W905 and F8000 with a PS3 in a shop today (never thought I would find a shop where I could do that) my worries about the input lag with the F8000 are gone. They also had a VT60 which looked gorgeous, after looking at LED TV's for a while the superior black levels on the VT60 became easy to see. Unfortunately I wasn't able to try out the VT60 with the PS3 because it was already pretty late. So right now it's between LED (Samsung UE65F8000, €4.299) and Plasma (PanasonicTX-P65VT60, €3.699). I still have a lot of fears about Plasma, to make matters worse I just don't know anyone with a plasma HDTV.

I'm mostly worried about:
- Glare because of the large windows on the side facing north
- IR and Burn in from long gaming sessions
- Buzzing noise which may very well annoy me if it's loud enough

What is the orbiter, Is it like pixel shift? I can already see myself constantly worrying about IR(or worse) while playing games, compulsively checking for any signs or IR in fear of a more permanent effect.

If anyone experienced with heavy gaming on Plasma screens can take away my fears that would be great. The VT60 is cheaper, has better PQ and lower/comparable input lag (though I'm not sure how high the input lag is for the VT60 in Europe). The fact remains that with the LED TV I wouldn't have to worry about anything and I won't have to baby it, the samsung also has a beatiful design and a lot of smart tv features to make for a compelling complete package.
post #4 of 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by plusNL View Post

Thank you for responding to my post!

I actually posted this topic first on the LCD flat pannel section but I got no responses at all. Since I'm also considering Plasma I figured I could post the same topic here too.

At this moment I think 65" is the way to go and after having tested the W905 and F8000 with a PS3 in a shop today (never thought I would find a shop where I could do that) my worries about the input lag with the F8000 are gone. They also had a VT60 which looked gorgeous, after looking at LED TV's for a while the superior black levels on the VT60 became easy to see. Unfortunately I wasn't able to try out the VT60 with the PS3 because it was already pretty late. So right now it's between LED (Samsung UE65F8000, €4.299) and Plasma (PanasonicTX-P65VT60, €3.699). I still have a lot of fears about Plasma, to make matters worse I just don't know anyone with a plasma HDTV.

I'm mostly worried about:
- Glare because of the large windows on the side facing north
- IR and Burn in from long gaming sessions
- Buzzing noise which may very well annoy me if it's loud enough

What is the orbiter, Is it like pixel shift? I can already see myself constantly worrying about IR(or worse) while playing games, compulsively checking for any signs or IR in fear of a more permanent effect.

If anyone experienced with heavy gaming on Plasma screens can take away my fears that would be great. The VT60 is cheaper, has better PQ and lower/comparable input lag (though I'm not sure how high the input lag is for the VT60 in Europe). The fact remains that with the LED TV I wouldn't have to worry about anything and I won't have to baby it, the samsung also has a beatiful design and a lot of smart tv features to make for a compelling complete package.
If you are obessed and will be checking for IR constantly then a plasma might not be for you. I was obessed, I did get IR and not from gaming but from just watching normal TV and switched to an LED from the ST60. The ST60 has a better picture then my es7500 from what I can remember but it is no slouch either. I do not have to worry about what I watch or if my son watches the same show over and over for hours. I do not have to worry when he is old enough to play video games if he leaves it on for hours and walks away.

I have extreme OCD and problems like that can keep me obsessing about things for months. I try to put it into perspective but I just can't and knowing my TV has IR on it I cannot put it out of my mind. LED's give you some other things to obsess about like screen uniformaty and clouding although I have a pretty decent panel.

I did not have any buzzing problems on the ST60 but I did hear the upper models have bad fan noise.

Glare will be on an LED just as bad as a plasma. Better LEDs use reflective screens because they offer better blacks& colors. The problem with sunlight and glares on a plasma though is it washes out the colors during viewing and pretty much takes away the advantage of it's high contrast ratio in lighted environments. They shine in dim are dark rooms. I know the ZT60 is suppose to have a screen that just eats up glare though with one of the most ant-glare screens people have spoken of.

Anyway, having said all that I love my es7500 but also miss my ST60. If I was going to buy another TV today I would probably get a plasma and would really like an ST60 for my bedroon where I can control my viewing better.

Also be aware, viewing an LED from off angle is terrible and the picture really washes out so how you will view the TV should be important in your decision factor.
post #5 of 12
Don't get a plasma if you're a gamer. IR is still a serious issue and tons of people still get IR and it can take months to go away. Just read through the "master burn in break in" thread and you'll see what I'm talking about.
post #6 of 12
No problem... I'm glad you found a store that allowed you to tryout PS3 gamming on the Sammy.

Though I agree with both of the above post I will address some of your worries:
  1. You don't have to worry about glare on most plasmas. All plasmas in the mid to high end range have AR filters to prevent glare. The VT60 has an exceptionally good AR filter on it.
  2. "Burn in" is extremely rare to the point that it's almost nonexistent these day. IR (which BI is just a permanent case of) is temporary if it happens at all and can easily be addressed by special modes built into the TV to remove it or prevent it (such as pixel shifters, color flippers, screen "white out"). And contrary to what a lot of people believe LCDs are susceptible to IR as well (I'm typing this on a Dell LCD monitor that has it this very second). Both BI & IR are blown out of proportion on these forums.
  3. Buzzing is another issue that is exaggerated. Very few new plasmas have buzzing that can be heard from a normal viewing distance. Most of the time you have to be up close to the TV to hear any buzzing, that's if the TV produces any at all.

Though any TV can have it's share of issues, I would bet that the 3 worries you listed above tend to happen more often in the lower end TVs. Plus you can take measures such as running slides when you first get a plasma ("prep it" or "break in") to help prevent any future IR on the TV. Also any buzzing that a TV may produce can be heard almost immediately upon the initial plug in right out of the box. I can't speak much on PC use other then having a few friends that have done it without issue and reading some threads on here about it.

Regarding the input lag, I doubt you would have any issues with 40ms, but I would read more about that in the couple of threads there is on here to gauge what best pertains to you. They both have pretty good info regarding lag in general:



http://www.avsforum.com/t/1166196/the-official-plasma-input-lag-thread
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1467481/official-st60-input-lag-thread
Edited by TdotLee - 7/10/13 at 12:25pm
post #7 of 12
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oimagination View Post

Don't get a plasma if you're a gamer. IR is still a serious issue and tons of people still get IR and it can take months to go away. Just read through the "master burn in break in" thread and you'll see what I'm talking about.
Thanks for the heads up, I'll check out that thread for sure!

@eric3316
That does sound like something I would do, constantly checking for IR and if the IR is visible for a long enough time it would probably be the only thing I see while watching TV.
post #8 of 12
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TdotLee View Post

No problem... I'm glad you found a store that allowed you to tryout PS3 gamming on the Sammy.

Though I agree with both of the above post I will address some of your worries:
  1. You don't have to worry about glare on most plasmas. All plasmas in the mid to high end range have AR filters to prevent glare. The VT60 has an exceptionally good AR filter on it.
  2. "Burn in" is extremely rare to the point that it's almost nonexistent these day. IR (which BI is just a permanent case of) is temporary if it happens at all and can easily be addressed by special modes built into the TV to remove it or prevent it (such as pixel shifters, color flippers, screen "white out"). And contrary to what a lot of people believe LCDs are susceptible to IR as well (I'm typing this on a Dell LCD monitor that has it this very second). Both BI & IR are blown out of proportion on these forums.
  3. Buzzing is another issue that is exaggerated. Very few new plasmas have buzzing that can be heard from a normal viewing distance. Most of the time you have to be up close to the TV to hear any buzzing, that's if the TV produces any at all.

Though any TV can have it's share of issues, I would bet that the 3 worries you listed above tend to happen more often in the lower end TVs. Plus you can take measures such as running slides when you first get a plasma ("prep it" or "break in") to help prevent any future IR on the TV. Also any buzzing that a TV may produce can be heard almost immediately upon the initial plug in right out of the box. I can't speak much on PC use other then having a few friends that have done it without issue and reading some threads on here about it.

Regarding the input lag, I doubt you would have any issues with 40ms, but I would read more about that in the couple of threads there is on here to gauge what best pertains to you. They both have pretty good info regarding lag in general:



http://www.avsforum.com/t/1166196/the-official-plasma-input-lag-thread
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1467481/official-st60-input-lag-thread
Wow, so the input lag for the VT60 is actually worse than for the F8000? Though the F8000 must first label the connection "PC" before it can achieve acceptable levels of input lag and that in turn limits the amount of calibration/customization and PQ. I assume the PQ when gaming is much better on the VT60.

And how much time will I have to put into "taking care" of a Plasma screen with my gaming habits. Even after breaking in a Plasma I should handle everything it displays with care I assume. let's not forget that every retro game I play will be displayed in 4:3, what kind of measures do I have to take for the black bars to not be visible long after I played the game? From what I read it sounds like a lot of work for a fanatic gamer like me to take good care of a Plasma screen or am I wrong in thinking that these measures I have to take cost time and effort (and that's not even counting the break in period).

I even managed to get IR from the FIFA HUD on my current LCD too, it went away after 2 days of blue screen when I was at work but it still annoyed me to no end while watching anything on TV. You say IR and BI are blown out of proportion on this forum but I'm thinking it may have more to do with what and how you watch/play content on your TV. If someone like me plays a retro 4:3 game for 2 hours straight that would no doubt result in a severe case of IR or is 2 hours not long enough? I would love for someone to explain to me how much time and effort I actively have to put into taking care of a Plasma to prevent severe IR or even BI when gaming will probably be the main thing the TV will be used for.
post #9 of 12
If you play a lot of games, especially for long play sessions, I suggest going with something other than a plasma. The picture quality is excellent (mainly due to the excellent black level / deep blacks), but it's a big investment and you don't want to ruin and/or be constantly worried and have to compromise just to protect the TV.
post #10 of 12
I have played extremely long gaming sessions on my plasma and have not had any issues with IR in the 4 years of owning my current one. Is this a problem that is popping up on newer sets again?
post #11 of 12
My u50 got bad IR after gaming dark souls for around 50 hours. the IR has been there for about a month now... not sure if it will ever completely go away.
post #12 of 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by plusNL View Post

Wow, so the input lag for the VT60 is actually worse than for the F8000? Though the F8000 must first label the connection "PC" before it can achieve acceptable levels of input lag and that in turn limits the amount of calibration/customization and PQ. I assume the PQ when gaming is much better on the VT60.

And how much time will I have to put into "taking care" of a Plasma screen with my gaming habits. Even after breaking in a Plasma I should handle everything it displays with care I assume. let's not forget that every retro game I play will be displayed in 4:3, what kind of measures do I have to take for the black bars to not be visible long after I played the game? From what I read it sounds like a lot of work for a fanatic gamer like me to take good care of a Plasma screen or am I wrong in thinking that these measures I have to take cost time and effort (and that's not even counting the break in period).

I even managed to get IR from the FIFA HUD on my current LCD too, it went away after 2 days of blue screen when I was at work but it still annoyed me to no end while watching anything on TV. You say IR and BI are blown out of proportion on this forum but I'm thinking it may have more to do with what and how you watch/play content on your TV. If someone like me plays a retro 4:3 game for 2 hours straight that would no doubt result in a severe case of IR or is 2 hours not long enough? I would love for someone to explain to me how much time and effort I actively have to put into taking care of a Plasma to prevent severe IR or even BI when gaming will probably be the main thing the TV will be used for.

Not necessarily, VT60-47.9ms vs F8000-50.9ms, so virtually no difference. This is according CNETs tests.
http://m.cnet.com/news/game-mode-on-cnet-tests-tvs-for-input-lag/57587317

You have a legitimate concern about 4:3 gaming on a plasma. I'm not trying to persuade you one way or the other. I'm just letting you know that it can be done, if you are willing to take necessary precautions. I would activate the pixel orbiter (shifter) before starting a gaming session and turn it off after I'm done. You wouldn't even notice it, especially on retro 4:3 games. This would help prevent IR from occurring. I used it on my old LG plasma (that was notorious for IR) while playing PS3 (COD,Uncharted,& sports games) and never once had an issue. But with that said (and as you stated), everyone's experience is going to be different depending on your own personal use of the TV. Fingolfin269 & Oimagination have proven this above.

Let me clarify my BI & IR blown out of proportion statement. What I mean by this is this, the majority of TV owners are not on a forum discussing their TVs. So most do not have a problem with their TVs. Most of the people on these forums are people that are either "audio/video geeks" (no offense people), people that like to research before big purchases like TVs (like yourself), or people that are having problems with their devices and are looking for answers (hence hearing a lot of IR issues on here).

With all this said... If you want a quality picture and piece of mind of not worrying about babying your TV, get the F8000. If you like the idea of having one of the top PQs of on the market and are willing to take some precations get the VT60.
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