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I don't get the Bose hatred - Page 5

post #121 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by charmerci View Post

Which begs the question - why hasn't the flat Nxt speaker taken off?
Women don't know about them yet? smile.gif
post #122 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by charmerci View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

That would be the demographic that owns twenty plus pairs of shoes, not a single one of which actually fits. They don't care if their ears bleed so long as the speakers are, if not totally invisible, at least close to it. rolleyes.gif

Which begs the question - why hasn't the flat Nxt speaker taken off?

Quote:
NXT CHANGING NAME TO HIWAVE
20-12-2010 09:57

Audio technology developer NXT is changing its name to HiWave Technologies.

Management has decided to change the company's name to reflect its move to being a developer of components and modules to exploit its patented Bending Wave Technology. The company is focusing on computing, telecoms and automotive electronics.

The financial year end is changing from June to September. This means that the current financial period will be for 15 months to September 2011.

Dr David Bramwell is taking over as non-executive chairman on 1 January.

The ticker will change to HIW when the name change takes effect on 21 December.
Related share prices

There's your answer.
post #123 of 227
I, being a pro-audio pro myself, DO get the Bose hatred. Well, not really hatred; just a firm dislike. They sell gear based on marketing only. Small, attractive dimensions and appearance, etc. Sure: they newer stuff sounds okay and impressive (mostly just "Big"), but I still believe their design trend goes against the laws of physics. Such small sattelites just can't produces bass deep enough to make the subwoofer work in it's most efficient range. Therefore the sub has to reproduce frequencies that are so high it makes speech sound blurry and unnatural. And on top of that, the subs becomes "visible". Not good, if you ask me. And I'm not even talking yet about the disadvantages of poorly damped, plastic cabinets.

Bose produces "good" sound with the help of psycho-acoustics and a bunch of DSP-based processing. And that's very audible: hyped bass (though not really deep lows), poor distortion figures, poor center image, etc. I prefer to hear the source as it's intended.

Just my €0,02.

James.
post #124 of 227
To think even for a moment that Bose does not have an active R&D department with an anechoic chamber, sophisticated measuring capabilities and that it doesn't extend to internal studies involving consumer preference in all its many facets would be a gross underestimation. The satellites cannot do what you say but neither can any small diameter speaker yet they do a better job than a TV speaker. Further they don't sell or market a subwoofer but rather a bass module. As far as naturalness sounding goes, the system still makes the listening experience more pleasurable. I don't see where they go against the laws of physics. Maybe you can point to specific claims they make that transcend the boundaries allowed under US advertising laws.

While you may prefer the source as it was intended and so may all recording artists and anyone who's involved in mastering the product, the people and shareholders who pay the bills prefer that the product be consumed by whatever means possible. That means on crappy TV sets, cars, computers with Logitech speakers, mobile phones, and tablets all of which won't hold a candle to a Bose system. Certainly Bose isn't for everyone and some people move on to something different as their tastes change.
post #125 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

To think even for a moment that Bose does not have an active R&D department with an anechoic chamber, sophisticated measuring capabilities and that it doesn't extend to internal studies involving consumer preference in all its many facets would be a gross underestimation.

Agreed.

This is obviously a piece of marketing fluff, but I don't think that they could get away with lying about the facts that it contains:

http://www.bose.com/controller?event=VIEW_STATIC_PAGE_EVENT&url=/learning/featured_stories/feat_research.jsp

"One of the more fascinating rooms at Bose is the anechoic chamber (literally, a room with no echoes). Anechoic chambers are designed to measure a speaker's frequency response without the reflected sound that's characteristic of normal rooms. The quiet solitude in an anechoic chamber results in absolute measurements. In fact, the oldest wedge-based anechoic chamber, built in 1940, was once cited in the Guinness Book of Records as the world's quietest room"

So yes they have an anechoic chamber, and by many accounts a very good one. This is an area of technology that has not changed much over the years so I can't hold its age against them.
Quote:
The satellites cannot do what you say but neither can any small diameter speaker yet they do a better job than a TV speaker. Further they don't sell or market a subwoofer but rather a bass module. As far as naturalness sounding goes, the system still makes the listening experience more pleasurable. I don't see where they go against the laws of physics. Maybe you can point to specific claims they make that transcend the boundaries allowed under US advertising laws.

Given what is being done with exotic cables and the like, they have considerable latitude ;-)

Bose sends their engineers to the usual professional engineering meetings and are known to my friends who do the same. They are typically bright, hard working people who like most engineers respond to the directives of their management. I may not agree with those directives in every case, but producing audio gear is a business, and does not have to meet the same goals as held many audiophiles who post on forums.

My main complaint against Bose is value for money spent.
Edited by arnyk - 10/24/13 at 5:04am
post #126 of 227
Quote:
My main complaint against Bose is value for money spent.

I think that's the issue. I don't think anybody hates Bose. They simply wouldn't recommend them above other products. Given the design objectives, they aren't bad. The problem is the objectives. It isn't a line designed for audiophiles or HT enthusiasts. It is for people who want their sound heard and not seen.
post #127 of 227
Ofcourse Bose has an anechoic chamber. How else would you expect them to seriously test and measure their designs? I never said they don't have one. That being said, whatever their design philosophy, I just don't think it results in good sound. Their stuff may sound amazing to most "consumers", who will buy it, which in turn will pay the share holder's bills. All just fine. But that still doesn't change the fact that their gear costs too much compared to what you really get. Which is basically an inherently poor performing system, with small, light, underpowered, plastic speakers, with huge distortion figures and a DSP that processes the hell out of the signal in an attempt to compensate for these shortcomings. And, granted, viewed in the context of the package, it works quite well. The system as a whole sounds, as I said, okay and mostly just BIG. I just prefer a more natural sounding and more dymanic presentation than what Bose has to offer. If someone else prefers Bose, fine.

Don't ask me for measurements, because I don't have them. I trust my ears to tell me what's wrong with the presentation. But I do know for a fact that Bose up until not too long ago used production techniques found only in really cheap, chinese audio brands. How? By taking a blow up system apart. Today thay seem to have transtitioned to better quality components, which is audible. But... it doesn't change my opinion.

And speaking of Logitech: I'll take this Logitech set over anything Bose has to offer - any time.


Sorry. I just. Don't. Like. Bose.
post #128 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

the system still makes the listening experience more pleasurable.

I honestly disagree with that. I've only owned one Bose product which was a wave radio that I got for free. I don't know what frequency specifically was being effected, but there was such an overemphasis in the upper bass that it was physically uncomfortable for me to listen to. I sold it. I sold a free wave radio.
post #129 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesblond View Post

Don't ask me for measurements, because I don't have them.
Take a look here:
http://web.archive.org/web/20130121081646/http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html
post #130 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by simp1yamazn View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

the system still makes the listening experience more pleasurable.

I honestly disagree with that. I've only owned one Bose product which was a wave radio that I got for free. I don't know what frequency specifically was being effected, but there was such an overemphasis in the upper bass that it was physically uncomfortable for me to listen to. I sold it. I sold a free wave radio.
Fair enough. I don't own a wave radio buti listened to one in the waiting room of a shop that installed tire and thought it sounded OK albeit a bit pricey. Perhaps there was a reason why you were given it for nothing.
post #131 of 227
Someone at work in the maintenance department brought in an Acoustic Wave music system (the tall Wave) and they had it blasting away.

Ugh. Just awful. confused.gif
post #132 of 227
The funny part is they sell more speakers than anybody else.
post #133 of 227
For awhile Aiwa was the leading seller of speaker system...cheap crap, but the leading seller! Pyle pro sells a ton of cheap speakers, too!
post #134 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Take a look here:
http://web.archive.org/web/20130121081646/http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html

Nice. Although it has the sound of someone who has a deep rooted, almost religious hatred of Bose, the conclusions on that site are pretty much spot on.

Also interesting: http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/57625-6-bose-cheap-speakers
Do a search and you'll find much more evidence about the cheap-a$$ production used by Bose.
post #135 of 227
Everything that's been said, plus, enthusiasts of every stripe like to flaunt their secret, insiders-only knowledge; it makes them special. At an audio forum, one reliable and easy way for you show that you're clued-in is by attacking Bose.
post #136 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

I think that's the issue. I don't think anybody hates Bose. They simply wouldn't recommend them above other products. Given the design objectives, they aren't bad. The problem is the objectives. It isn't a line designed for audiophiles or HT enthusiasts. It is for people who want their sound heard and not seen.

I agree to some extent but I think you are giving Bose a bit of slack on the "design objectives" comment. You are 100% correct that Bose is not targeting audiophiles or HT enthusiasts and their design objectives do reflect this fact so in that sense Bose products perform well for their INTENDED customer. HOWEVER they market their product in a way that would lead the non enthusiast to believe that Bose = a high fidelity, state of the art, quality product that merits a price premium. Further to that, they don't publish specs and put forward flawed/dishonest justifications for not doing so. This is the problem that I have with Bose.
post #137 of 227
You mean like almost every other product? Hype isn't exactly uncommon in the marketing business.
post #138 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

You mean like almost every other product? Hype isn't exactly uncommon in the marketing business.

Hype isn't uncommon in the marketing business but I'd put forward that in an industry where science/physics matter and performance can be objectively measured "Hype" is less acceptable.

Bose is in class of its own given how successful its been with the "hype" its employed and the lengths it has gone to keep the charade going. Name another electronics firm that has marketed itself in way that is consistent with the definition of "hype" below. This is a company that refuses to publish specs under the guise that "they don't matter", this is a company that makes it very "difficult" for the press to publish negative reviews of their products. This is a company that spends an outrageous sum on marketing relative to the R&D driven innovations it has delivered.


Definition of "hype":
Exaggerated or extravagant claims made especially in advertising or promotional material.
An advertising or promotional ploy.
Something deliberately misleading; a deception.
post #139 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA Beancounter View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

You mean like almost every other product? Hype isn't exactly uncommon in the marketing business.

Hype isn't uncommon in the marketing business but I'd put forward that in an industry where science/physics matter and performance can be objectively measured "Hype" is less acceptable.
And just who is going to be the watchdog and arbiter of what's acceptable? You use the approaches that work.
Quote:
Bose is in class of its own given how successful its been with the "hype" its employed and the lengths it has gone to keep the charade going. Name another electronics firm that has marketed itself in way that is consistent with the definition of "hype" below. This is a company that refuses to publish specs under the guise that "they don't matter", this is a company that makes it very "difficult" for the press to publish negative reviews of their products. This is a company that spends an outrageous sum on marketing relative to the R&D driven innovations it has delivered.
They appear to be successful but seeing as they're not a publicly traded company and not being privy to their financials, there's no way of determining what their expenditures are Relative to sales. You're right, they don't publish specs but one can make an argument that their demographic is either not overly concerned with specs nor would they know how to interpret them. Specs I think are not high on the list for why some people are drawn to Bose. One can make a compelling argument that many of the specs that are trotted out are dumbed down to begin with and won't tell you if the product you're considering is suitable for your intended use.

If the press is concerned about their specs then they ought to determine them on their own instead of relying upon a manufacturer's data sheet.

As to other electronic firms that have used hype to sell their products, well just about all of them unless your intent is to selectively apply one of the definitions. How about the various companies that have taken the OPPO platform and stuck the guts into their own case? What about all the car stereo companies that use hot looking babes to promote their products? What about the defunct AV123? How about HK using JLo to market their slim line speakers? Maybe we can toss in all those outfits selling power conditioners and AC line noise scavengers.


Definition of "hype":
Exaggerated or extravagant claims made especially in advertising or promotional material.
An advertising or promotional ploy.
Something deliberately misleading; a deception.[/quote]
post #140 of 227
Damn good marketing.
post #141 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by toddt007 View Post



My first cell phone was a StarTac! That was back in '89. Still have the same cell phone # that I had with that phone!!! eek.gif
Geez, my first phone was the old bag phone. Now I really feel like an old fart!

post #142 of 227

The thing about Bose is that it's not all about sound quality. This may/may not be a surprise to audiophiles, but to the average consumer, there are other factors to consider in a home theatre system other than just sound quality. Factors like ease-of-use, style/look, speaker size, setup and dismantling, friendly user interface (you get the point). Most, not all, Bose systems tick all the boxes. And Bose targets customers who don't want wires everywhere and large tower speakers(despite them having better sound at the same or lower price). I have a Bose Cinemate GS Series II and I'm quite happy with it. While Bose is definitely not the best audio company, it's still not horrible and if you do buy Bose, you probably won't be let down. Yes they do rely a lot (I mean a LOT) on marketing and customer satisfaction, but hey, a lot of businesses these days do. 

 

I would recommend Bose if you want a simple setup, small speakers that don't physically fill up your room, an easy to use system and good (but not the best) sound quality. Otherwise save yourself $2K and get the conventional HTIB from other manufacturers. :) 

post #143 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA Beancounter View Post


HOWEVER they market their product in a way that would lead the non enthusiast to believe that Bose = a high fidelity, state of the art, quality product that merits a price premium. Further to that, they don't publish specs and put forward flawed/dishonest justifications for not doing so. This is the problem that I have with Bose.

I think that Bose markets itself as the best audio company for its demographic. Their target customer is, as you mentioned, non-enthusiasts; the average person who hasn't heard of (or has no interest in) better-sounding brands such as KEF, Focal-JMLAB, Bowers & Wilkins, Boston Acoustics, or even Bang & Olufsen and JBL to an extent (even though both companies also rely on marketing) and are instead more familiar with Panasonic, Sony, LG, JVC (etc.)

 

As for their reluctance to publish specs, Bose is largely based around psychoacoustics (i.e. the way we perceive sound), and prefer to use psychological results rather than physical results. Even if they did publish specs, many (if not all) people who buy Bose products wouldn't care about this information, or wouldn't understand any of it. 

 

This is just merely how I perceive it, I'm not trying to be extra-defensive of Bose or anything. :)

post #144 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by thejaywalker View Post
 

The thing about Bose is that it's not all about sound quality. This may/may not be a surprise to audiophiles, but to the average consumer, there are other factors to consider in a home theatre system other than just sound quality. Factors like ease-of-use, style/look, speaker size, setup and dismantling, friendly user interface (you get the point). Most, not all, Bose systems tick all the boxes. And Bose targets customers who don't want wires everywhere and large tower speakers(despite them having better sound at the same or lower price). I have a Bose Cinemate GS Series II and I'm quite happy with it. While Bose is definitely not the best audio company, it's still not horrible and if you do buy Bose, you probably won't be let down. Yes they do rely a lot (I mean a LOT) on marketing and customer satisfaction, but hey, a lot of businesses these days do. 

 

I would recommend Bose if you want a simple setup, small speakers that don't physically fill up your room, an easy to use system and good (but not the best) sound quality. Otherwise save yourself $2K and get the conventional HTIB from other manufacturers. :) 


The problem with this philosophy is that you do not have to resort to large, imposing, expensive, complicated systems to trump Bose.  It is more about value.  You can get similar sized systems, of dramatically better quality, with dramatically superior sound, for less money.

 

The sound quality is only good if taken in comparison to factory TV speakers. 

post #145 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by lespurgeon View Post

It is because BOSE is a $1,000 iPhone compared to a $500 Galaxy S4. The Galaxy is a little better in every way, and costs 1/2 as much. The iPhone is pretty and good enough for most people.


Horrible analogy concerning the iphone......the quality difference of iphone is unquestionable, except for android users that have never had one.  Can't tell you the number of ipone haters I have seen who constantly have to remove the battery from their "just as good for less money" android phone to reset it when it locks up.

post #146 of 227
So any recommendations for an alternative to the Wave® Music System III. I'm talking an all in one cd player system like this. I too dislike Bose and would love for this person to not spend $500 on it, but I had someone ask me about this and I can't say that I found anything that is all in one with a CD player like this. Bose might finally have one up on me frown.gif
post #147 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by emerson1 View Post

So any recommendations for an alternative to the Wave® Music System III. I'm talking an all in one cd player system like this. I too dislike Bose and would love for this person to not spend $500 on it, but I had someone ask me about this and I can't say that I found anything that is all in one with a CD player like this. Bose might finally have one up on me frown.gif

I would look at this Yamaha system - may be a little bigger, however it would
be worth it to me
http://www.adorama.com/YAMCR232BL.html

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/YAMMCR232BL/YAMAHA-MCR-232-Micro-Component-System-w/iPod-Dock/1.html

However, there is this Yamaha one
http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-MCR-B142BL-Desktop-Bluetooth-System/dp/B00B2IRJ76
post #148 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by thejaywalker View Post

I think that Bose markets itself as the best audio company for its demographic. Their target customer is, as you mentioned, non-enthusiasts; the average person who hasn't heard of (or has no interest in) better-sounding brands such as KEF, Focal-JMLAB, Bowers & Wilkins, Boston Acoustics, or even Bang & Olufsen and JBL to an extent (even though both companies also rely on marketing) and are instead more familiar with Panasonic, Sony, LG, JVC (etc.)

As for their reluctance to publish specs, Bose is largely based around psychoacoustics (i.e. the way we perceive sound), and prefer to use psychological results rather than physical results. Even if they did publish specs, many (if not all) people who buy Bose products wouldn't care about this information, or wouldn't understand any of it. 

This is just merely how I perceive it, I'm not trying to be extra-defensive of Bose or anything. smile.gif

I'd put forward that their target customer is someone who wants great sound, has the means to acquire it but not the time to invest in researching their purchase decision. There may be some products Bose offers that perform quite well, I heard their sound dock and it seems pretty decent for what it is. But there are others (Bose TV's, & Acoustimass) that are abysmal for the price being charged.

As to the specs issue, I'm sorry but there is no principle from the study of psychoacoustics that supports the idea of having a mid bass module that is localizable or the elimination of key frequencies that fall outside the range of the bass module and "cubes" in the acoustimass systems. Publishing the specs of the various acoustimass systems would expose these two issues and that is the reason Bose will not publish them.
post #149 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by thejaywalker View Post

As for their reluctance to publish specs, Bose is largely based around psychoacoustics (i.e. the way we perceive sound), and prefer to use psychological results rather than physical results.
Bose is not based on psychoacoustics. They're based on psychology, that being if you repeat a myth often enough there's a segment of the population that will accept it as fact. In this case the myth is 'Better sound...through research'. They repeat this myth in their advertising, the budget for which is as much as all the rest of the industry combined, and that pays off in sales made. To reveal actual factual data would contradict the myth, so they don't. To allow their dealers to have side by side comparisons with other brands in listening rooms would shatter the myth entirely, so they don't do that either.
post #150 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post


Bose is not based on psychoacoustics. They're based on psychology, that being if you repeat a myth often enough there's a segment of the population that will accept it as fact. 


Like the Q-Ray welness bracelet!

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