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Carl's vs. Elite

post #1 of 45
Thread Starter 
Hello all! Just got my first projector (Benq W1070) and I got this screen. I have it stretched out against my off-white wall and to me the picture looks good. But I am wondering how much better the picture would be if I got an Elite screen, like this one. What differences would I notice? Thanks!
post #2 of 45
I don't think you would would see much of any difference. They are both 1.0 gain white screens as far as I can tell. Now if you painted your blackout cloth screen once you have stretched it over a frame with a high performance paint, then you would see quite a difference!
post #3 of 45
Actually, BOC is at very best 0.9 gain. The MaxWhite is supposed to measure out at 1.1 gain, which doesn't sound like a big difference but in fact is very noticeable in any direct comparison.

The Man in the Big Hat has it right though...if you bother to apply the right paint...presto...you'll have a Screen that performs like a $1000+ example.
post #4 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Actually, BOC is at very best 0.9 gain. The MaxWhite is supposed to measure out at 1.1 gain, which doesn't sound like a big difference but in fact is very noticeable in any direct comparison.

The Man in the Big Hat has it right though...if you bother to apply the right paint...presto...you'll have a Screen that performs like a $1000+ example.

Can you link me to the paint?
post #5 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by terminal33 View Post

Can you link me to the paint?

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1319717/the-official-rs-maxxmudd-v-2-mix
post #6 of 45
@terminal33

Hi, I've been surfing through the web in order to find info on the BOC.
Now I noticed that you have exactly the same setup (except my BenQ W1080ST) so I went for my first post here...

I would appreciate if you share some feedback on that cloth, did you paint it finally? If so, did you follow the RS-Maxxmudd recipe for paint? Which one in particular?
I was going to paint mine after stretching on DIY frame but I don't really want to ruin it so any advice would be great!

thx!
post #7 of 45
I wouldn't stretch the BOC super tight, just tight enough to get rid of any wrinkles. When you paint the BOC with white primer it has a tendency to shrink some. You definitely need to prime the BOC before painting with the RS-MaxxMudd v2.1.
post #8 of 45
Now hold up dar Pard......

I stretch BOC just as far as my "normal strength" and grip will allow. Properly fastened in the correct sequence and with an adequate number of fasteners, the BOC is not subject to enough added stress from and cure-induced shrinkage to be concerned with, "WHEN" the painting is done via spraying on a loose, thin mix such as RS-MM-LL.

Also, Gol Durn it....I NEVER prime BOC or any other cloth, if the smooth surface is used. I do lightly sand the finish coats after the second application to remove static-induced fuzzys, but if the cloth is white, and the paint is applied correctly, then the white underlying BOC doers the same job as a white primed wall or board would.
post #9 of 45
I guess I am getting too old to rely on my memory. I stand corrected. Thanks for setting thing aright.
post #10 of 45
Dont wanna spam topics so I think maybe I'll hijack this one instead.

Well, I live in Brazil. That's the bad news. Now on to the good news: me and mi dad, we go to the U.S. frequently. I had bought me a w1070 earlier this year but as it turns out Im selling it cause it's not short throw enough (it's going to be in my own room). So I'm getting me a w1080st, looking for a 120" screen.

My room has light yellow walls and ceiling and the floor is light wood. The room itself is good, but I can't stop some of the light, so even with the drapes closed there's some light. It comes sideways to the screen. We do have our own screen makers here in Brazil, most of 'em charge absurd prices for their screens, but there are some more budget oriented. Such as this:
http://www.notecomshop.com.br/detalhes_produto.php?cod_produto=294&cod_categoria=34

That's R$680, around 270 bucks for a pull up MatteWhite 1.1 gain, shipped. They say the screen material is imported, heck should I know where from. Not super cheap either but hey, it's easy to get, it's close by. I almost ended up buying it. But then I read the w1070/w1080st review and in it they recommend a HC screen for it, to help out with the blacks and they say it works specially well if ambient light comes from the sides. Now, that got me wanting a HC Gray. Quoting:
Quote:
If you have some of your ambient light coming from the sides, I'd definitely suggest a high contrast gray.
Quote:
That HC gray screen rejects most of the side lighting. This allowed me to even have my slide window shades open a few inches on sunny days, and still have a large, great football image. If your ambient is coming from straight back near the projector, like rear windows, the HC gray won't help you.

Ultimately, an HC gray is going to be the best choice for most folks with lighter rooms, and especially if the lights are on the sides. Consider the especially the Firehawk G3, and the various Screen Innovations Black Diamond screens (different gains, etc.) which are especially good, but also relatively pricey. More affordable: Elite's HC Gray, Da-lite's HC-Da-Mat, possibly Stewart's new Cima series I haven't worked with any of them yet. Typically we're talking screens with gains of 0.8 to 1.1 gain. Trading a bit of brightness for some ambient light rejection is a plus. (Note HC screens are a touch darker in the corners/sides.)

They also have a HC Gray screen, for the same price, pull up:
http://www.notecomshop.com.br/detalhes_produto.php?cod_produto=248&cod_categoria=34

But its not an imported material. The gain is 1.3. Since the w1080st is so bright I'm not sure if 1.3 is after all going to be too much. Anyhoo, I think I can get a better quality screen at the US then make it a fixed frame. I must say I'm not a handyman myself, I'd buy the material then hire someone to frame/stretch it for me. So I was thinking not spending over $200 on the material in the US. Ofc I cant bring a fixed frame on an airplane lol.



So, how do you guys think I should proceed? Thanks!!!
post #11 of 45
I just got a set of samples from Carl's. Look under the FAQ. I recently upgraded my projector to an ae8000 and want a bigger screen. I have always had a 125 inch DIY canvas screen. My theater is totally dark but light walls and ceiling except for black curtains near the screen.

Interestingly there is no difference that I can see between the BOC and the canvas watching a BD movie. The FlexiWhite is very bright but has the effect of washing out the brights even in Cinema modes. In fact in general it reduces the contrast ratio. So the dark blue of the Tivo setup screen looses depth.

For sure I plan on a larger 150 inch BOC screen. The painting is intriguing but I am a bit skeptical. Could I expect to see higher contrast ratios and a brighter but not washed out whites? If not that what?
post #12 of 45
The Flexi is almost 1.3 gain, and white, so it's tendency is to reduce contrast if a bright PJ iis used. BOC is always under 1.0 gain, so it will always make blacks a wee bit blacker via attenuation...but that's all.

IUnknown, jumping from 125" diagonal to 150" diagonal will in itself serve to reduce foot lambert off such a size screen, therein reducing the surface's tendency to wash out black levels.

By painting on the correct DIY Screen Formula, you can improve perceived contrast by over 200% The bright white of the Flexi simply allows for a easier build, and provides a excellent, smooth, bright white matte surface to serve as the underlying white substrate we have advocated for use with any / all shades of High Contrast Grays
post #13 of 45
post #14 of 45
With your PJ it should suffice.
post #15 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

With your PJ it should suffice.
If you'v e got a better option, by all means, I'm all ears! smile.gif
post #16 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nachmanowicz View Post

If you'v e got a better option, by all means, I'm all ears! smile.gif

Tilt your ear toward this direction: http://www.carlofet.com/projector-screen-material/flexiwhite-projector-screen-raw-material.html

For your size screen, you can & should have it packaged in a Roll Tube fashion and boxed. It won't be over 60" long so it will go under the Plane w/no issues as checked baggage.
post #17 of 45
Those are pretty cheap, for a 120''. Folded in a tube it sums up to 90 bucks. Not rolled in a tube, for 70. Then should I apply any maxmudd in it?
post #18 of 45
Go for the Tube to avoid nary a wrinkle.

The RS-MaxxMudd will greatly improve the image. I suggest Flexi as it represents a great potential light bright white and smooth substrate. Not because it's the Killer Stand alone application. It's just a smooth, bright white material...and all such surfaces have their limitations.
post #19 of 45
I've seen you guys talk a lot about Sintra's PVC to apply Maxmudd on. Those PVC plates, I take, are rigid, right?
post #20 of 45
I haven't purchased my cloth yet. Assuming that it is going to be painted with MiracleMudd (tm) does the FlexiWhite (PVC base) serve as a better base for the Mudd than the BOC which is a cotton poly blend of some sort?

I would agree that the Flexi is smoother but the BOC is very smooth compared to drywall. The other issue at play is that the BOC comes off a roll that is 110 inches wide. To get a 11 foot (132) inch wide screen I need to buy 132x110. The Flexiwhite on the other hand comes in 126 wide roll. So 126x71 is a standard size. That makes the FlexiWhite about the same price but in a 145 inch screen. I current have hacked a 150 screen and with the ae8000 I can make the screen size whatever I want for comparison.

The BOC is very watchable as is as I stated the Flexi is very bright. My concern with the Flexi and he MM is hot spots. I am projecting from 16 feet ceiling mount with the top of the screen 6-8 inches below a to be black ceiling.

I read though half of the MM post (more in the next few days). The only comparison pictures I found were pretty small and on my iPad and I can really see the difference. I am not sure I really have the religion yet though...what is the best URL for good pictures I can display on my reference Kuro plasma to see the difference? I want to believe.
post #21 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by IUnknown View Post

I haven't purchased my cloth yet. Assuming that it is going to be painted with MiracleMudd (tm) does the FlexiWhite (PVC base) serve as a better base for the Mudd than the BOC which is a cotton poly blend of some sort?

Much better....no real basis to even consider the difference.
Quote:
I would agree that the Flexi is smoother but the BOC is very smooth compared to drywall. The other issue at play is that the BOC comes off a roll that is 110 inches wide. To get a 11 foot (132) inch wide screen I need to buy 132x110. The Flexiwhite on the other hand comes in 126 wide roll. So 126x71 is a standard size. That makes the FlexiWhite about the same price but in a 145 inch screen. I current have hacked a 150 screen and with the ae8000 I can make the screen size whatever I want for comparison.

Your getting "Width" confused with "Length" . The Flexi can be had in 126" "HIGH" size, and cut to any specified Length. Also, "Height" can also be cut to size downward from 126". So your getting a 117" x 209" (240" diagonal) is just as possible as the 150"er you've had before.
Quote:
The BOC is very watchable as is as I stated the Flexi is very bright. My concern with the Flexi and he MM is hot spots. I am projecting from 16 feet ceiling mount with the top of the screen 6-8 inches below a to be black ceiling.

The Flexi will not hot spot itself, and the RS-MaxxMud will not either.
Quote:
I read though half of the MM post (more in the next few days). The only comparison pictures I found were pretty small and on my iPad and I can really see the difference. I am not sure I really have the religion yet though...what is the best URL for good pictures I can display on my reference Kuro plasma to see the difference? I want to believe.

My older Posts (1 year+) all link directlyto Photo Bucket, but most images have been down sized to 1100 x 825. PM me a email address and I'll send you a private link to a folder with 3000+ pixel examples. But be advised that any photo cannot really give you anything but a close approximation. Instead, relying on the reports coming from members can give you most all the assurances you need.
post #22 of 45
Yes, I understand that I can get to 150 with a lot more waste. This means that FlexiWhite 150 inch is almost twice the price of 145 inches ($65 vs $120). However, given your unabashed thumbs up on the FlexiWhite being a better backing I will most likely go that direction with the plan to paint at some point in the near future.
post #23 of 45
Ok...and when you do decide to spray on a coating, the Flexi will accept paint far better than will BOC....leastwise with much less effort.
post #24 of 45
I decided to go Flexi and now am having heartburn on the stretching, This stuff is so rubbery... I bought a remnant for prototyping and am glad I did. I figured I could hone my painting skills on a small screen and make mistakes.... Well my first mistake is that I can't get the tension to work out.

As per universal advice I started in the middle and worked out towards the corners. The problem is when I get to the corner there is too much slack vertically so I can't get tight. I have redone it 4 times with the same result. I don't know if I a, stretching too tight. It would be good to know the amount of stretch per foot. My test screen is 66x37. I can stretch about an inch the short way and maybe an inch and a half he other. Seems like it should be 1.7 inches the long way but I didn't stretch it that far.

The only thing I haven't done is gone OCD and put rulers on the material and the frame, I did mark halves and quarters on both but I don't have a good feeling for what the target should be. If I have a target I might have a chance. My other remnant is 78x44. Is the smaller screen easier or harder?
post #25 of 45
With the Flexi, there is no need to overstretch. Pull it until snug is all. That amount of tension will easily remove any wrinkles, and provide a smooth, stable surface.

My suggestion is to only pull it to the point where you get coverage on the Frame, or just slightly more. But no matter what, you do have to be able to measure your pulling effort, and maintain that level through out the process.
post #26 of 45
Does your statement "coverage on the frame" assume that the material size and the frame size are the same? So that would mean almost no stretching. How far in from the edge should the staples be? Do you use electric or manual stapler? I have tried both the manual tends to not mangle as many staples but it makes my arm hurt....

Thanks in advance.
post #27 of 45
I use a Manual Stapler of the "Over Hand" variety.....one that focuses the pressure directly underneath your Palm.

So lets say your Frame is just slightly smaller than your material's perimeter. I start by placing one Top Edge just about 1" to 2" past the Top edge, then pull the opposite side to the same distance. Repeat with the "Side to Side".

If the material is substantially bigger, or actually less than the perimeter edges of the Frame, follow the same dictates and whatever amount of pull you start out with, match that on all sides.

It does help to trim off any large amount of excess material before stretching, but do so evenly.
post #28 of 45
Glad to have bumped into this thread. I am on the same boat, looking for screen material to make a 120" DIY screen. I am from the Philippines so it more economical to get the material only from the US especially Carl's Flexi material where they can have it shipped folded in a 12x14x3.5 inch box. According to Joe of Carl's, the material is forgiving to creases and if left unfolded for a day, the marks will be easily gone. Can anyone confirm this or can we get away with the fold marks once stretched onto a frame?

I am using an Optoma HD33 projecting on a 120" DIY painted plywood (gray paint) at 11 ft. My room has total light control and I always watch movies in pitch dark condition. Running in ECO mode, I find the picture not so bright especially when watching 3D.

Does a Flexi white screen increase the brightness to the HD33 projected image without seeing wash out? Is there a significant decrease in contrast with the HD33 with the 1.1 gain Flexi white?

Is it worth getting the FlexiGrey material in my case?

Elite is also selling a Cinegrey material but cost more than double compared to Carl's. There's also not much of extra screen estate to work with (DIY) because the material is designed to work with the Sable and eZ frames. Also, it is shipped in roll, so higher shipping cost to my country.

My final question is, does Carl and Elite materials produce a similar result, be it Flexiwhite vs Cinewhite or Flexigray vs Cinegrey?

Thanks:)
post #29 of 45
Dont worry about the folds. You need to stretch the heck out of the flexi in order to get the corners smooth. about 2% to 2.5% stretch. I had issues getting everything smooth and ende up being somewht OCD and marking the cloth and the frame such that I oculd line up marks on both. This makes all the differnce in getting a smooth result.

The grey is really grey I would not recommend it. The white will be more washed out but for me (Panasonic AE-9000) i switched to eco mode to get the same result as my old screen. Thegain has been quoted on these boards as 1.1 I think maybe a bit more. This really helps the 3D where I can put the projector in normal mode and get more light.

My intention is to paint it which I would think will further enhance th contrast. This material unpainted will not help the contrast. I would suggest that you order a remnant ($20) and make a small screen. I made about an 80 inch screen this is enough to make your judgements. I will be painting my prototype soon to judge the paint properties and my painting skills.

As mentioned here I was able to get a sample. Don't know about being out of the country but maybe you could make an arrangement with Carls.
post #30 of 45
The Flex-White is approx 1.1 gain and a very smooth white. As such, as IUnknown related, it does naught by itself to enhance viewable " off-the-screen" contrast. Absolutely though, use of Low lamp and effective calibration will deliver in a darkened room the levels of contrast the HD33 is fully capable of. Which BTW is not all that much, so indeed, after you stretch the Flexit-White out and view it under both 2-D & 3D modes at 120", you might decide to coat the white Flexi with a easily applied (sprayed) moderately high gain / high contrast paint like RS-MaxxMudd Standard.

In fact, every comment he made is correct, so not much more to add, except I would strongly advise you optimize your Throw distance to 13'-8" for a 120"er
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