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The **OFFICIAL** Marantz SR5008, SR6008 and SR7008 AV Receiver Owner's Thread - Page 20

post #571 of 2125
I just ran Audyssey on the SR7008 and it has set all my speaker levels really low. I find that I have to crank the volume almost to 0 to get good volume.

Can I turn up the levels without affecting the calibration?
post #572 of 2125
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Are the second set of FL/FR speaker wires connected to the Front Wide speaker posts? Is AMP ASSIGN set to "7.1 CH(Bi-amp)"? Is the Main Speakers setting set to "S. Back/F. Height"?

1) yes
2) yes
3) yes, I believe so (but will check)
post #573 of 2125
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewTT View Post

I just ran Audyssey on the SR7008 and it has set all my speaker levels really low. I find that I have to crank the volume almost to 0 to get good volume.

Can I turn up the levels without affecting the calibration?

Setting them "really low" means they are very efficient speakers and therefore don't require more than a few watts of power to reach reference volume levels (ie. 80/0db). The AVR sets the speaker/sub trim levels so you are free to adjust the speaker levels to suit your preference without impacting the Audyssey EQ curves; however, keep in mind that adjusting them all the same amount is no different than simply raising the AVR master volume the same amount.
post #574 of 2125
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoforsale View Post

1) yes
2) yes
3) yes, I believe so (but will check)

Try connecting the Front Heights to the speaker posts rather than using the pre-outs as a test.
post #575 of 2125
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Try connecting the Front Heights to the speaker posts rather than using the pre-outs as a test.

will do! I'll let you know.

BTW, I checked the manual and it only refers to DSX as adding additional channels to 5.1 material. There is no mention of DSX adding channels to 7.1 material. Could this mean that DSX will convert 5.1 source material to 7.1 by adding heights or wides, and convert to 9.1 by adding both?? Would this also mean that DSX won't add anything to 7.1 source material without taking away the back channels??? Just a theory. If I'm right then DSX simply does not work with true 7.1 material (without losing the back channels). But in that case wouldn't DTS Neo:X add the extra channels?

So confused frown.gif
post #576 of 2125
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Setting them "really low" means they are very efficient speakers and therefore don't require more than a few watts of power to reach reference volume levels (ie. 80/0db). The AVR sets the speaker/sub trim levels so you are free to adjust the speaker levels to suit your preference without impacting the Audyssey EQ curves; however, keep in mind that adjusting them all the same amount is no different than simply raising the AVR master volume the same amount.

I think I noticed the subs being toned down much more. Apparently, I had them set way too high on my old receiver.

At first I really felt like my system got gimped by Audyssey. I guess I just need to get used to a properly calibrated sounding system.
post #577 of 2125
Exactly. Give it a week or two of listening at the recommended sub level and after that if you still want to boost the subs 3-5 db (as many do), simply use the Sub Level setting and bump them up to your desired level. At the very least you don't want them set to -12db, as if that is the case you'll want to lower their sub gain knobs to about 7-9 o'clock and then run Audyssey again until they are closer to 0db than -12db smile.gif
post #578 of 2125
JDS - when I run my test I assume you want me to change the amp settings from 7.1 ch (bi-amp) to 9.1ch. I'll have to run audyssey again I assume. But what am I hoping to find?

1) If your test works, does that mean that 9.1 is only possible when the amp is assigned to 9.1ch mode? In other words, I cannot bi-amp my main speakers internally and process 9.1 channels at the same time? I'm beginning to think this is in fact the case given that the alternative amp mode is called literally called "7.1ch (bi-amp)", so I'm guessing the receiver will process 7 channels max, and even if you are using an external amp for the 8th and 9th channel frown.gif

2) if your test doesn't work, does that mean my receiver is defective?

If #1 above is correct, then does that mean the only way to get 9.1 processing AND bi-amp my front speaker is to bi-amp my speakers externally. In other words, I'd have to (a) set the receiver amps to 9.1 mode (even though I will only be using 7 internal amps), and then (b) connect the L&R pre-outs to 4 external amps (each channel split into 2 with Y adaptors)?
post #579 of 2125
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewTT View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Setting them "really low" means they are very efficient speakers and therefore don't require more than a few watts of power to reach reference volume levels (ie. 80/0db). The AVR sets the speaker/sub trim levels so you are free to adjust the speaker levels to suit your preference without impacting the Audyssey EQ curves; however, keep in mind that adjusting them all the same amount is no different than simply raising the AVR master volume the same amount.

I think I noticed the subs being toned down much more. Apparently, I had them set way too high on my old receiver.

At first I really felt like my system got gimped by Audyssey. I guess I just need to get used to a properly calibrated sounding system.

Also verify that Audyssey didn't set the subwoofer channel's trim level to -12dB. If it did, the sub won't have been calibrated properly: turn down the sub's built-in volume control and run Audyssey again.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-51779/51750#user_e6
post #580 of 2125
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoforsale View Post

JDS - when I run my test I assume you want me to change the amp settings from 7.1 ch (bi-amp) to 9.1ch. I'll have to run audyssey again I assume. But what am I hoping to find?

1) If your test works, does that mean that 9.1 is only possible when the amp is assigned to 9.1ch mode? In other words, I cannot bi-amp my main speakers internally and process 9.1 channels at the same time? I'm beginning to think this is in fact the case given that the alternative amp mode is called literally called "7.1ch (bi-amp)", so I'm guessing the receiver will process 7 channels max, and even if you are using an external amp for the 8th and 9th channel frown.gif

2) if your test doesn't work, does that mean my receiver is defective?

If #1 above is correct, then does that mean the only way to get 9.1 processing AND bi-amp my front speaker is to bi-amp my speakers externally. In other words, I'd have to (a) set the receiver amps to 9.1 mode (even though I will only be using 7 internal amps), and then (b) connect the L&R pre-outs to 4 external amps (each channel split into 2 with Y adaptors)?

Don't forget that if you're just driving speakers with separate amps and not replacing their original passive crossovers with active crossovers, then you aren't doing anything useful insofar as the quality of the sound is concerned. This is discussed in the Audyssey FAQ at
http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-51779/51750#user_b8
post #581 of 2125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

Don't forget that if you're just driving speakers with separate amps and not replacing their original passive crossovers with active crossovers, then you aren't doing anything useful insofar as the quality of the sound is concerned. This is discussed in the Audyssey FAQ at
http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-51779/51750#user_b8

Thanks Selden, I actually read those articles and I even contacted one of the writers, who admitted to me that he was not knowledgable enough to answer questions on the topic. The Anthem website says all of this is a "recurring audio-myth". In fact, passive biamping does yield true benefits, and active biamping is NOT recommended by Anthem: http://www.anthemav.com/support/faq.php

Anyway, I'm just trying to figure out if I can access 9.1 processing when the SR7008 amps are assigned to "7.1ch (biamp)" and then adding Height speakers which are powered by external amps. I know all 9 speakers do work, but only 7 of them work at the same time (i.e. I have to choose between the back speakers or the height speakers).
post #582 of 2125
Unfortunately, my impression is that the audio processing doesn't work as we'd expect or want it to. When you use two channels for bi-amping, it acts as if those two channels were using processing, too, even though they aren't actually. So far as the receiver is concerned, you're already using 9 processing channels: 7 for surround + 2 for biamping frown.gif

In other words, you'll have to forgo in-receiver biamping in order to get all 9 speakers active simultaneously.

FWIW, my reading of the biamp section of Anthem's FAQ page is that they're very carefully being vague. They don't actually say that bi-amping improves the sound in any way. They do comment on one amp running out of power not causing problems for the other side of the speaker, but that really applies only to separate monoblock external amps. The power limit normally is in the shared power supply, not in the individual audio amplifier channels. In general, if the amp driving the woofer is being overdriven, you're a) going to be deafening yourself and b) the musicality of the sound has already been seriously compromised. Even if the sound from the tweeters and mid-range drivers is OK, if the low frequencies are distorted you won't be enjoying the experience.
Edited by Selden Ball - 11/12/13 at 9:53am
post #583 of 2125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

Unfortunately, my impression is that the audio processing doesn't work as we'd expect or want it to. When you use two channels for bi-amping, it acts as if those two channels were using processing, too, even though they aren't actually. So far as the receiver is concerned, you're already using 9 processing channels: 7 for surround + 2 for biamping frown.gif

In other words, you'll have to forgo in-receiver biamping in order to get all 9 speakers active simultaneously.

FWIW, my reading of the biamp section of Anthem's FAQ page is that they're very carefully being vague. They don't actually say that bi-amping improves the sound in any way. They do comment on one amp running out of power not causing problems for the other side of the speaker, but that really applies only to separate monoblock external amps. The power limit normally is in the shared power supply, not in the individual audio amplifier channels. In general, if the amp driving the woofer is being overdriven, you're a) going to be deafening yourself and b) the musicality of the sound has already been seriously compromised. Even if the sound from the tweeters and mid-range drivers is OK, if the low frequencies are distorted you won't be enjoying the experience.

Yeah, you may be right about not being able to access 9 ch processing when the amp mode is set to bi-amp. I will test it to make sure.

As for passive bi-amping, I read the Anthem site differently. The advantage of passive biamping is that there is a lot less stress on the amps (despite the "audio myth") and that in itself gives you better performance plus more headroom. In your example, where the woofer is being overdriven - you won't reach that point nearly as quickly if you are passively bi-amping. But to be fair, if someone is expecting passive bi-amping to sound better compared to single-amping under NON-stressed conditions, then I agree that passive bi-amping has no benefits... but I don't think Anthem is saying otherwise... smile.gif
post #584 of 2125
Interesting observation and not sure if it was covered here. Audyssey set my front speakers as large and I could not change them to small manually. However, I did a firmware update on the unit and then was able to set the speaker to small with the proper crossover. I bought the AVR brand new from Crutchfield. Not sure what original firmware was on it.
post #585 of 2125
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoforsale View Post

JDS - when I run my test I assume you want me to change the amp settings from 7.1 ch (bi-amp) to 9.1ch. I'll have to run audyssey again I assume. But what am I hoping to find?

1) If your test works, does that mean that 9.1 is only possible when the amp is assigned to 9.1ch mode? In other words, I cannot bi-amp my main speakers internally and process 9.1 channels at the same time? I'm beginning to think this is in fact the case given that the alternative amp mode is called literally called "7.1ch (bi-amp)", so I'm guessing the receiver will process 7 channels max, and even if you are using an external amp for the 8th and 9th channel frown.gif

2) if your test doesn't work, does that mean my receiver is defective?

If #1 above is correct, then does that mean the only way to get 9.1 processing AND bi-amp my front speaker is to bi-amp my speakers externally. In other words, I'd have to (a) set the receiver amps to 9.1 mode (even though I will only be using 7 internal amps), and then (b) connect the L&R pre-outs to 4 external amps (each channel split into 2 with Y adaptors)?

Perhaps I misread your requirement. The AVR can do 9CH of processing, that means if you want to use the passive bi-amp setting, you have 7CH of processing remaining so beyond the standard 5.1 setup, you can choose either the Rear surrounds or the Front Heights, but you cannot do both unless you forgo the passive bi-amping.
post #586 of 2125
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewTT View Post

Interesting observation and not sure if it was covered here. Audyssey set my front speakers as large and I could not change them to small manually. However, I did a firmware update on the unit and then was able to set the speaker to small with the proper crossover. I bought the AVR brand new from Crutchfield. Not sure what original firmware was on it.

Likely just a system hiccup as there should be no reason you wouldn't be able to change the speakers from LARGE to SMALL with a dedicated sub connected.
post #587 of 2125
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Perhaps I misread your requirement. The AVR can do 9CH of processing, that means if you want to use the passive bi-amp setting, you have 7CH of processing remaining so beyond the standard 5.1 setup, you can choose either the Rear surrounds or the Front Heights, but you cannot do both unless you forgo the passive bi-amping.

Yup, you're right. I set the amps to 9.1ch, and as expected all 9 speakers worked! So, if you want to use the internal bi-amp setting, then you are limited to 7.1. Too bad. So that leads to my next question: does anyone know the power output of the SR7008 with ALL channels driven?

The recent review in S&V didn't run that test (which is strange because they usually do). Reason I ask is my front L&R speakers are very power hungry... so I might need to get external amps.
post #588 of 2125
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Likely just a system hiccup as there should be no reason you wouldn't be able to change the speakers from LARGE to SMALL with a dedicated sub connected.

Yeah who knows for sure but it was definitely odd. Is it necessary to re-run Audyssey after a firmware update? Seems like my input names were not erased but what about the EQ curve?
post #589 of 2125
No, the firmware update should not impact the Audyssey EQ.
post #590 of 2125
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Perhaps I misread your requirement. The AVR can do 9CH of processing, that means if you want to use the passive bi-amp setting, you have 7CH of processing remaining so beyond the standard 5.1 setup, you can choose either the Rear surrounds or the Front Heights, but you cannot do both unless you forgo the passive bi-amping.

In case anyone cares, another way to do it is to set the receiver's amps to 9ch mode, and then if you have an external amp you can bi-amp your front L&R speakers by using the receiver's internal amps to power one set of speaker terminals, and use the external amp (connected to the receiver's pre-outs) to power the other speaker terminals. Problem solved! I guess there was no reason to use the external amp to power my height speakers when I can use them to bi-amp the L&R speakers instead.
post #591 of 2125
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Perhaps I misread your requirement. The AVR can do 9CH of processing, that means if you want to use the passive bi-amp setting, you have 7CH of processing remaining so beyond the standard 5.1 setup, you can choose either the Rear surrounds or the Front Heights, but you cannot do both unless you forgo the passive bi-amping.


Perhaps just wishful thinking...

If bi-amping the L+R speakers not only counts as two additional amps used (of course) but also counts as two additional processing channels used, could it be the Audyssey actually performs the analysis and correction on each of the 4 front channels being bi-amped (L-high, L-low, R-high, R-low)? That would make some sense and be interesting to try it out.
post #592 of 2125
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoforsale View Post

In case anyone cares, another way to do it is to set the receiver's amps to 9ch mode, and then if you have an external amp you can bi-amp your front L&R speakers by using the receiver's internal amps to power one set of speaker terminals, and use the external amp (connected to the receiver's pre-outs) to power the other speaker terminals. Problem solved! I guess there was no reason to use the external amp to power my height speakers when I can use them to bi-amp the L&R speakers instead.

biamping will gain you essentially nothing (at the very most a potential gain of just about one decibel of clean headroom with "tpical" speakers) and unless the outboard amp has adjustable input, and you have the equipment and ability to carefully match it to the internal amps' gain, you'll end up with either too bright or too dark sound, unless you happen to be incredibly lucky and the amp just happens to have input gain that perfectly matches what happens inside the receiver.
post #593 of 2125
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

biamping will gain you essentially nothing (at the very most a potential gain of just about one decibel of clean headroom with "tpical" speakers) and unless the outboard amp has adjustable input, and you have the equipment and ability to carefully match it to the internal amps' gain, you'll end up with either too bright or too dark sound, unless you happen to be incredibly lucky and the amp just happens to have input gain that perfectly matches what happens inside the receiver.

Again, I choose to believe the folks at Anthem - passive biamping gives you more power. Even the often quoted article that discourages passive bi-amping readily admits the following:
"The system's total amplifier power has been doubled, which is probably a good thing and may actually result in a sonic improvement at high listening levels. However, if doubling the system's amplifier power is necessary, it would be cheaper to buy (for example) one 200 watt stereo amplifier than two 100 watt stereo power amps of the same quality to get the same result."

But what the writer fails to consider is what if you can't fit a massive stereo amp in your set up, and meanwhile your receiver gives you an easier and cheaper option to biamp, why wouldn't you take it??? It's really a no-brainer. Also the writer is wrong to assume someone would buy two 100 watt stereo amps - the better/cheaper option is to buy a 5x100W amp so you can bi-amp your L&R and have an extra amp for your center (of course this would mean not using the SR7008's internal L/C/R amps). Take Emotiva for example: you can get a 5x80W for a $400 or 2x150W for $500... bi-amping the 5x80W not only gives you more power plus an extra channel to boot, it's also $100 cheaper and about 10lbs lighter... so it's another myth that biamping necesarily costs more.

As for matching, yes this is a good point (assuming you are using the receiver's internal amp + a different external amp), but wouldn't Audyessy make the necessary adjustments?

But at the end of the day if you doubt the need for more power, then so be it, but I think most people would gladly double their power if they could do so fairly easily.
post #594 of 2125
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoforsale View Post

In case anyone cares, another way to do it is to set the receiver's amps to 9ch mode, and then if you have an external amp you can bi-amp your front L&R speakers by using the receiver's internal amps to power one set of speaker terminals, and use the external amp (connected to the receiver's pre-outs) to power the other speaker terminals. Problem solved! I guess there was no reason to use the external amp to power my height speakers when I can use them to bi-amp the L&R speakers instead.

The Denon manuals up until this year have had the following note regarding your new configuration ....



... although it is not listed in the Marantz manual, so just be cautious.
post #595 of 2125
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

The Denon manuals up until this year have had the following note regarding your new configuration ....



... although it is not listed in the Marantz manual, so just be cautious.

eek.gif Hope that didn't apply to Zone 2!

While I'm at it posting in here.....I ordered the SR7008 today from JD here at AVS. Thanks JD!
post #596 of 2125
^^
Sure. You're going to really enjoy XT32 to be sure. smile.gif

There's nothing wrong with connecting the pre-outs and speakers posts of the FL/FR or Zone 2/3 to "different" speakers (eg. if you wanted to have another surround setup in another room in addition to the main zone setup), rather that caution note is only when you connect the speaker posts and pre-outs to the "same" set of speakers.
post #597 of 2125
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoforsale View Post

Take Emotiva for example: you can get a 5x80W for a $400 or 2x150W for $500... bi-amping the 5x80W not only gives you more power plus an extra channel to boot, it's also $100 cheaper and about 10lbs lighter... so it's another myth that biamping necesarily costs more
You're kidding, yes? You honestly don't believe that, do you?
post #598 of 2125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Grooms View Post

You're kidding, yes? You honestly don't believe that, do you?

Maybe I'm in way over my head... if the writer says two biamped 100w stereo amps = one 200w stereo amp, then wouldn't a 5x80w amp (with 4 of the chs biamped) be more than a 2x150w amp? I note that the 5ch amp is rated 80w with all channels driven. If I'm wrong, I apologize... I'm on this forum to learn. smile.gif
post #599 of 2125
80+80 doesn't equal 160. If the tweeter gets 80 watts and the woofer gets 80 watts, it's just that, 80 watts. If you A/B'd the 80x5 bi-amping set-up vs the 2x150W, the difference would not be subtle at the high end of the volume scale. Power is about control and the more you have the better the drivers behave at higher output levels
post #600 of 2125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Grooms View Post

80+80 doesn't equal 160. If the tweeter gets 80 watts and the woofer gets 80 watts, it's just that, 80 watts. If you A/B'd the 80x5 bi-amping set-up vs the 2x150W, the difference would not be subtle at the high end of the volume scale. Power is about control and the more you have the better the drivers behave at higher output levels

I hear you. So the writer of the article is wrong about that? Even more reason to believe Anthem instead, who support passive biamping (although I don't think they literally claim it "doubles" the power). At the end of the day if you cannot fit a massive stereo amp with the desired wattage, then I see no harm in biamping amps of lesser power if they fit and you have easy access to the additional amps. Some may debate the benefits, but I tend to think Anthem is an authority on the subject. Just as an aside, my speaker manual says bi-wiring is a must, and that's much easier to do when you biamp since those amp binding posts don't always hold spades plugs very well.... I used to do it with a parasound amp and the spade kept popping out.
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