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Homeworx HW-150PVR, Support and Discussion - Page 2

post #31 of 1228
Quote:
Originally Posted by MediasonicEast View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

There are many DVR's that can record CATV channels. Where on earth did you get that idea??
That's why it is called "clear" (or unencrypted) QAM

The person that ordered the QAM to be locked thought that.
but anyways we can enable QAM with a firmware update, if it won't get us in any legal trouble

Many American TVs, digital tuners, and DVRs receive unencrypted QAM, so I don't know any way that doing so could get a manufacturer in legal trouble. After all, the box just receives the signals; if they're encrypted it doesn't decrypt them. To watch scrambled channels, someone would still need authorized equipment from their cable company. They couldn't do it with this box even if QAM were enabled.

So I'd urge MediaSonic to go ahead and enable QAM reception. It'll expand their potential customer base a little bit, and won't cost a thing. (They may wish to advertise the box as receiving over-the-air or unscrambled cable only, and add a disclaimer that the availability of unscrambled cable channels cannot be guaranteed, since some cable companies encrypt all their channels.)

Of course, they'll have to get clearance from their legal department first, and I can understand them being a bit paranoid about US law, so it may still take a while. But I'm quite sure it's perfectly legal, even here in the US with our strict IP laws.
post #32 of 1228
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post

Many American TVs, digital tuners, and DVRs receive unencrypted QAM, so I don't know any way that doing so could get a manufacturer in legal trouble. After all, the box just receives the signals; if they're encrypted it doesn't decrypt them. To watch scrambled channels, someone would still need authorized equipment from their cable company. They couldn't do it with this box even if QAM were enabled.

So I'd urge MediaSonic to go ahead and enable QAM reception. It'll expand their potential customer base a little bit, and won't cost a thing. (They may wish to advertise the box as receiving over-the-air or unscrambled cable only, and add a disclaimer that the availability of unscrambled cable channels cannot be guaranteed, since some cable companies encrypt all their channels.)

Of course, they'll have to get clearance from their legal department first, and I can understand them being a bit paranoid about US law, so it may still take a while. But I'm quite sure it's perfectly legal, even here in the US with our strict IP laws.

We have asked our office in China to prepare a QAM enabled firmware
so people can enable if they want
but new units still won't come with QAM enabled
post #33 of 1228
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post

It may change the HDMI video from the received resolution to the selected output resolution, but even that processing is most likely done digitally.
HDMI video is uncompressed and unencoded video.
The received Transport Stream is encoded (and lossy compressed) MPEG video (and audio and PSIP etc).
Therefore the video (of the tuned channel) is always decoded, meaning that the digital video is not passed through to HDMI "untouched" (as someone else wrote). Once decoded, the video can be scaled if necessary.

Regards
Edited by blue_z - 7/24/13 at 5:48pm
post #34 of 1228
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post

... I don't know any way that doing so could get a manufacturer in legal trouble.

But I'm quite sure it's perfectly legal, even here in the US with our strict IP laws.
I am not a lawyer, but...
I distinctly recall reading about laws concerning reception of signals intended for other parties rather than yourself.
IIRC when you are not the intended recipient of the signal, it may be not be legal to receive and use that signal.
Whether the signal was encrypted or not did not matter.
I do not recall if this was for prosecuting eavesdropping of mobile-phone calls or theft-of-service of cableTV.

Regards
post #35 of 1228
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue_z View Post

I distinctly recall reading about laws concerning reception of signals intended for other parties rather than yourself.
IIRC when you are not the intended recipient of the signal, it may be not be legal to receive and use that signal.
Whether the signal was encrypted or not did not matter.
I do not recall if this was for prosecuting eavesdropping of mobile-phone calls or theft-of-service of cableTV.

It really depends on what kind of transmission you're monitoring, and it isn't really relevant to whether the DVR can tune QAM channels. Homeworx isn't responsible if you're stealing cable TV: you are. As for whether eavesdropping is legal, it depends upon whether the transmission is using the public airwaves or not. If you're stealing cable, you're stealing private property to gain access to a private network, which is illegal. If you're intercepting someone's unencrypted WiFi signals, that's potentially legal, because WiFi uses public spectrum to broadcast information freely.

It's the responsibility of the signal's owner to secure it, and if he doesn't, then it's his fault if it gets intercepted. The same is true with cordless telephones and walkie-talkies. If you're using a method of communication that utilises the public spectrum and is known to be insecure, you shouldn't expect security from it, and if ways to add security exist, it's your choice as to whether you take advantage of them. There aren't too many legal precedents covering these matters yet, so many of them are something of a grey area.
post #36 of 1228
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue_z View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post

It may change the HDMI video from the received resolution to the selected output resolution, but even that processing is most likely done digitally.
HDMI video is uncompressed and unencoded video.
The received Transport Stream is encoded (and lossy compressed) MPEG video (and audio and PSIP etc).
Therefore the video (of the tuned channel) is always decoded, meaning that the digital video is not passed through to HDMI "untouched" (as someone else wrote). Once decoded, the video can be scaled if necessary.

Regards

True; but that's all digital-only processing, and it's the same processing the OP's TV would do anyway. I think the OP was worried that adding the Homeworx between his antenna and his home theater & TV would reduce audio and/or video quality by converting the signals to analog and back to digital again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue_z View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post

... I don't know any way that doing so could get a manufacturer in legal trouble.

But I'm quite sure it's perfectly legal, even here in the US with our strict IP laws.
I am not a lawyer, but...
I distinctly recall reading about laws concerning reception of signals intended for other parties rather than yourself.
IIRC when you are not the intended recipient of the signal, it may be not be legal to receive and use that signal.
Whether the signal was encrypted or not did not matter.
I do not recall if this was for prosecuting eavesdropping of mobile-phone calls or theft-of-service of cable TV.

Regards

I believe you're correct; there is a law against intentionally receiving private communications intended for someone else, even if unencrypted. I think that particular law applies specifically to the airwaves, so it wouldn't directly apply to cable theft, but of course cable theft is illegal under other laws anyhow. I'm not sure exactly what constitutes a "private communication," but I believe the old analog cell-phone signals were considered private, while communications on CB radio or FRS (walkie-talkie) bands are not. (Not sure about WiFi as Aleron Ives mentioned. I know Google was caught snooping on individuals' unsecured WiFi communications not too long ago. There was a scandal but I don't think they got in legal trouble. But that may have been just because Google is "too big to jail;" if you or I did it and got caught, we might not be so lucky.)

But just because a device can be misused to break the law, that doesn't make the device itself illegal! Cable-ready TV's aren't illegal just because someone could hook one up to cable illegally; radio scanners aren't illegal just because someone could use them (back in the analog era) to eavesdrop on private cell phone calls; VCRs aren't illegal just because someone can record a movie and give the tape to someone else; color copiers aren't illegal just because someone can use them for forgery, counterfeiting, etc. The burden of complying with the law is on the user, not the manufacturer.

Of course, there's a well-known exception to this rule: the DMCA specifically outlawed devices and software that circumvent copy protection. Even though they can be (and often were) used for legal purposes, the law (wrongly IMO) presumes they will be used illegally. But clear QAM signals are, by definition, not copy protected, so the DMCA doesn't apply.
Edited by JHBrandt - 7/25/13 at 10:35am
post #37 of 1228
Quote:
Originally Posted by MediasonicEast View Post

We have asked our office in China to prepare a QAM enabled firmware
so people can enable if they want
but new units still won't come with QAM enabled

That sounds reasonable.
post #38 of 1228
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post

(Not sure about WiFi as Aleron Ives mentioned. I know Google was caught snooping on individuals' unsecured WiFi communications not too long ago. There was a scandal but I don't think they got in legal trouble.

Google got quite a bit of bad PR for logging WiFi traffic in its street mapping cars, but I think they escaped penalties due to their activity being technically legal, if unscrupulous. AFAIK, the way the laws are set up now, it's the responsibility of WiFi owners to encrypt their traffic if they don't want people to be able to spy on it. Preventing people from intercepting it is impossible, since transmissions over the public airwaves are easy for third parties to receive. The only thing you can do is to obfuscate the transmissions so that unintended recipients can't use the information they receive. Google was logging all nearby WiFi traffic in its cars as they took street-level images, so both encrypted and unencrypted WiFi signals got recorded. The problem is that too many WiFi users are either unaware of or apathetic towards the risks of using unencrypted wireless signals. Google's activity merely received attention because there was no legitimate business reason for it to be making those logs, not so much because it was breaking any laws by doing so.
post #39 of 1228
I assume this does not allow playback of a recorded show while recording something else?

Also, is the output resolution 'fixed' or does it vary by source (native resolution)? I recall the iView has you set the output resolution and everything is scaled to that.
post #40 of 1228
Has anyone on this thread actually used one of these for recording OTA HD ,and if so how does the recoding look with the HDMI output ?
post #41 of 1228
I use both IV3500STB and HW-150PVR to schedule 3 records daily from 30-90 minutes. I has not set resolution and the record result is as good as online TV show. I use HDMI output and record to Corsair Voyage 64G Flush memory stick. TV is Panasonic
TC-P58S2 HDMI (1)v1.4 to Yamaha RX-467, HDMI(1) to IV3500 and HDMI(2)HW-150PVR
Edited by png5 - 7/26/13 at 11:17pm
post #42 of 1228
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallydog View Post

Has anyone on this thread actually used one of these for recording OTA HD ,and if so how does the recoding look with the HDMI output ?

The PQ can't decrease, since the video isn't transcoded during the recording process. It's the same video data that was broadcast by the station.
post #43 of 1228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post

The PQ can't decrease, since the video isn't transcoded during the recording process. It's the same video data that was broadcast by the station.
The way it can decrease(and does on the iView) is when it's scaled from one resolution(say 720p) to another(say 1080i). IMO the scaler in the iView(and I'd think Homework, but don't know for sure since I don't own one) isn't very good, and for the price I don't see how it could be smile.gif A native option would bypass the scaler but the iView at least doesn't have that option, again not sure about the Homeworx but I'd think it may lack that feature too...
If you wanted the native option it would be possible to change the output resolution to match the resolution of the channel you are watching but it would be kind of a PIA. I mainly watch 1080i channels so I leave mine set to 1080i but I do notice occasional interlace lines on 720p programs and just live with it.
post #44 of 1228
Quote:
Originally Posted by png5 View Post

I use both IV3500STB and HW-150PVR to schedule 3 records daily from 30-90 minutes. I has not set resolution and the record result is as good as online TV show. I use HDMI output and record to Corsair Voyage 64G Flush memory stick. TV is Panasonic
TC-P58S2 HDMI (1)v1.4 to Yamaha RX-467, HDMI(1) to IV3500 and HDMI(2)HW-150PVR
Thanks for the response
post #45 of 1228
There are almost no DVRs that offer a native output option; I think TiVo is the only current one that does. Joe Sixpack doesn't want to sit through HDMI handshakes every time he changes the channel.
post #46 of 1228






Another enjoyed project.


.
post #47 of 1228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post

There are almost no DVRs that offer a native output option; I think TiVo is the only current one that does. Joe Sixpack doesn't want to sit through HDMI handshakes every time he changes the channel.
Agreed, but that's no excuse for not providing the option! Just put it on an "advanced settings" menu and everyone's happy.
post #48 of 1228
Maybe renegotiating the HDMI connection with every channel change will overheat the wimpy CPUs in these DVRs, so they don't provide the native option. biggrin.gif
post #49 of 1228
I'm thinking about buying a HW-150PVR. I would like to know what are the selections in the menu options for Digital Audio besides RAW HDMI? Also any other audio options in the menu? The manual doesn't state a whole lot about audio options.
post #50 of 1228
Quote:
Originally Posted by watkinsd86 View Post

I'm thinking about buying a HW-150PVR. I would like to know what are the selections in the menu options for Digital Audio besides RAW HDMI? Also any other audio options in the menu? The manual doesn't state a whole lot about audio options.

For the Audio option , there are three selection
1. PCM - HW150 remote can control sound volumn
2. RAW - HW150 remote can control sound volumn
3. RAW HDMI ON - HW150 remote has cannot control sound volumn, only TV can
post #51 of 1228
Quote:
Originally Posted by png5 View Post


For the Audio option , there are three selection
1. PCM - HW150 remote can control sound volumn
2. RAW - HW150 remote can control sound volumn
3. RAW HDMI ON - HW150 remote has cannot control sound volumn, only TV can

 

By saying "only TV can", are you saying only the external device controls the audio and the output of the HW150 output is fixed? That would be logical for people who use a receiver or AVR to drive their speakers. It might be good to know if a DD 5.1 recording is made that DD 5.1 is output during playback.

post #52 of 1228
Quote:
RAW HDMI ON - HW150 remote has cannot control sound volumn, only TV can
I believe that's the same issue with the VRX. I wonder if the limitation is in the chip(s) that are used, or is it something else?

Homework should have that in their manual.
post #53 of 1228
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeKustra View Post

By saying "only TV can", are you saying only the external device controls the audio and the output of the HW150 output is fixed? That would be logical for people who use a receiver or AVR to drive their speakers. It might be good to know if a DD 5.1 recording is made that DD 5.1 is output during playback.
"only TV can" meant, the HW150PVR remote cannot control the sound volume(look like maximun sound from hdmi). I have to use the TV volume control to up or down sound volume. Since my
TV is Panasonic TC-p58S2 which HDMI 1.4 to Yamaha amp RX-C467, fro Yamaha HDMI1 to HW150PVR. TV remote can control sound volume. It is perfect for me for "RAW HDMI ON"
If you using not using HDMI audio, then the behavior will be difference.
post #54 of 1228
Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post


I believe that's the same issue with the VRX. I wonder if the limitation is in the chip(s) that are used, or is it something else?

Homework should have that in their manual.

That would be a good idea. I don't know of another DVR (or Blu-ray) that can control the audio level on playback. My old Toshiba analog DVR can tweak the input + or - 6db. Learn something new every day.

post #55 of 1228
Thread Starter 
edited

**Note: Due to not being able to get Program guide from QAM Clear channels, We decided to continue just to focus on OTA support, as we originally intended to do.
Edited by MediasonicEast - 8/21/13 at 3:45pm
post #56 of 1228
Quote:
Originally Posted by png5 View Post

For the Audio option , there are three selection
1. PCM - HW150 remote can control sound volumn
2. RAW - HW150 remote can control sound volumn
3. RAW HDMI ON - HW150 remote has cannot control sound volumn, only TV can

So only RAW HDMI outputs sound through HDMI? Setting it to PCM OR RAW produces no sound through HDMI. Correct?
post #57 of 1228
post #58 of 1228
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by watkinsd86 View Post

So only RAW HDMI outputs sound through HDMI? Setting it to PCM OR RAW produces no sound through HDMI. Correct?

PCM OR RAW , still have sound thru HDMI
Off, PCM,RAW, RAW HDMI ON . All have sound thru HDMI
at least with my set up, which is HW-150PVR connected by HDMI to a 19" LCD TV
post #59 of 1228
I would interpret RAW HDMI ON thus: the audio is simply split from the transport stream and sent directly to the HDMI output untouched. The other options allow the audio data to be modified, letting the HW-150 raise or lower the volume.

The VRX has a related issue, but not quite the same IIRC: it can alter the volume ONLY on the HDMI output, which makes no sense unless the audio is decoded (for the analog outputs) BEFORE the digital data is modified (to control the volume on the HDMI output).
post #60 of 1228
Regarding the enabling of QAM;

1, Do NOT do a channel scan (unless you want to manually "skip" a hundred or so channels). Encrypted channels (sub channels) will NOT be skipped!
2. Only do a manual channel add, one physical channel number at a time. What makes it annoying is after each "save", the menu closes forcing you to re-enter it for each additional physical channel number (one of the complaints I have have with iView).
3. When you advance to the next channel, you must wait a few second for the 'progress' bar to respond before you hit enter. If you don't you probably won't get any results. Also, entering the physical channel number is very sluggish (slow to respond).
4. Only the physical channel numbers will be shown. If your MSO does use the OTA virtual number it will not show. (This was the way iViews firmware was until it was corrected.)
5. There will still be sub-channels that will have to be skipped due to being encrypted or SD duplicates of the HD channel (if your MSO duplicates the SD version which shouldn't be necessary anymore).
6. If you don't know your physical channel numbers your MSO uses for your unencrypted stations, either try to get them from them (it will take a few phone calls) or try your local reception thread and ask there.

It's not as bad as it sounds once you know those numbers. On my system, I only have nine physical channel number I have to enter. Other systems may produce different results.
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