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Blackest black contest between JVC and DLP on ultra HT gear forum section? - Page 3

post #61 of 139
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

Have you owned any jvc that wasn't an entry level? There was a good difference from the x3 to the x70

Yes, I had an RS20 for about 6 months.

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post #62 of 139
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

And that is why you have been working on the audio side of your HT. smile.gif

That's an entirely different conversation. I've been MORE than satisfied with the audio side of my room for quite sometime (except maybe for the low end capabilities). I've been exploring the options available that deliver the same performance at lower costs. I'm all for getting the most bang for the buck and if I can save thousands of dollars on my audio side and get performance that is the same or better than what I had before, I'm all about it. In the last few months I've installed subs that cost about half of what the ones I had before did that deliver performance that is exponentially better. My new amps are a fraction of the cost of what I had before yet I haven't heard anything that makes me feel like they don't deliver every bit of the performance I had before.

But we've seen this with projectors over the last few years. They keep getting better and better and at far lower prices than ever before. Cost of entry for a picture that wasn't even as good as what I'm throwing now ten years ago would make the 1000ES sound cheap. We are in hog heaven when it comes to price/performance for home theater right now.
post #63 of 139
Haha, I think most of us are fairly happy with our audio setups. For some reason I'm no where near as picky when it comes to audio. I think it's because we live in such a visual world where we can pick up on so many subtle differences and they make an impression. I don't think our impressions are remembered nearly as well with our audio memories. Either way, I'm set with audio for quite a while. smile.gif
post #64 of 139
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Originally Posted by Charles R

I think it's rather disingenuous to suggest DLP doesn't suffer from its own related set of issues. A few I saw looking over the last several DLPs I installed...
•Chromatic aberration - at times worse than panel miss alignment.
•Focus uniformity - outer edge pixels fuzzy.
•Rainbows.
•Image pulsing - center and right side of the image pulses (on multiple units).
•Jet engine noise level.
•Pixel structure more visible.

Personally, I have owned roughly 50/50 and any blanket statement is rather crazy in my eyes.. simply shows an agenda regardless of how ingenuous.
All with the exception the pixel structure being visible (which many find a plus) is absent with my NuVision ProVu P2. You simply haven't seen a good DLP projector.

If we are talking 3 chip DLP Charles, those issues ( at least with my DLP ) don't exist. Lenses tend to be extremely high quality ( and cost as much as an Epson 5020 to boot - or more ). And as for the " jet engine noise level " will never be an issue for me - I built a projector closet. I hate seeing or hearing any projector - ever.
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Personally, I have owned roughly 50/50 and any blanket statement is rather crazy in my eyes.. simply shows an agenda regardless of how ingenuous.

There's no agenda here Charles. This subject just re-appeared because someone discovered it. The original comparison by Wolfgang Mayer was just for curiosity sake I believe on his part. He doesn't sell projectors as far as I know. And he can afford ( apparently ) just about any projector he wants. I found it interesting myself. I myself like the look of 3 chip DLP, and feel fortunate to be able to own one. But, there are many other excellent / less expensive projectors.
post #65 of 139
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Yes, I had an RS20 for about 6 months.

But that's the equivalent to the current entry level models
post #66 of 139
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post


You simply haven't seen a good DLP projector.

 

I guess the three dozen or so I have viewed weren't cherry picked.

post #67 of 139
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Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

I guess the three dozen or so I have viewed weren't cherry picked.

Seegs talks about how I haven't seen a good dlp and that the JVCs aren't as good as people say, but he has never seen the current top models, only the entry levels. I'm not saying that he is wrong but if I need to see a good dlp under $10K, he needs to see a top jvc model.
post #68 of 139
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

I've owned a Marantz S4 and 11S1, a Planar 8150 and I've used the Samsung A900 for an extended period. I've also owned quite a few of the BenQ DLP 1080p models. I've had extensive viewing times with the Sharp projectors and many demos of the high end Sim2 stuff. I can say without hesitation that I'd still take my JVC X75 over any of them. My previous RS35 bested both the Samsung and Planar in every way except motion (the older JVCs had issues with motion contouring, which is well documented) including pixel focus and chromatic abberation. The only thing we could get the Samsung to look sharper on was PC text. ANSI contrast measured higher on both of the DLPs but we could not find a single scene that translated to the DLPs looking better in this regard. But the amount of scenes where the JVC had better dynamic range and blacks was endless. My X75 has perfect convergence, outstanding pixel focus and no signs of chromatic abberation. Blacks look spectacular and the image is bright and punchy on my 120" Studiotek 130 screen (14fL). I have yet to see any DLP that delivers an image this good, including cost no object Sim2 models (which are definitely brighter, but I don't need that brightness). Don't get me wrong, most of the DLPs I've mentioned are outstanding projectors (I still think the Planar 8150 is a steal if you can get hold of one, absolutely spectacular projector) but I'd keep my JVC over any of them.

I could not agree more, I would pick any of this years JVC or Sony over any DLP model including the Sim2 Lumis 3DS. I have tested the Sim2 Lumis 3DS side by side against my Sony VW1000 and it was no contest, the Sony was better in every aspect but brightness(to bright in brightest mode in my theatre) and in 3D (VW1000 was close but a little to dim compared to the Sim2).

And Seegs108 is every DLP projector a golden sample??cool.gif
post #69 of 139
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I could not agree more, I would pick any of this years JVC or Sony over any DLP model including the Sim2 Lumis 3DS. I have tested the Sim2 Lumis 3DS side by side against my Sony VW1000 and it was no contest, the Sony was better in every aspect but brightness(to bright in brightest mode in my theatre) and in 3D (VW1000 was close but a little to dim compared to the Sim2).

That's interesting, since Art S. in the $ 20K forums compared his SIM HT5000 to the Sony, and didn't find a compelling reason to upgrade. I believe he preferred the color on the SIM to the Sony.
post #70 of 139
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

But that's the equivalent to the current entry level models

No it isn't. It has better contrast performance and has better color performance due to THX certification and the built in CMS.
post #71 of 139
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Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

I guess the three dozen or so I have viewed weren't cherry picked.

No, I'm simply saying that what you've said doesn't make a lot sense. How is chromatic abberation indicative of a bad technology? That is totally based on lens quality that the manufacturer chose to use. Like I said, take a look at a nicer unit.
post #72 of 139
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

Seegs talks about how I haven't seen a good dlp and that the JVCs aren't as good as people say, but he has never seen the current top models, only the entry levels. I'm not saying that he is wrong but if I need to see a good dlp under $10K, he needs to see a top jvc model.

The main difference between the low end and mid-to-high end is the suedo 4K e-shift and and top end has hand picked parts. They all share the same chassis, lens, bulb, main image processing, 3D emitter, remote, similar light path, ect. The difference wouldn't be as striking as you'd imagine. But, I'll do my best to check one out. I've been trying to invite myself over Zombie's house for a few months now. I think I've scared him off tongue.gif
post #73 of 139
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

The main difference between the low end and mid-to-high end is the suedo 4K e-shift and and top end has hand picked parts. They all share the same chassis, lens, bulb, main image processing, 3D emitter, remote, similar light path, ect. The difference wouldn't be as striking as you'd imagine. But, I'll do my best to check one out. I've been trying to invite myself over Zombie's house for a few months now. I think I've scared him off tongue.gif

If the entry level and top models were basically the same, everyone would have the entry level model. You base everything off of what you want to believe. That's like me saying a single chip benq is basically the same as a 3 chip SIM2, both are DLPs and a chip is a chip LOL
post #74 of 139
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

No it isn't. It has better contrast performance and has better color performance due to THX certification and the built in CMS.

You state that the entry level and flagship model is the same projector 50k:1 vs 130k:1 but the rs20 is different than the current entry level models which have identical 50k:1 contrast. You are all over the place. Ok, you like DLPs better, but you don't have to say jvc projectors have a ton a problems until they are somehow cherry picked for reviews
post #75 of 139
I never said they are the same. I said they have many of the same internal parts. 

How is this basing off of things I want to believe. You're the one doing that. I've seen a ton of projectors so I'd say my basis for reasoning this way is a lot more solid than yours is. I'm saying that contrast and a step up in fidelity is what I'm missing out on. I still don't care for the technology and am partial to the one I'm seeing now.

Jesus Christ, I'm the only person who is advocating for DLP. Some one needs to. It has it's weaknesses, I know it isn't perfect, but neither are JVCs. My eyes simply tell me that the image I'm seeing is better from a few of these projectors that just so happen to not be a JVC. I really need to take a break posting here. Enjoy your JVC projectors, I can't do this anymore. Peace out.
post #76 of 139
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I never said they are the same. I said they have many of the same internal parts. 

How is this basing off of things I want to believe. You're the one doing that. I've seen a ton of projectors so I'd say my basis for reasoning this way is a lot more solid than yours is. I'm saying that contrast and a step up in fidelity is what I'm missing out on. I still don't care for the technology and am partial to the one I'm seeing now.

Jesus Christ, I'm the only person who is advocating for DLP. Some one needs to. It has it's weaknesses, I know it isn't perfect, but neither are JVCs. My eyes simply tell me that the image I'm seeing is better from a few of these projectors that just so happen to not be a JVC. I really need to take a break posting here. Enjoy your JVC projectors, I can't do this anymore. Peace out.

Hahaha
post #77 of 139
OK guys - calm down. IMO a lot of this is splitting hairs. Under the right conditions ( room reflections / lack thereof, screen size, foot lambert requirements etc ) I can make a case that each projector technology has a place where it works better than the other. Fact is 3 chip DLP projectors are specialty niche machines. Most are high brightness light cannons made for really big screens, where a JVC would not work or be appropriate anyway ( and visa versa ).

Lets argue about something important - blonde, brunette or red head ? smile.gif
post #78 of 139
Seegs. It might have more accurate colors without an outside CMS because it has an internal CMS but it doesn't have better colors because it has a THX certification. It just costs more because of the per fee paid to THX. THX certifications means it has passed some number of THX tests. Ones own tests could be more rigorous and sets without THX certification could pass them and ones with might not. As to specific tests re color performace, that would be just a subset and for example by setting a smaller de hurdle a non THX certified could pass and a THX might not.
post #79 of 139
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Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post

I think a lot of this has to do with personal preference as well. I had a Samsung A900B and while it was sharp and the ANSI CR was better than my RS40, I prefer the RS40 hands down vs the A900B but that is just what my eyes prefer. I don't have a problem with motion on the JVC and I can't see 3D so for 2D movie viewing the JVC suits me perfectly. For those that prefer the A900B over a RS40 I wouldn't argue with their choice as their eyes might appreciate the attributes of DLP over LCOS.

Mike

I would agree with this. I had a Sharp 20k next to a JVC RS35 and while the 20k was sharper and supposedly had the highest ANSI CR of all sub $20k digital projectors, I chose to keep the RS35 and it wasn't even close to a close decision.
post #80 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

If the entry level and top models were basically the same, everyone would have the entry level model. You base everything off of what you want to believe. That's like me saying a single chip benq is basically the same as a 3 chip SIM2, both are DLPs and a chip is a chip LOL

There's one big difference, with JVC every machine from a given generation is fundamentally the same design. Same lens spec, electronic features, etc. I don't know if they just use the better panels in the higher end ones to get the higher contrast or what, but everything from an RS46 to an RS66 is all the same chassis, lens, and even lamp as far as I know. Things like CA, that aren't dependent on the difference in panels will be similar across all models in the series.

This is the same as how the Runco LS3 and LS5 are basically the same machine. Just like if you see an LS3 or LS5 you can get a good idea of the fundamental look/performance of the other the same is true of an RS46 vs an RS66 (except for e-shift).

I think what Seegs is trying to say is you can't generalize how all DLPs look by looking at just one from one manufacturer. You can't look at a BenQ W5000 and extrapolate that to what a Planar 8150 will look like, they use different lenses, chassis, lamps, and different DMDs. It would be like looking at an HW30 and saying you know what a JVC RS66 looks like because they are both LCoS.
post #81 of 139
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

That's interesting, since Art S. in the $ 20K forums compared his SIM HT5000 to the Sony, and didn't find a compelling reason to upgrade. I believe he preferred the color on the SIM to the Sony.

I don´t think color is much of a problem if you use an external CMS like the Lumagen, but if you don´t you can get "better" color on the Lumis. But I think if you buy a projector in this pricerange you can afford a Lumagen.

And I also belive Art S. has a really big screen and need the extra lumen of the Sim, but with a normal size screen I dont see the point. I get 25+ FL in high mode on my screen with the VW1000, I could just need alot more FL in 3D so the perfect setup for me would be a VW1000 for 2D and a Lumis 3DS for 3D...smile.gif
post #82 of 139
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And I also belive Art S. has a really big screen and need the extra lumen of the Sim, but with a normal size screen I dont see the point. I get 25+ FL in high mode on my screen with the VW1000, I could just need alot more FL in 3D so the perfect setup for me would be a VW1000 for 2D and a Lumis 3DS for 3D...

Now your talking! I think you've just found the ultimate setup !!

Quote:
I think what Seegs is trying to say is you can't generalize how all DLPs look by looking at just one from one manufacturer.

That may be true. IMO, the DLP originally mentioned in this thread ( SIM Lumis ) looks unlike any other that I have seen, due to the extremely fast and nearly invisible ( on properly working projectors ) D.I. system. The first time I saw one in a light controlled room, at the SIM suite at CES 4 years ago, it threw a stunning picture. Still does.
post #83 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

That's interesting, since Art S. in the $ 20K forums compared his SIM HT5000 to the Sony, and didn't find a compelling reason to upgrade. I believe he preferred the color on the SIM to the Sony.

Here is what Art originally said:
"My point is that I'm convinced that the information displayed on the Sony 4K unit shows more detail than my HD DLP. Grain structure appears more natural textures are unencumbered by the pixel edges etc.
Whether this appears to be mathmatically possible I'd have find a reason it looks so much sharper. Perhaps literally the pixel visibilty itself is the culprit but I've never experienced an iimage this detailed in moving images period.
I can't use the projector myself so I'm sticking with my HT5000 due to light output but otherwise the Sony is superior IMO.

art"

He did change this opinion at a later date. I don't know if the Sim2 would look better than my Sony in my theater as I've never compared, but I know some like the Sony better that have.
post #84 of 139
True. I think that the one thing we can take away from this discussion, and this goes IMO for most projectors, that it's not necessarily cut and dried that one brand / model trumps all others no matter what. A lot will depend on how you plan to use it. That said, Wolfgang did do what I perceived as an honest test between the Lumis and the JVC. He had no reason to cheat to make the Lumis look better - to my knowledge he doesn't sell projectors - he's an advanced projector hobbiest like the rest of us. In the end, we choose what we perceive to be " the best " and we pay our money. No real right or wrong anwser. Hell, if you knew how many JVC owners can't switch to Sonys and how many Sony owners dislike switching to JVC projectors ( the colors aren't as good, can't get used to the picture etc. ) you'd be amazed. I think we get used to a certain look we like in a projector, and despite the shortcoming of that particular technology, we still like it. And there is not a thing wrong with that! Compared to 10 years ago, it's pretty hard to pick a bad projector these days if you can spend $3K or more !
post #85 of 139
I don't think anyone really had a problem with it. Its just the rs20 is the equivalent of the current entry level and the top model today would had been a better comparison. It was that Seegs kept saying how bad the jvc projectors are and that single chip dlps are better. The Sony 1000es and 3 chip dlps costing $20k+ should throw a better picture
post #86 of 139
wow... this ended too soon. It was more fun when DLP's ruled the world and JVC's stink at everything. The motion is so bad, it looks like a rotoscope from 1920. it's true, I had them in a direct A/B setup for the shootout thread and the rotoscope won by a hair... cool.gif

it's a shame we can't have more objective discussions without the flame throwers, I remember deep-dives into this topic years ago when some of the best, objective forum members would break it down to the grains of sand. Darinp, Mark peterson, Gregr, even cine4home used to post here.

Craig - I think it's an understatement to call Wolfgang an advanced hobbiest - i'm graduating him right to a PhD. his setup absolutely dwarfs the vast majority of members here, this is one of the most amazing setups I've ever seen!

IMG_9309.jpg

Rico4KStack1920x10809.jpg
post #87 of 139
OK - he's the home theater guy I want to be when I grow up ( oh, wait, that's my portfolio that needs to grow up - by about 5 - 10 million dollars ) ! eek.gif
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I don't think anyone really had a problem with it. Its just the rs20 is the equivalent of the current entry level and the top model today would had been a better comparison. It was that Seegs kept saying how bad the jvc projectors are and that single chip dlps are better. The Sony 1000es and 3 chip dlps costing $20k+ should throw a better picture

Well, that thread is 4 1/2 years old, eh? Both projectors have been replaced at this point. It's a snapshot from 2009.
post #88 of 139
What are those - dual Barcos ? eek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gif


Hey Zombie, I'm trying to find a pair of Super Lumis 3D Solo B stock units for us. Lets just say that if our wives throw us out for buying them, we wiil certainly have the best picture anyone in a doghouse ever had..............biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif
Edited by Craig Peer - 7/24/13 at 4:51pm
post #89 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I never said they are the same. I said they have many of the same internal parts. 

How is this basing off of things I want to believe. You're the one doing that. I've seen a ton of projectors so I'd say my basis for reasoning this way is a lot more solid than yours is. I'm saying that contrast and a step up in fidelity is what I'm missing out on. I still don't care for the technology and am partial to the one I'm seeing now.

Jesus Christ, I'm the only person who is advocating for DLP. Some one needs to. It has it's weaknesses, I know it isn't perfect, but neither are JVCs. My eyes simply tell me that the image I'm seeing is better from a few of these projectors that just so happen to not be a JVC. I really need to take a break posting here. Enjoy your JVC projectors, I can't do this anymore. Peace out.

Nah, I'll do some advocating. I am fortunate enough to have seen all the latest JVC models, the Sony VW1000ES and the latest SIM2s. Whilst the latest JVCs have come a long way since my old RS1 I still wouldn't trade my IN83 manufactured in 2008 for them. Mostly for the reasons that Seegs has already mentioned and that I need something that will cope with ambient light which the JVCs just can't do well. I guess 'best picture integrity with some ambient light' would be my agenda if I had to have one. In terms of pure preference I just find .95" DLP a more satisfying, punchy image, if you have never seen one do yourself a favour and spend some time demoing one. Sometimes it seems that the mere suggestion of this is dismissed on here as a waste of time. I am truly amazed when I see used DC4 DLPs from high-end manufacturers going for the prices they do.
I could make a counter argument to one normally put forward about Sim2 being expensive: from someone who tends to prefer DLP I was very impressed with the VW1000, I would definitely switch technologies but its $20K. I would guess that the larger chip size, lens quality, resolution and brightness makes up for the deficiencies I have seen in other LCOS models. I'm not playing Devil's advocate for the sake of argument, I will happily swap my IN83 for one if anyone is interested smile.gif
For those that have seen/owned both technologies and are in their respective camps - bully for you but I would urge people to demo both, especially if you want a few lights on
post #90 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

What are those - dual Barcos ? eek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gif


Hey Zombie, I'm trying to find a pair of Super Lumis 3D Solo B stock units for us. Lets just say that if our wives throw us out for buying them, we wiil certainly have the best picture anyone in a doghouse ever had..............biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

that setup was in November 2011, I wonder what he has now.

if you find those 'Lumi', let me know and I'll start selling all the toys right now....


I'm a DLP advocate too.. depending on what i'm watching. For those who love 3D, it's basically impossible for the other panel technologies to beat it's primary strength, flawless crosstalk and flicker performance. Even if I had a VW1000, i'd still likely have a dedicated 3D DLP since I know the flicker is going to bother me with the relatively 'slow' 240hz panels.

my RS55 looks great with my other favorite content, dark sci-fi movies. I don't mind running multiple projectors to suite my viewing preferences until a good deal on that 3D Lumis comes around.. biggrin.gif
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