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Kaleidescape Introduces Cinema One, a More Affordable Movie Server - Page 2

post #31 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

agreed. i have over 1000 movies on my HTPC with plenty of space for more. 100 would be a HUGE downgrade. and i bought the HTPC for about 600bux, spent maybe another 600 on HDD's. now if i kept FULL BD's, i'd probably be closer to 200-250 movies, but that's still more for less no matter how you look at it.

they are trying to sell some great software, but have it attached to some horribly overpriced hardware.

it's a cool system for those with money to burn, but this is a huge miss for a value oriented market. i'd much rather deal with 'pc issues' once or twice a month and save thousands of dollars

I presume you try to save money in every manner possible, to afford a 1000 Blu-ray collection.
post #32 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

The only thing I would argue there... quite a few people who have the money to spare, and can afford "luxury" items, turn out to be very smart—and more concerned with simplicity and saving time, rather than saving a buck.

I am not a Kaleidescape customer nor do I plan on buying one, but after doing some research I can at least see value in the system—if money was not an object. Millionaires account for the literal majority of all dollars spent on home theater, even though their numbers are much smaller than middle-class consumers, who make up almost the entire other half of the market. So, there is a market for this.

I ought to be more clear though, when I said "consumer" I really meant "home theater enthusiast"... not Wal-mart shoppers buying the cheapest possible Blu-ray player for a $300, 42" TV.

i think the piece that's missing here is that it's not COMPLETELY disc free. if it were possible to load up your discs and just forget about them, then yes. this would be a case of somebody paying for convenience. something that happens all the time. I've spent 400bux on remotes for 'convenience'. but i wouldn't buy an expensive remote control that only worked for one device. where's the convenience in that?

that's how i see this, it misses the boat for anybody with BD's on disc. it's good for somebody that wants to download all their movies, but that's about it imo. and in that case, i feel there's much less 'convenience' than what you're paying for.

it's either too cheap(they need to pay for the rights to load up content from discs) or it's too expensive(it should be download server only) imo. it's stuck in no-man's land in the market right now
post #33 of 56
This is just a Apple TV.
post #34 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

I presume you try to save money in every manner possible, to afford a 1000 Blu-ray collection.

most aren't bd's. as I said in my post, I wouldn't be able to fit 1000 full BD's on my HTPC
post #35 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

most aren't bd's. as I said in my post, I wouldn't be able to fit 1000 full BD's on my HTPC

Well, the article did mention that with DVD and this Kaleidescape unit, you don't need to put the disc in. The limitation is strictly for Blu-ray. Just sayin'
post #36 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by nrc2112 View Post

This is just a Apple TV.

more like an apple HDtv, haha.

seriously, I see the point of this, and it's damn close. at this point it's really 'hollywood' that's ruining the product. but as long as that is the case, it's hard to promote the convenience of a 'discless' device that requires you to insert the disc.

again, I look at my 400 disc DVD changer that I bought for under 300bux years ago and think that a product like that with a more sophisticated menu would provide a Hollywood friendly solution. hell, if you want to squeeze the 4k out of buyers, include the HDD's, and download service and some wifi support to get instant meta data from online databases and it would be a very convenient system. it'd be hard to argue with the convenience of being able to simply put the disc in the machine, and have it automatically retrieve cover art, plot, cast, etc. And you'd still be able to search through it and select a movie to watch without ever having to physically insert the disc every again.

don't get me wrong, there's a lot of room for improvement on the 400disc dvd changer I have. but it's 100% software. kaleidescape could still do essentially the exact same thing they are doing now, except replace the single disc slot with a carousel so that the ppl who value convenience more than 4000 dollars can actually get what they're paying for. the ability to select BD quality movies from a list and get instant playback
post #37 of 56
There is already that Vault thing that does exactly that, but it's absolutely insanely expensive.

http://www.kaleidescape.com/products/premiere/disc-vaults/
post #38 of 56
And really, the Vault setup isn't that much more expensive than the Cinema One.
post #39 of 56
OK, I've got a couple comments.

Firstly as someone else mentioned, you can add a Vault (for $$$$) to be able to go "disc free".

Second, I see a lot of people saying you can just build an HTPC and storage for cheap, well that's true. Problem is the software relatively sucks. XBMC is pretty but doesn't offer native resolution switching and it's deinterlacing and scaling is terrible compared to a Lumagen.

I've had my DVDs and Blu-rays stored on my PCs for years, I've tried lots of solutions. I've never been entirely happy, there's lots of sacrifices to going that route. You give up some quality, ripping is somewhat a pain (and not technically legal probably), metadata is a mess aggregated by amateurs. The better options don't support Blu-ray menus (if you want that) the options that do support menus are terrible.

I'd love to have a Kaleidescape system in my home. I'd pay for one in a heartbeat, if the cost weren't so on par with other "major" purchases.
post #40 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

OK, I've got a couple comments.

Firstly as someone else mentioned, you can add a Vault (for $$$$) to be able to go "disc free".

Second, I see a lot of people saying you can just build an HTPC and storage for cheap, well that's true. Problem is the software relatively sucks. XBMC is pretty but doesn't offer native resolution switching and it's deinterlacing and scaling is terrible compared to a Lumagen.

I've had my DVDs and Blu-rays stored on my PCs for years, I've tried lots of solutions. I've never been entirely happy, there's lots of sacrifices to going that route. You give up some quality, ripping is somewhat a pain (and not technically legal probably), metadata is a mess aggregated by amateurs. The better options don't support Blu-ray menus (if you want that) the options that do support menus are terrible.

I'd love to have a Kaleidescape system in my home. I'd pay for one in a heartbeat, if the cost weren't so on par with other "major" purchases.

I don't know about you, but my set up has 0 quality loss. I rip the movies that I own (BD's and DVD's). I don't care about menus. All I want is the main movie. Picture and sound quality is excellent, and I love how Zappiti and Yadis jukeboxes look on my TV via Dune media players. Furthermore, ripping is simple and easy now that I know what I am doing. If you don't know what you are doing then it is complicated.
post #41 of 56

Jriver Media Center has a "view" within Theater View that it extremely similar to Kaleidescape's.  Now, I love my HTPC w/ Jriver Media Center setup, but  I would spring for this Kaleidescape system in a second IF:

 

1) There was no "disc in tray" requirement.  That defeats the purpose of ripping in the first place; and,
2) Storage was expandable beyond just one additional unit.  I'm currently using about 6TB worth of HD movies, HD trailers, and high resolution music and a BYOS (bring your own storage) approach would increase sales, in my opinion.

 

Those are my only two roadblocks.  Until then, Jriver (controlled by a harmony remote via USB IR receiver) does everything I could need for $50.  I think it's important for Kaleidescape to realize that this product offers casual-user features at an enthusiast price. The time to release this would have been after the verdict was in (hopefully assuming it will eliminate the disc-in-tray requirement).  The Kaleidescape Disc Vault is a $5.5k blu ray storage shelf; no thank you.

post #42 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by GusGus748s View Post

I don't know about you, but my set up has 0 quality loss. I rip the movies that I own (BD's and DVD's). I don't care about menus. All I want is the main movie. Picture and sound quality is excellent, and I love how Zappiti and Yadis jukeboxes look on my TV via Dune media players. Furthermore, ripping is simple and easy now that I know what I am doing. If you don't know what you are doing then it is complicated.

Well all my rips are lossless as well, problem for me comes on playback, I haven't found a "complete" playback solution. PCs aren't very good, Dunes are really close but lack a Source Direct option (for DVDs). Ripping isn't that complicated but licensing and legalities mean that there's nobody willing to "risk" making a truly robust solution, so we've got a hodgepodge of solutions.

It's quite frustrating, we're so close to having a real viable alternative to Kscape (with similar polish/quality) but nobody seems quite there. Dunes' are close but lack Source Direct, and XBMC is close but PCs are somewhat crappy for playback. Dune + XMBC + Source Direct might even be preferable to Kscape (even without considering cost)

/soapbox
The music "scene" is lightyears ahead of the video scene for the very simple reason that it's legal and doesn't require restrictive licensing to rip and manage CDs. There are tons of great commercial (and free) solutions for ripping and managing music, but the only truly complete legal system for movies is Kaleidescape and licensing and legalities are crippling them too.
/soapbox

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

Jriver Media Center has a "view" within Theater View that it extremely similar to Kaleidescape's.  Now, I love my HTPC w/ Jriver Media Center setup, but  I would spring for this Kaleidescape system in a second IF:

1) There was no "disc in tray" requirement.  That defeats the purpose of ripping in the first place; and,

2) Storage was expandable beyond just one additional unit.  I'm currently using about 6TB worth of HD movies, HD trailers, and high resolution music and a BYOS (bring your own storage) approach would increase sales, in my opinion.

Those are my only two roadblocks.  Until then, Jriver (controlled by a harmony remote via USB IR receiver) does everything I could need for $50.  I think it's important for Kaleidescape to realize that this product offers casual-user features at an enthusiast price. The time to release this would have been after the verdict was in (hopefully assuming it will eliminate the disc-in-tray requirement).  The Kaleidescape Disc Vault is a $5.5k blu ray storage shelf; no thank you.

Well they're never going to get around the disc in tray requirement (beyond the Vault which lets you have all your Blu-rays "in tray" at the same time) because that's what allows them to support Blu-ray without ongoing legal trouble like they have with DVD CCA. I have no philosophical problem with having to put my BDs in a "vault" to ensure I still have them after I rip them, but $5500 is just too much for that.
post #43 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post


Well all my rips are lossless as well, problem for me comes on playback, I haven't found a "complete" playback solution. PCs aren't very good, Dunes are really close but lack a Source Direct option (for DVDs). Ripping isn't that complicated but licensing and legalities mean that there's nobody willing to "risk" making a truly robust solution, so we've got a hodgepodge of solutions.

It's quite frustrating, we're so close to having a real viable alternative to Kscape (with similar polish/quality) but nobody seems quite there. Dunes' are close but lack Source Direct, and XBMC is close but PCs are somewhat crappy for playback. Dune + XMBC + Source Direct might even be preferable to Kscape (even without considering cost)
.

 

I'd say Jriver is pretty much there.  Here's a video I shot of Jriver a few months ago--it even has a "grid view" very similar to Kaleidescape (not in video)....plus it comes with file management options that are customizable to the heart's desires of the user.


Edited by BrolicBeast - 7/26/13 at 4:17am
post #44 of 56
OK, first off, sorry to derail the thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

I'd say Jriver is pretty much there.  Here's a video I shot of Jriver a few months ago--it even has a "grid view" very similar to Kaleidescape (not in video)....plus it comes with file management options that are customizable to the heart's desires of the user.

But it's still using a PC for playback, I'll take my Lumagen Radiance XE over a PC for video processing any day, but you really can't do that with a PC.
post #45 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

OK, first off, sorry to derail the thread.
But it's still using a PC for playback, I'll take my Lumagen Radiance XE over a PC for video processing any day, but you really can't do that with a PC.

I agree completely--my PC goes through a Lumagen Radiance processor. But I must also apologize for going off topic. Getting back on topic, I did some more reading on the Kaleidescape ecosystem since my above post......I'd be interested to see if Kaleidescape plans to eventually unlock additional storage options. I'd drop whatever they asked for their hard drives in a second if it meant having the ability to expand the Cinema One storage to accomodate my existing blu ray collection. 

post #46 of 56
Honestly I think they are marketing this all wrong.

The memory should be much more expandable for one.

But they should really be focusing on this device and others as being the premium player for their online digital media store that is of equal quality to bluray.

Sure allow it to play DVD/Bluray discs and rip them if possible...but that should not be the main focus.

Why do I say this?

1. you cannot legally rip your bluray discs right now...hence the "disc vaults". Yes these are great to have for the blurays that you already own but that should be a supplement for their digital marketplace.

2. How many of us would be willing to buy all of our movies digitally through them if they had the bluray quality? I know I would, especially if they had a database that kept movie titles linked to my account so that if I ever lost a movie I could always re-download them.

3. I am going to go out on a limb right now and bet that the majority of us have more DVDs than Bluray discs so having my DVDs stored digitally is much more important to me than the 30 or so blurays I own compared to the 300 DVDs.

Sure their market is mainly to the wealthy but they would be much more succesful if they had their own dedicated hardware like they do now but also had some sort of movie client where we could buy movies from them and save them on our own servers and play them back from a good quality HTPC or other devices. They could keep people buying their devices by simply "optimizing" them for their movie formats and automatic ripping abilities that they have.
post #47 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimeran View Post

2. How many of us would be willing to buy all of our movies digitally through them if they had the bluray quality? I know I would, especially if they had a database that kept movie titles linked to my account so that if I ever lost a movie I could always re-download them.

But what happens if Kscape goes out of business, then you're stuffed. That's probably the only good thing about UltraViolet, at least it's not entirely dependent on one company (that happens to be under constant legal assault from the industry they've based their business on).
Quote:
3. I am going to go out on a limb right now and bet that the majority of us have more DVDs than Bluray discs so having my DVDs stored digitally is much more important to me than the 30 or so blurays I own compared to the 300 DVDs.

True, except I'm much more likely to want to rewatch a Blu-ray than a DVD (since the stuff worth rewatching I've purchased on Blu-ray). I'm still stuck with it being $9500 to go "disc free" with a Cinema One system.
Quote:
Sure their market is mainly to the wealthy but they would be much more succesful if they had their own dedicated hardware like they do now but also had some sort of movie client where we could buy movies from them and save them on our own servers and play them back from a good quality HTPC or other devices. They could keep people buying their devices by simply "optimizing" them for their movie formats and automatic ripping abilities that they have.

FWIW, I think a potentially great move for Kaleidescape would be to "get out" of the disc ripping business all together. Just end support for ripping and discontinue providing storage external storage. Have the Cinema One support only downloaded movies on it's internal hard drive, but add support for reading BD formats off of Samba/NFS shares on the network. I mean I'd pay the $2k for one of their players if I could plug just that in and have it's software and hardware handle my media collection. Plus it could get them out of legal trouble if they don't support ripping anymore. (though in reality I know it's not that simple)
post #48 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

But what happens if Kscape goes out of business, then you're stuffed. That's probably the only good thing about UltraViolet, at least it's not entirely dependent on one company (that happens to be under constant legal assault from the industry they've based their business on).
True, except I'm much more likely to want to rewatch a Blu-ray than a DVD (since the stuff worth rewatching I've purchased on Blu-ray). I'm still stuck with it being $9500 to go "disc free" with a Cinema One system.
FWIW, I think a potentially great move for Kaleidescape would be to "get out" of the disc ripping business all together. Just end support for ripping and discontinue providing storage external storage. Have the Cinema One support only downloaded movies on it's internal hard drive, but add support for reading BD formats off of Samba/NFS shares on the network. I mean I'd pay the $2k for one of their players if I could plug just that in and have it's software and hardware handle my media collection. Plus it could get them out of legal trouble if they don't support ripping anymore. (though in reality I know it's not that simple)

True there is the risk of them going out of business but their biggest risk at the moment is the ripping. If I remember correctly, it is the ripping of blurays specifically that got them in hot water to begin with and that ripping a DVD is supposedly a non-issue. Heck, the reason I dont buy a single digital movie right now is the fact that I want my HD picture AND audio. Kscape is the only company offering that at the moment which is a huge advantage over other companies.

Maybe instead of Kscap tracking your purchases it would be better if something was worked out where Universal Studios, Disney, etc. kept track of them....but we all know that they more often they can have us pay to watch something the happier they are....which is the risk that something like that will not work....

I get what you are saying about watching blurays, I would be lying if I said that I dont go for my blurays more so than I do my DVDs but I have been grabbing alot of my older movies recently that I have not seen in a long time that are on DVD. I would probably watch them even more if I could see them all on the screen as I browsed my collection and stopped worrying about what definition it is in...

I agree about the ripping business. Right now I think that it is kind of a stepping stone though. You have to allow your customers to keep all the movies the currently own in order for them to accept y our product more easily. But they shouldnt be pushing it as a "ripping device" and more of just a feature to help fully integrate your movies into one single system.
post #49 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimeran View Post

True there is the risk of them going out of business but their biggest risk at the moment is the ripping.

Ripping is sort of an aside, I don't like a "purchase" of mine being tied to both hardware and a specific provider. With a Blu-ray Disc, it doesn't matter if the company that produced it goes under, I can "always" play it and if my player dies I can get another. Now this may just be me being uninformed about K's store, but I would expect that if K goes out of business and my Cinema One dies, I have no recourse.
Quote:
If I remember correctly, it is the ripping of blurays specifically that got them in hot water to begin with and that ripping a DVD is supposedly a non-issue. Heck, the reason I dont buy a single digital movie right now is the fact that I want my HD picture AND audio. Kscape is the only company offering that at the moment which is a huge advantage over other companies.

They were sued by DVD CCA for breach of licensing, for (I believe) allowing playback of a disc that was not in the player. I believe K interpreted the license agreement to not specify that the disc needed to be in the player while DVD CCA obviously did. AFIAK (and I haven't followed that closely) they are under no legal pressure from the BDA since they require the disc to be in the "player" (which includes the vault) allowing them to say the ripped copy is a "buffer".
Quote:
Maybe instead of Kscap tracking your purchases it would be better if something was worked out where Universal Studios, Disney, etc. kept track of them....but we all know that they more often they can have us pay to watch something the happier they are....which is the risk that something like that will not work....

Well there's UltraViolet, now if K were a UltraViolet provider* that would be another story, buy the Blu-ray and get a copy from the K-store via UV.

*OK, it looks like they're sort of linked, a disc you buy from K gets you a UV copy, but I think the other way around would be preferable, buy a disc and the UV copy can be downloaded form the K store.
bout what definition it is in...
Quote:
I agree about the ripping business. Right now I think that it is kind of a stepping stone though. You have to allow your customers to keep all the movies the currently own in order for them to accept y our product more easily. But they shouldnt be pushing it as a "ripping device" and more of just a feature to help fully integrate your movies into one single system.

Well discs are going away, only question is how soon. For me personally, the most interesting part of Kaleidescape is their player hardware/software and library functionality, if I could somehow get that without having to fork out $10-20k for storage and vaults, I'd be all over it, even if the player hardware/software is relatively expensive.
post #50 of 56
I was just going through their digital store and it looks like a good majority of their movies do indeed come with Ultraviolet copies. Which is nice....but I do still understand your worry if they ever go under.

We will just have to wait and see where the future goes.

I wont go to digital media until the purchase is safe and the quality is there. Only problem is then you are going to be running into the issues with data caps that ISPs are trying to implement to bleed more money from you.
post #51 of 56
KSCAPE will go out of business or at least be bought buy a major player. Too risky to get onto this ecosystem.
post #52 of 56
Actually ISP's are going to Tiered pricing just like cellular. To put it plainly, no caps but a cost per bandwidth.
post #53 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishniknork View Post

No, P.T. Barnum's. "There's a sucker born every minute". wink.gif

Actually, a misquote. That was from a competitor talking about what P.T. Barnum must think of his customers. biggrin.gif

Though, to the point... good God I think the company is only selling to those with more money in their bank accounts than good sense! And if you read about what a lot of powerful millionaires and billionaires actually think about various issues... there are a lot of potential clients for Kaleidescape. wink.gif
post #54 of 56
If they get their systems down in price some more I would look at them. I really like their interface...but the price is just stupid.
post #55 of 56
Here is the joke CINEMA ONE cost $3,999 there’s a catch to store your existing Blu-ray collection you need to add a DV700 Disc Vault which is basically a big carousel that holds 320 Blu-ray discs. The Disc Vault cost $5,495.

TOTAL COST = $9,494!!! They call this entry level smile.gif Sorry I posted this in an other post, AVS police please be kind smile.gif

Plus I own over 600 BLU RAY movies so I would need to go to the 3U system that brings me to $20,000 that is an additional 2,000 movies at $10 a piece smile.gif. I never watch DVDs any more so who cares, plus I am awaiting 4K
Edited by wse - 9/20/13 at 2:09pm
post #56 of 56
The requirement to use your existing discs in order to play a networked copy is outrageous. Blu-ray was originally supposed to have an encrypted copy once license option for perhaps a very small extra fee, so you could have a network backup for whole house distribution.
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