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help: time to upgrade and need suggestions.. led or plasma for upcoming ps4 :$

post #1 of 11
Thread Starter 
hey everyone, so i was directed to this forum because of the pro-ness going on here lol so currently i have 2 lcd tvs..samsung and lg but they're like 3-4 years old so i think it's time to upgrade..
I'd like a tv to go well with the upcoming playstation 4, and i'm at a loss because some people say go LED while a lot swear by plasma tvs..
my budget is about 1400 to lets say.. 2000 canadian/usd.

the one i was looking at is this..
http://www.lg.com/us/tvs/lg-55GA6400-led-tv
but i don't see many reviews for it.. its at amazon for 1399 while lg lists it at 1899.

basically i just need help finding a good tv for gaming and movies, i've never had one capable of 3d so maybe i'd like to try that lol.

any help is appreciated , thanks guys!
post #2 of 11
Thread Starter 
bump... wow really no one here can give a suggestion?
post #3 of 11
If it's for gaming, I would consider the Sony W802A which has the least input lag and best motion handling of any LCD TV.
I would not use a plasma for gaming due to image retention/burn-in.
post #4 of 11
Plasma is good as it is traditionally fast motion response, though with a bit of display lag. And it's often fine if you don't mind a slight display lag. But there are now LCD options that beats plasma motion resolution (brand new low-latency motion-resolution-enhancement techniques that do not use interpolation).

The W802A and a few other Sony TV's have a very gaming-friendly low-added-lag strobe backlight called Motionflow Impulse. It does not use interpolation, and there has been some good reviews by HTPC gamers and console gamers, as producing CRT-like motion clarity during video games. The new "Impulse" mode roughly quadruples the motion resolution in the Sony's, without needing to use interpolation; and "Impulse" mode produces less motion blur than a plasma display running in Game Mode. Which is impressive for an LCD. With Impulse, you can get about 4 times more motion resolution (75% less motion blur) with one of the Sony's such as the W802A, than with any LG or Samsung, since none of the competition provides a low-lag zero-interpolation motion clarity enhancing mode (yet), except in the computer monitor world (LightBoost) Also, you can turn off "Impulse" if you want even less display lag, too. Make sure you disable the ambient light sensor to get a brighter "Impulse".

Color and black levels is still won by plasma, but computers & gaming is nowadays a LCD/LED use case chiefly due to display lag -- and now you can beat the 60fps gaming motion clarity of plasma, too. Gamers who are picky about motion blur (and don't mind CRT-style flicker) will be very happy with W802A's new Impulse mode.
Edited by Mark Rejhon - 7/30/13 at 1:20pm
post #5 of 11
MotionFlow Impulse does have some negative aspects:

hdtvtest - http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-kdl-55hx853-46hx853-201206161860.htm?page=Performance
Quote:
MotionFlow Impulse completely eliminated perceived motion blur in many of our test clips, but some LCd panel blur (caused by pixel response time) remained. However, as the on-screen menu mentions, it produces flicker during bright scenes, which is likely to prove intolerable to almost all users. It did produce better motion clarity with all of the test sequences and content we tried it with, though.

hometheaterreview - http://hometheaterreview.com/sony-kdl-55hx850-ledlcd-hdtv/
Quote:
MotionFlow Impulse produces outstanding motion resolution but significantly dims the image and produces a subtle pulsing/flickering effect.
post #6 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon View Post

(and don't mind CRT-style flicker)
This is true, there is flicker, and that is why I warned about this. However, mainstream articles should bring a 60Hz CRT back in-house and use it as a reference for flicker. For the best experience, you want a dimmed room, not too dark, but just enough ambient light to balance things out. Most stores, convention centers, and office testing labs have often been very bright. The Impulse is still brighter than many projectors (especially if ambient sensor is off).

What a lot of the mainstream sites do not test for, is video-game compatible motion resolution improvements -- many of these review sites aren't aware that Motionflow Impulse is the first one that is low-lag enough to be included in Game Mode. (As experienced AVS readers, please do the world a big favour & remind the mainstream reviewers about this fact: There are no other low-lag motion resolution improvement techniques currently suitable for Game Mode. Impulse is one of the first one that really benefits games. Write the magazine, email the website, etc.)

In the long term, 120Hz cannot come soon enough. Also, this can possibly be slightly improved with new modes of operation (e.g. capacitor decay, etc) to help soften the flicker. Then this type of flicker of this motion-resolution-improving technique would not be a problem for most.
Edited by Mark Rejhon - 8/1/13 at 8:04am
post #7 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon View Post

Plasma is good as it is traditionally fast motion response, though with a bit of display lag. And it's often fine if you don't mind a slight display lag. But there are now LCD options that beats plasma motion resolution (brand new low-latency motion-resolution-enhancement techniques that do not use interpolation).

The W802A and a few other Sony TV's have a very gaming-friendly low-added-lag strobe backlight called Motionflow Impulse. It does not use interpolation, and there has been some good reviews by HTPC gamers and console gamers, as producing CRT-like motion clarity during video games. The new "Impulse" mode roughly quadruples the motion resolution in the Sony's, without needing to use interpolation; and "Impulse" mode produces less motion blur than a plasma display running in Game Mode. Which is impressive for an LCD. With Impulse, you can get about 4 times more motion resolution (75% less motion blur) with one of the Sony's such as the W802A, than with any LG or Samsung, since none of the competition provides a low-lag zero-interpolation motion clarity enhancing mode (yet), except in the computer monitor world (LightBoost) Also, you can turn off "Impulse" if you want even less display lag, too. Make sure you disable the ambient light sensor to get a brighter "Impulse".

Color and black levels is still won by plasma, but computers & gaming is nowadays a LCD/LED use case chiefly due to display lag -- and now you can beat the 60fps gaming motion clarity of plasma, too. Gamers who are picky about motion blur (and don't mind CRT-style flicker) will be very happy with W802A's new Impulse mode.

For me, LCD based technology has so many inherent flaws to it. Now, I am not a "professional" gamer, but I play games (both console and PC) on my Pioneer KRP-500m plasma in "Game Mode" (Game Pref. turned On) and I notice no input lag or significant drawbacks to it at all. And I don't think burn in is a real issue for a quality plasma anymore unless you are completely careless and leave a static image on screen for days at a time.

So as far as input lag is concerned, is a high quality plasma like a Kuro in its best mode for gaming really that much worse than a good LCD? I was under the impression that Game Mode on a Kuro basically eliminated input lag? At what point do we determine that very small differences are likely not perceptible to anyone except maybe a professional, competitive gamer?

As you mentioned, Color and Black levels are still superior on a plasma. This is not a small thing! The black levels and color on my KRP-500m are visibly noticable and stunning no matter what is displayed on the screen. No LCD could come close in the area of color and black level. I know that I haven't seen all the latest tech for gaming like LightBoost, but I remember gaming on a CRT monitor years ago and on my plasma in Game Mode, I don't see any significant difference and it is a big improvement over the LCD monitor I use on my computer.

I may be wrong here, but I always thought that a good plasma could more than hold its own in gaming vs any other technology? I would definitely appreciate some clarification here.
post #8 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrodefeld View Post

For me, LCD based technology has so many inherent flaws to it. Now, I am not a "professional" gamer, but I play games (both console and PC) on my Pioneer KRP-500m plasma in "Game Mode" (Game Pref. turned On) and I notice no input lag or significant drawbacks to it at all. And I don't think burn in is a real issue for a quality plasma anymore unless you are completely careless and leave a static image on screen for days at a time.

So as far as input lag is concerned, is a high quality plasma like a Kuro in its best mode for gaming really that much worse than a good LCD? I was under the impression that Game Mode on a Kuro basically eliminated input lag? At what point do we determine that very small differences are likely not perceptible to anyone except maybe a professional, competitive gamer?

As you mentioned, Color and Black levels are still superior on a plasma. This is not a small thing! The black levels and color on my KRP-500m are visibly noticable and stunning no matter what is displayed on the screen. No LCD could come close in the area of color and black level. I know that I haven't seen all the latest tech for gaming like LightBoost, but I remember gaming on a CRT monitor years ago and on my plasma in Game Mode, I don't see any significant difference and it is a big improvement over the LCD monitor I use on my computer.

I may be wrong here, but I always thought that a good plasma could more than hold its own in gaming vs any other technology? I would definitely appreciate some clarification here.

Well for starters, your kuro is among the worst plasmas as far as input lag goes with over 50ms of input lag in game mode. The kuro does however take the cake in picture quality. What matters is that your happy with it though, not numbers. The fastest sets that have ever come out are the w802a and w900a. Both are excellent but on the pricey side. You can get the amazing panasonic S60 plasma with around 30ms of input lag for much cheaper and get better overall picture quality. If you want the fastest display possible, then the w802a or w900a are the ones to look at. Another nice thing about these two sets is that even in game mode you can still adjust settings to make the picture look fantastic without introducing any added lag.
post #9 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrodefeld View Post

For me, LCD based technology has so many inherent flaws to it. Now, I am not a "professional" gamer, but I play games (both console and PC) on my Pioneer KRP-500m plasma in "Game Mode" (Game Pref. turned On) and I notice no input lag or significant drawbacks to it at all. And I don't think burn in is a real issue for a quality plasma anymore unless you are completely careless and leave a static image on screen for days at a time.
The Kuros have significant input lag, downsample chroma to 4:2:0, are susceptible to permanent burn-in, and have significant phosphor trailing. They are not good gaming displays.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrodefeld View Post

So as far as input lag is concerned, is a high quality plasma like a Kuro in its best mode for gaming really that much worse than a good LCD?
Significantly worse, and it is not about being competitive, it's about me pressing a button on the controller and waiting for the display to update with the action I just performed. If you try gaming with a mouse on one of these displays, there's a huge disconnect between when your arm moves, and the display shows that movement on-screen.

Here is a good demonstration of latency: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOvQCPLkPt4
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrodefeld View Post

I remember gaming on a CRT monitor years ago and on my plasma in Game Mode, I don't see any significant difference
I think you would be surprised now that you have spent some time with a Plasma and are used to that level of latency, if you went back to a CRT again.

That said, if you're just playing modern console games with a wireless controller, there's so much latency inherent to that setup, and you normally sit such a distance from the display, that latency matters far less than if you were playing a fast-paced PC game such as Counterstrike or Quake with a keyboard and mouse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrodefeld View Post

I may be wrong here, but I always thought that a good plasma could more than hold its own in gaming vs any other technology? I would definitely appreciate some clarification here.
Using the old measurement methods, the best plasmas were about 16-20ms latency. With the Leo Bodnar lag tester, which is far more accurate, those numbers are likely to be 30-40ms, which is on-par with the better LCD TVs in recent years. Recent plasmas have regressed and are now all 40ms or worse. The best LCD televisions today are now half that, and the best LCD monitors have single digit latencies.
post #10 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrodefeld View Post

I may be wrong here, but I always thought that a good plasma could more than hold its own in gaming vs any other technology? I would definitely appreciate some clarification here.
It depends on your gaming goals. Are you competing online with others? Are you playing fast games or slow games? How sensitive are you to color?, to motion blur?, or to lag? Everyone is different.

-- Lag is far less (e.g. 16ms for KDL55W802A versus 50ms for Kuro)
-- In newer LCD's, the blacks are now blacker than the movie theaters, which is often "good enough" for many. This is a edge towards plasma for space games, but can be nonissue for a lot of bright games
-- Color quality is on plasma's side for the most part, albiet not consistently for 100% of population
-- Some people prefer the LCD look over the plasma look, especially at close viewing distances (e.g. plasma banding, noise, etc)

The preference delta between plasma and LCD have narrowed greatly in recent years...
post #11 of 11
If gaming was my primary concern, I would have went with an LCD due to being able to get a lower input lag.

However, I'm also really interested in getting an amazing picture quality for movies. For the price, LCDs can't beat plasma.

I was very interested in the 60" Panasonic ST60 plasma, at $1500, but it has HORRIBLE input lag of about 73ms. Some aren't bothered by it, but if you're into the twitch-shooters, old-school games, or are sensitive to input lag, it's currently one of the worst. S64 from Sams/Costco has ~30ms lag, is a 2013 model, and has the anti-glare filter which is good for rooms with a bit of ambient lighting. S60 is the same panel, but without the filter. S60/S64 doesn't have 3D if that's something you're after, although honestly the 3D on the Panasonics appear to be reviewed as "mediocre" anyway. I ultimately purchased the ST50 which has ~40ms lag, far better than the ST60, still with great picture quality, and has 3D. Unfortunately, due to dwindling supply, I could only find it at $1501 or higher.

I can't comment on image retention or burn-in because I won't receive the set until the end of this week. However, what I've read has suggested it shouldn't really be a deal breaker or major problem.
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