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Pioneer Elite Voltages? - Page 8

post #211 of 373
Thread Starter 
As far as glow, does that mean it will be darker for a while when you first turn it on? Because I wondered why last night it suddenly seemed darker to me at one point and I think I had the tv off for a while before it.
post #212 of 373
No, that glow subsides within about 3 to 5 seconds of bootup. Hmm...this feels like deja vu.

In terms of not complaining about LCD flashlighting and MURA, I beg to differ. That was my biggest motivation for jumping on Pioneer plasma back in 2008.

How close is your mother standing to the screen when she complains of blurriness? There is dithering, but back up to a typical seating distance, and the appearance is all but mitigated.
post #213 of 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

No, that glow subsides within about 3 to 5 seconds of bootup. Hmm...this feels like deja vu.

In terms of not complaining about LCD flashlighting and MURA, I beg to differ. That was my biggest motivation for jumping on Pioneer plasma back in 2008.

How close is your mother standing to the screen when she complains of blurriness? There is dithering, but back up to a typical seating distance, and the appearance is all but mitigated.
A lot changes in 5 years...
post #214 of 373
Thread Starter 
I was wondering if dithering was what she meant also, but I don't think that's what she meant. Also she is sued to a smaller tv and farther distance.

And like I said if what I am seeing from my eyes is normal, then you can't say a plasma is better than the flashlighting and haloing as these elites look just as terrible in darkness. My vision sucks and so I can't see detail from much distance away and even I am noticing the horrible bars which means a normal person would be beyond distracted if even I am with my bad vision.

As I said, I may have to just sell both of them and forget elites and I dunno what I would do then. May have to go back to using my old LCD because health is more important than a tv and I am feeling discomfort day after day for years now with plasmas and leds. I think the only thing I bought that didn't seem to bother my head was an Epson 3d projector and those not only had too bad of black level (but hey, no worse than this elite probably), but also it's too hard to place a projector in a good place where I can be close or far and not block it.

Also, not sure what you mean about the subsiding within a few seconds. Stu was saying that when you have the tv on a long time the glow builds, basically.
post #215 of 373
Well, if that's what he's saying, he's wrong. A minimal glow is visible in a darkened room after the set is turned off, but the Kuros don't require extended warmups to reach their maximum black levels when actually being used.

Concerning MURA, I went through two Samsung LNT466F LCD panels via Amazon and was unhappy with the black levels. The Kuro floored me in comparison as to its uniformity and black levels. I also have a 2012 model Samsung Smart LED, which has a much more uniform backlight than that earlier Samsung LCD model...but it glows much brighter than the Kuro ever did. I have little understanding of what you're seeing, but I guess the rest of us (including the pro calibrators and reviewers) are just gulping down the crazy sauce.

Oly, do you find any modern LEDs suitable replacements for the Kuro in 2013 at a price point around $3k or under? The Sharp Elite came and went, as did the few Sony LEDs that are now discontinued.
Edited by vinnie97 - 10/22/13 at 9:29pm
post #216 of 373
Thread Starter 
In my opinion dark scenes in a dark room on these elites looks about the same as the LG 46lw5600 did. I have tried TONS of tvs, trust me, and of all of them, it reminds me of that level, and if you look it up you';ll see that model is supposedly 5-10 times as bright for minimum black level as the elite is supposed to be. I'm starting to wish I had just kept my hx929. It hurt my head even more than the elite, but at least it was pitch black on transitions due to leds being turned off and although it had a tiny bit of flashlighting in ONE corner, it still didn't distract me as much as this crappy LCD-like black level. And again, why is this tv not blowing me away if the ST50 did, if this is supposedly normal? The ST50 had reflections and was too glossy and still it impressed me more than this is. I find it hard to believe my vision would magically make me see brighter blacks in a 1 year period. And, again, that technician didn't even turn lights out or use equipment to measure black level. He did like most "experts" and just said something was great. It's sad that there are so few CHOICES. I was going to do a new paragraph here, but figured I would do a block of text since it's already one, anyway. But, anyway, there are no CHOICES. Want an OLED? Take 55 inches and go away. Want a 4K? take a 55 or 65 and that's all you geta choice of. Want ANY TV MODEL FROM ANY BRAND that is not UTTER CRAP? Take 50+ inches and that's all. No good 46. No good 42. No good 40. Heck the last good 40 was probably made 5 or more years ago. My relative wants to buy my old LCD for a few hundred and now I am probably keeping it due to all these other tvs hurting my head even worse.
post #217 of 373
Thread Starter 
It still baffles me that the guy on ebay doesn't lower his "new" 101fd price. WHo in the world is going to pay over $5k for a freakin 101fd when they could get a bigger zt60 for less than that? If he'd sell ti for $2k including shipping i'd maybe buy it and go tot he url that tells 101 hours to be sure he didn't lie, although I know people can BS that too by resetting hours. I already got screwed out of money by buying another "new" tv on ebay where the box was all beat up and may not have really been new. It was another case of it being a several years old tv supposedly unopened and this 101 is supposedly only opened to be sure it works.

Really, in my memory, about everything on the ST50 was better than my elites, though, so I should probably buy an ST60 and then just rarely use it where my head can be ok most days. Then use my crappy LCD other days. I don't know how else to stop my head issues and why keep an elite as a rarely used tv when it is so unimpressive? If I want to see bright bars, I can look at my old LCD.
post #218 of 373
It's the promise of that extra bit of black level performance in comparison to any other plasma that probably keeps the asking price so high.

PS. I made another clarification about the aforementioned glow in my last post. it should be unchanging once content is being fed to the set. It may fluctuate on input changing or HDMI handshakes but should subsequently (and immediately) return to baseline.
post #219 of 373
Thread Starter 
No he didn't say they needed to be warmed up for best black level. he was saying the phosphors glow more as time goes by, ie, worse black level, is what I understood him to be saying. All I can tell you is what I am seeing with my eyes is not "minimal glow". Whether I am for some reasons eeing something weirdly or not, I don't know, but that sure seems unlikely. Or maybe these ridiculous headaches day after day for YEARS have screwed my brain into nbot seeing properly. I wondered if something was making my pupils overly dilated in darkness for some reason... that/'s another possibility. Although, lately even with ambient light I see the horribly gray bars.

I wish Samsung or LG would be reading this and see it as a good opportunity to market their OLEDs by giving me a free one and then me raving about them.
post #220 of 373
....but there is no guarantee you'd be raving about those in a positive sense either. biggrin.gif

hmm, maybe that is what he meant, but I would think that's just due to (faulty) aging algorithms (i.e. the Panasonic 2009-2011 models were very noticeably afflicted with this)/a set that wasn't properly initialized at the manufacturing facility. It shouldn't be universal in any case.

Concerning your anatomy and pupil response, who knows. It would seem an ophthalmologist could evaluate for something like that. I would probably spend more time outdoors if TV gave me incessant headaches. tongue.gif
post #221 of 373
Exactly vinnie watching tv is obviously, not for you somelogin , and as for measuring black levels I can't see a tech doing that, a pro calibrator will
post #222 of 373
Thread Starter 
Then techs are stupid because they can't prove whether a tv is faulty or not if they don't measure anything. I se you both conveniently keep ignoring that I praised the ST50. So explain to me how, again, I am to picky with this one, yet praise a mdoel which supposedly has worse black elvels.

Also, can someone tell me how high up on the back of a tv I should put my bias light strip? It's unbelievable how hard it is to find info on search engines anymore. I usually have it high up on it, but seems like isntructions said put it near the bottom and I don't know where I put the isntructions. I just tape the strip on since I don't know yet which tv will be the final one.
post #223 of 373
Thread Starter 
Finally found it online and indeed it shows it near the bottom of the tv, which seems odd to me, since almost no light goes onto the wall above the tv and also the elite is made annoyingly where there is no straight across piece near the bottom which doesn't have ventilation holes. So it's strung across an area which nothing is at, ie stuck on on both sides, but nothing to attach to in the middle.
post #224 of 373
Sigh, I ignored it because I can't explain it, and it defies what we know about its black level performance versus the 111FD. Is that convenient enough for you?

I don't use bias lighting, but if I did, I would place it near the middle and point it directly towards the wall. If it was placed near the bottom, I imagine it would need to be angled at a 45-degree angle to attain the most even distribution of lighting.
Edited by vinnie97 - 10/22/13 at 11:48pm
post #225 of 373
I have lost the thread of the thread confused.gif

Anyway somelogin i tried replying to your pm yesterday, in fact i spent ten minutes writing it and as i pressed send my phone crashed mad.gif. So will try again later - didn't want you thinking i was being rude and ignoring it.

:thumbsup:
post #226 of 373
Thread Starter 
No problem. Thanks, Stu. You're always helpful (as Vinnie is, as well). Also, I could never count how many times that has happened to me.... And over the eyars I've sometimes written very VERY long ones, too, and had that happen.

Vinnie, well for some reason it says to put it near the bottom and actually when I glanced at the tv after doing it, it does seem even higher contrast than when I ahd it closer to the center or top. I would say it's easier on the eyes when light goes evenly around it, but the contrast seems better without light going above it. And as for the ST50, that's my point.... it should not impress me more than elites which means something is wrong, whether it be related to my vision or something wrong with the elites I have. As I've said, even if I get this sorted, they all hurt my head so bad and I just played a video game for hours sitting 3 feet from the tv so my head is really feeling exhausted.
post #227 of 373
I'm not the help you need, though, lol (look where it's got you). frown.gif That seems logical regarding the bias lighting. Any light illuminating below the TV won't be as visible if placed on a stand.
post #228 of 373
Thread Starter 
It's visible due to my setup though, but I'll just tinker and see what I like.

I am honestly just not knowing what to think or do anymore. This morning the blacks seemed deeper again (in mixed material with bias lighting). No clue why. Like on one of those tbs logos on commercials it looked closer to true black, whereas usually I am not even thinking mixed material blacks look black. I still didn't think it was "inky" though. But my vision may influence that somewhat because for a lot of the 2011 sonys (I bought like 4 or 5 models from that same yaer,a ll said to have inky blacks!) sometimes I would think blacks were inky and sometimes they didn't seem inky at all.

I still think there's a big problem and the minimum black level is at least triple or more worse than it's supposed to be, though. I even thought of asking d-nice if I could SEND him the tv to calibrate and him send it back. But that's really "out there" in options, also the more it's shipped the more you risk accidents, and then the contrast would be wrong for my lighting so I would then have to get controlCAL and fine tune that, most likely. My family all think it's a waste of money getting calibrations, which I go back and forth on, but in this case, if he can improve black level much, I really want to figure out how I can get him to do it.
post #229 of 373
Still going to reply somelogin but will be waiting until home on pc tomorrow as this phone/network ain't too clever at moment as network are going through mast upgrades locally atm.

I am starting to think that as well as the red tint issues out there - that in fact there is more than widely spread some sort of rising mll issue on some Pioneers through all models - not to the severity or extent of Panasonic 3 or 4 years ago. But more than originally thought.

But so slight that people who have bought from new haven't noticed as it has been extremely gradual over the years or thousands of hours. Hence why they say (the people you bought from) insist it has remained inky black (to them).

If it was me buying second hand today (i did with my 500M recently but less than 25hrs on it so that doesn't really count as such)... But if i did now, and having been used to my recently reverted to stock levels mll on my recently sold 500A - well only in a dark room, i would of course spot within the minute or before i'm sure if it wasn't correct after after adjusting setting's to what should be the Kuro's mll.


Did you ever see a brand new Kuro 9G years back ? - particularly in a darkened demo room or similar
Edited by Stu03 - 10/24/13 at 4:10am
post #230 of 373
Thread Starter 
No. Sadly, I wasn't looking for a tv when it was released, so didn't even pay much attention to tvs then. I bet my dad happened to come across one, but wouldn't have looked much at plasmas.

Basically, I'm about tot he point where I have to give up finding another one unless one comes up which is a good deal and I can somehow tell it's proper. I didn't PLAN on spending so much on this second one. I only planned on getting one for around $1,000, but I got my hopes up that this second one would be so magical. lol

I have tp spend more time and concern with how even these elites hurt my head so much. That is my main problem to figure out. frown.gif I may never have another tv that doesn't hurt my head and really now even going back to my old LCD would hurt it somewhat. And no doctors knew any reason for it. Just now I watched two movies in darkness other than the bias lighting and it tore my head all up by the end. But when I turned a lot of light back on after watching them, it feels a little better. So, as I figured all along, it's related in some ay to light and maybe because I spent years watching vivid LCD settings. I think my head eneds a brighter picture, too.

Now I'll see how my head is doing over the next day because USUALLY it will NEVER heal. Let's say I decided to not look at any screen now. I would have to go DAYS and maybe even a week before it would heal itself. It's not just hurting WHILE watching movies. It does something which won't heal. I kept the elite because it bothers it LESS than the Panasonic, but it still bothers me a ton. The ST50 just crushed my head so bad I couldn't even make it through one movie without my head making me feel horrible.

Anyway, so I just have to consider the black level not so important, but really I may end up trying the voltage tweaks because whether it hurts my head or not, I still want the picture at its best for when I do watch it. But buying tv after tv will do no good. So I guess I just can't risk another purchase unless somehow I can see in person, but even then it could be fine at firast and then the level rise like these others!

Unbelievable it's been this much trouble just to get a tv. Tons of suffering and then the black level issue. lol

I forget if I posted this publicly, but a calibrator told me he tried the voltage tweaks after he read the service manual and it did not change the customer's red tint issue whatsoever. So I am still not so hopeful.
post #231 of 373
You won't get a brighter image in a tv (plasma) than the F8500, followed by the Kuro's. These according to cnet are the only plasma tv's that they have tested ABLe smile.gif to hold brightness on a white screen or brightest scenes

http://forums.cnet.com/7723-19410_102-593287/minimizing-impact-of-automatic-brightness-limiter-on-plasma/

Depends on what you like/need i suppose
post #232 of 373
Thread Starter 
yeah I know. I can definitely tell brightness and whites in general can go higher on this than Panasonics and I know about he Samsung, but there are problems with every tv type that bothers my head, whether it be flicker, not bright enough, or whatever other reasons. I honestly don't even KNOW all the reasons. It's horrible though. It's a persistent uncomfortable feeling in my head. And it may be that I always watched 40 or less inches and now went up to 50, but you can't GET a good 40 inch or even 46 inch anymore in the US.
post #233 of 373
Thread Starter 
Now I am back to trying the second one again in case it being calibrated has any effect good or bad on my head. I may have imagined it, but at one point I thought it may be easier on my head for whatever reason. At least now it "seems" most of the smell is gone, which means the box may have eben what caused that. To m, ikist to the naked eye, it seems that it's not calibrated properly, though, as colors didn't seem quite right.
post #234 of 373
Man you certainly have a dilemma smile.gif

Llet's keep fingers crossed Pioneer come back and make OLED (or if that's unlikely use their engineering prowess for building the best components and processing available for an OLED panel even if it wasn't their own.

Now that would be very cool - and you're mll "worries" would be cured

wink.gif
post #235 of 373
Thread Starter 
I just want my head to stop hurting. Never had any big problem with my head with tvs in the past, then a couple eyars ago I wanted NOTHING othr than to get a great new tv and suddenly all this crap happened.

I've only had the second 111 back on my main stand for a few minutes now and I immediately noticed the picture is better due to the calibration. And I really think it's easier on my head, but I may be imagining that part due to some psychological weirdness. lol I've only had it hooked upa few minutes, so I'll know in a day or so if it's any different on my head. Reason I thought it could be is because I am pretty sure the guy who did the settings on tv #1 did not use advance for motion and I would think the professional for set #2 would have used that setting and I think advance MAY be better on my head due to a higher refresh rate (of sorts). See I am so stressed over this here I am analyzing every possibility....

Now the problem is if I want to keep tv #2 I have to try to sell tv #1 with one hdmi input not working. Or if I sell set #2 I have to keep the one that isn't calibrated. I would rather keep set #2 if I can get over $1,000 for set #1, which has a warranty so probably could.
post #236 of 373
Thread Starter 
yeah, there's no comparison. This second one has wayyyyyy more of a 3D feel to the picture. If I knew for sure calibrating the first one would cause that one to look this 3D, as well, I would likely keep that one and get it calibrated, which is better than having one calibrated for another person. But then if I sell this one and calibrating my first one doesn't make it look this way, I would be mad I sold the second one. the only problem with keeping this one is it seems a bit washed out, such as maybe too high of a brightness setting. I could get controlCAL and tinker with it and see if I could get it right, but just saying if I knew my first one could get this 3D, it would obviously be best to get a true for myself calibration.
post #237 of 373
Thread Starter 
I didn't look closely, but it "seemed" that even pure mode, only using d-nice settings, looked more 3D than my pure mode on my tv.... so again I wonder if something is wrong with my first one and that if I sell the second one and get the first one calibrated if I will be screwing myself by it still not looking as 3D.
post #238 of 373
Somelogin -

I've been reading this thread all morning and must say that I'm in your corner regarding this whole mess you're in. Seems like you're stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to realistic decisions here.

I definitely think it's a voltage issue so having an unknown service repair man or calibrator OTHER than D-Nice out would most likely be a waste of your time and money...

Here's what I'm thinking - since you now own 2 Elites and since you seem to be favoring the 2nd one, why not experiment with the 1st tv by tinkering in the service menu, in particular, the voltage settings? Once you get in there, take a picture or write down the initial settings before you begin tweaking this way you always have the option to put everything back the way it was - "if" you're unable to achieve the results you want. I know I'm beating a dead horse here but if you go to the red tint threads, there is a step by step voltage tweaking guide. It tells you which voltages to tweak (as there are several) as well as what values you need to raise or lower them to...

Secondly, I understand your second Elite smelled like URINE upon arrival?! I think I might have a logical explanation for this... ROACHES! I used to work for TW Cable back in the day and learned very quickly just how much roaches loved to nest in electronics such as modems, DVR's, cable boxes and yes, even TV's. They like to lay eggs and defecate in there and it smells just like urine. If your 2nd Elite is indeed a roach motel, it will also have physical evidence of this. Grab a flashlight and look inside every single vent on the back and if you see what looks like tiny grains (the size of fine sand) that resemble coffee grounds or termite deposit, then you have a roach infestation. That can EASILY be grounds for getting your money back from Fleabay or Paypowl as roach infestations can be considered a real health concern - especially if you're constantly breathing that crap (no pun intended) in! If you don't have a roach problem then who knows what it could be? Maybe the cardboard packaging got wet at one point, perhaps a cat peed on the tv... That's what sucks about buying blindly through fleabay, I've been there done that. Hell, I'm still pissed off at a watch purchase I made years ago but I filed a complaint and got my money back albeit 45 days later!

Anyhow, the last thing I wanted to mention is this: you have one other option for buying a used Elite. Drum roll please..... Craig$ Li$t! I purchased one of my Kuro's this way. I was actually able to go to the sellers house and look the set over for cosmetic defects but most importantly, I was able to test outputs/inputs, check PQ and sound and the guy even let me bring my blu-ray and a few dvd's at night - all before handing over the envelope full of my hard earned cash. Hell, you can even sell on the above website to avoid costly shipping charges!

Just my 2 cents for now. I'm here to help any way I can


-James
post #239 of 373
I'm sure he's considered Craiglist, even used it. My educated guess and flimsy recollection is the times he's checked, there were none for sale in geographic proximity. Periodic checks are always a good bet of course. I like to use http://www.searchtempest.com
post #240 of 373
Thread Starter 
yeah I've looked on there before and never noticed one. and I sure hope it's not roaches.... ALl I know is I barely smell anything on the tv now. The inner box it was in still smells VERY strong. SO I dunno, I guess it was something in the box. As for the other, I hate to sink more and more money in, such as around $100 for what I need to do the voltage changes, but I will likely try it. Also, as I mentioned, another calibrator here read the service manual and tried changing voltages and couldn't fix someone's red tint problem, but at least he's open to trying it.

I am much more concerned with my head now than finding a proper elite, though. this is HORRIBLE. Years of it. I have to keep tapping on my head over and over trying to relieve pressure that watching the tv causes and like I said, if I stop watching tv altogether for days it still doesn't go away. I think in the past I had to use my old LCD for a week or two before finally my head would go back to normal.
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