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Ultra-D is Glasses-Free 3D for UHDTV, Coming This Year - Page 3

post #61 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post

That analogy may not be a good one...
There is a Company that has been developing a flying car. They are losing money but I believe they actually had it flying.
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2012-02/20/moller-unveils-two-new-flying-cars

Yes, I know about that car.

And I'm expecting my holographic projector around the same time those flying cars come into common availability and use. Prototype designs for a new technology typically mean little in terms of what actually comes to market and when.
post #62 of 106
This is great, and I am thrilled it's coming from hisense because I feel that will put it in my price range relatively quickly.

My question is how does this effect the 2D UHD? From what I am readin this film is like a FPR on passive displays... it does something to to what pixels can be viewed under what circumstances... however unlike an FPR you cannot turn it off (well with FPR you don't wear glasses which is like turning it off) so with this tech that cricumstance is "always" vs FPR which is "when glasses are on".

So while watching 3D, each eye sees a full 1080p image, and there are 2 1080p images per frame on a BR so you see everything.

But with UHD 2D each eye will still only be seeing half the total pixels on the screen as the filter will still be in place right?

So won't this effectively reduce the number of pixels seen in 2D to half? Still twice as many as current 1080p display but only half as many as an otherwise "normal" 2D UHD display?
post #63 of 106
So when will this be in an 80"+ OLED and the price under $5,000? biggrin.gif
post #64 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devedander View Post

This is great, and I am thrilled it's coming from hisense because I feel that will put it in my price range relatively quickly.

My question is how does this effect the 2D UHD? From what I am readin this film is like a FPR on passive displays... it does something to to what pixels can be viewed under what circumstances... however unlike an FPR you cannot turn it off (well with FPR you don't wear glasses which is like turning it off) so with this tech that cricumstance is "always" vs FPR which is "when glasses are on".

So while watching 3D, each eye sees a full 1080p image, and there are 2 1080p images per frame on a BR so you see everything.

But with UHD 2D each eye will still only be seeing half the total pixels on the screen as the filter will still be in place right?

So won't this effectively reduce the number of pixels seen in 2D to half? Still twice as many as current 1080p display but only half as many as an otherwise "normal" 2D UHD display?

another point of interest for me as well. as I will not sacrifice any decrease in 2D performance for anything to do with 3D. 2D is 100% of my concern. 3D performance ranks in importance right behind whether the power indicator is on when the tv is 'on' or in 'standby', as it's kind of annoying having a red light on the front bezel while watching in the dark cool.gif
post #65 of 106
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

another point of interest for me as well. as I will not sacrifice any decrease in 2D performance for anything to do with 3D. 2D is 100% of my concern. 3D performance ranks in importance right behind whether the power indicator is on when the tv is 'on' or in 'standby', as it's kind of annoying having a red light on the front bezel while watching in the dark cool.gif

There will be plenty of other options for people who feel the way you do. Clearly a TV like the one Leo showed me is going to appeal to folks who like 3D.
post #66 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

another point of interest for me as well. as I will not sacrifice any decrease in 2D performance for anything to do with 3D. 2D is 100% of my concern. 3D performance ranks in importance right behind whether the power indicator is on when the tv is 'on' or in 'standby', as it's kind of annoying having a red light on the front bezel while watching in the dark cool.gif

I used to just put a small piece of electrical tape over the light.
post #67 of 106
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devedander View Post

This is great, and I am thrilled it's coming from hisense because I feel that will put it in my price range relatively quickly.

My question is how does this effect the 2D UHD? From what I am readin this film is like a FPR on passive displays... it does something to to what pixels can be viewed under what circumstances... however unlike an FPR you cannot turn it off (well with FPR you don't wear glasses which is like turning it off) so with this tech that cricumstance is "always" vs FPR which is "when glasses are on".

So while watching 3D, each eye sees a full 1080p image, and there are 2 1080p images per frame on a BR so you see everything.

But with UHD 2D each eye will still only be seeing half the total pixels on the screen as the filter will still be in place right?

So won't this effectively reduce the number of pixels seen in 2D to half? Still twice as many as current 1080p display but only half as many as an otherwise "normal" 2D UHD display?

Working on an answer... stay tuned.
post #68 of 106
Fantabulous! I personally like glasses 3D, but no one in their right mind wouldn't rather do without (enough double negatives for ya?) Anyone who dislikes 3D usually states its the glasses. Looks like ESPN 3D is going to have a "Redux"! Super excited...bring on the technology!
post #69 of 106
This is great news. I never considered a 3D TV because of the glasses. I can't stand wearing glasses. I even get annoyed wearing shades on a sunny day. This is what I've been waiting for, just didn't think it'd be here this quick. I'll probably get the smallest they got for the bedroom. Other two rooms have Kuro Elites so I don't want to mess with those. I'll just replace the old Sony
post #70 of 106
They must have improved the tech quite a lot sine CES 2013 because on both CES 2011, CES 2012 and 2013 their demo sucks big time and there was no improvement between the three years. Unfortunately due to their lack of track record, I'd have to see it at CES 2014 to judge it for myself.
post #71 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Leo said that glasses-free front projection basically requires a holographic display to work, and that they are working on it. I'm guessing that means no screen, but he offered no details beyond that. Since there have been examples of on-stage holograms at concerts, it doesn't seem impossible.

Those are not true holograms. The images are projected to a sheet of clear plexiglass (pepper's ghost effect)
post #72 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post

That analogy may not be a good one...
There is a Company that has been developing a flying car. They are losing money but I believe they actually had it flying.
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2012-02/20/moller-unveils-two-new-flying-cars
Actually, it's a good analogy.

We've had flying cars for decades. Museums are full of failed attempts at making and selling them.


The problem is, there's little chance we'll be using them like they do in the "Jetsons", "Back to the Future II" or "The Fifth Element". People suck at driving on the ground. There's no way you'll be able to fly around like we drive around now. That's all we need is minor fender benders to become fatalities when cars come crashing to the ground, killing the occupants and anyone the vehicles land on.

Flying require far too much skill, attention and proper vehicle maintenance to allow just anyone to have that kind of access. Even if they're pretty much automated, people will still find ways to do stupid things or fail to keep their vehicle safe to operate.

Even if the cost comes down to where many can own them, the licensing and inspection processes (plus regulations against simply taking off and landing just anywhere) will keep them out of the hands of everyone but a select few - just like airplanes.
Edited by NetworkTV - 8/10/13 at 9:30pm
post #73 of 106
These sets are obviously aimed at people who want to watch glasses less 3D. But as far as 4K non 3D, it's 2K to each eye resulting in, like the much debated 3D passive, a combined 4K image in the brain. This actually results in 4K 3D for the upcoming 4K standard I would assume, just like the theater. If you want to see 4K 3D, see "Smurfs 2 3D". The PQ is stunning.
Edited by Bill - 8/10/13 at 11:41pm
post #74 of 106
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill View Post

These sets are obviously aimed at people who want to watch glasses less 3D. But as far as 4K non 3D, it's 2K to each eye resulting in, like the much debated 3D passive, a combined 4K image in the brain. This actually results in 4K 3D for the upcoming 4K standard I would assume, just like the theater. If you want to see 4K 3D, see "Smurfs 2 3D". The PQ is stunning.

Fascinating, how quickly the debate can switch from "you can't see the added detail in UHD vs. HD" to "glasses-free 3D on a UHDTV results in a loss of resolution." One of the great things about UHD, is that there is more than one way to use a pixel.
post #75 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Fascinating, how quickly the debate can switch from "you can't see the added detail in UHD vs. HD" to "glasses-free 3D on a UHDTV results in a loss of resolution." One of the great things about UHD, is that there is more than one way to use a pixel.
Higher resolution displays will always have to deal with the "loss of half the visual resolution" for glasses-free 3D and passive 3D displays and probably always will. The fact will always remain that only half of whatever resolution the display will be able to render will be needed for one of the two simultaneous images that allows glasses-free and passive 3D alternatives. Also, IMO, full UHD detail when viewed at customary distances and @ current display sizes for 2D will not be very useful, with the obvious exception of large screen projection. Only HMDs will potentially be able to take advantage of full UHD resolution for each eye for both 2D and 3D.
Edited by Paul H - 8/11/13 at 10:51am
post #76 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

There will be plenty of other options for people who feel the way you do. Clearly a TV like the one Leo showed me is going to appeal to folks who like 3D.

maybe, but show me ONE high end 2D only plasma on the market today...
i'm sure the marketing push behind glasses free 3D will be that you can use it all the time. i'm not sure the videophile has any impact on the market anymore these days. and how confusing will it be to the public if a manufacturer charges the same amount, or more, for 'only' a 2D television.

i bet you if you took a vt60 and stripped it of 3D and an ST60 and asked the general population which tv was better, most of them would go with the st60 because it has 3D
post #77 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Fascinating, how quickly the debate can switch from "you can't see the added detail in UHD vs. HD" to "glasses-free 3D on a UHDTV results in a loss of resolution." One of the great things about UHD, is that there is more than one way to use a pixel.

that's a good point. i can only speak for myself, and my concern is that this will obviously raise the price considerably, and compared to a 1080p display, the 2D picture quality won't be much(any) better. it's all speculation of course, maybe these failing tv manufacturers will find a way to produce separate 2D and 3D lines, but considering the apparent failure of plasma in general, i don't have high hopes that having the 'best picture quality' is enough to sell tv's to the general public. and if they won't buy it, it won't get made for long. and it'll be a shame if i'm forced to choose between entry level garbage models and ultra expensive 3D models.
post #78 of 106
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

maybe, but show me ONE high end 2D only plasma on the market today...
i'm sure the marketing push behind glasses free 3D will be that you can use it all the time. i'm not sure the videophile has any impact on the market anymore these days. and how confusing will it be to the public if a manufacturer charges the same amount, or more, for 'only' a 2D television.

i bet you if you took a vt60 and stripped it of 3D and an ST60 and asked the general population which tv was better, most of them would go with the st60 because it has 3D

A plasma that features active 3D is the same thing as a 2D panel; it has almost nothing to do with the screen, all that's needed is a sufficient refresh rate and a way to sync the shutter in the glasses. That's why it's included as a "feature" on high-end plasma units.
post #79 of 106
Oh wow this sounds AMAZING, I can't wait!
post #80 of 106
This does sound amazing! I hadn't planned on upgrading to UHD anytime soon because I have a front projection 3d setup with DLP which means ghosting and cross talk free 3d! UHD projectors cost as much as a new midsized car so I didn't see myself upgrading until there was a standard and content out....but this might make me make the jump...for my bedroom tv...I wasn't concerned with 3d in the bedroom because of the crosstalk and ghosting problems tvs have...but if this is really as clear as reported....and if the effects really are that convincing...then I may have to jump on it...I hope they are traveling. I would love to see this in person!
post #81 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

A plasma that features active 3D is the same thing as a 2D panel; it has almost nothing to do with the screen, all that's needed is a sufficient refresh rate and a way to sync the shutter in the glasses. That's why it's included as a "feature" on high-end plasma units.

that's with glasses. with the glasses free tv, by the way i'm reading things, 2D performance would be like viewing one eye only, and cuts the resolution in half.

now i'll agree, that on a tv sized screen, UHD is overkill anyway, and it's only real benefit might be that passive 3D (or glasses free 3D) can still be done at full 1080p. but I still speculate that it's unlikely for a company to release a 2D and 3D version of their flagship TV's. if they can figure out a way to produce 2D 'normally' on these glasses free units, then no big deal. it still kinda sucks, but it's not that big of a deal to spend an extra 100 or 200bux for a 'feature' I won't use. what worries me is if that 'feature' affects the 2D quality in any negative way, i'll be paying more for less.

I guess, basically as long as 2D is the 'default' that the tv is designed for, and 3D remains as added feature. it's something I can deal with. but if they make 3D the 'default' mode and are forced to reduce resolution or something to display 2D then I can't support that.
post #82 of 106
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

that's with glasses. with the glasses free tv, by the way i'm reading things, 2D performance would be like viewing one eye only, and cuts the resolution in half.

now i'll agree, that on a tv sized screen, UHD is overkill anyway, and it's only real benefit might be that passive 3D (or glasses free 3D) can still be done at full 1080p. but I still speculate that it's unlikely for a company to release a 2D and 3D version of their flagship TV's. if they can figure out a way to produce 2D 'normally' on these glasses free units, then no big deal. it still kinda sucks, but it's not that big of a deal to spend an extra 100 or 200bux for a 'feature' I won't use. what worries me is if that 'feature' affects the 2D quality in any negative way, i'll be paying more for less.

I guess, basically as long as 2D is the 'default' that the tv is designed for, and 3D remains as added feature. it's something I can deal with. but if they make 3D the 'default' mode and are forced to reduce resolution or something to display 2D then I can't support that.

Which is why it would be a product for 3D fiends, whereas other TVs would only offer 3D as an "extra." Either way, until you see one it's probably best to reserve judgement.
post #83 of 106
Fantastic!
post #84 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

They must have improved the tech quite a lot sine CES 2013 because on both CES 2011, CES 2012 and 2013 their demo sucks big time and there was no improvement between the three years. Unfortunately due to their lack of track record, I'd have to see it at CES 2014 to judge it for myself.

While we did see Ultra-D demos at CES for the past several years, I wouldn't say the demos sucked. Each year their technology got better and each year their glasses free 3D was, IMO, best of show in that category.

In My opinion, this technology, even in 2013, CES demos was not ready to replace present 3D TV's. The images did look to be lower resolution than typical 2K and especially 4K competitors. But the 3D effects were quite good. Of particular interest was the use of 3D for advertising. When you walk into a room the 3D images came out and grabbed your attention, made you look, like seeing a naked woman in a poster. But as far as a form of entertainment, even a sporting event at a sports bar, not so much. In addition, their latest models as of January 2013 were quite thick, and heavy. The electronic technology involved was quite complex.

I shot some video of these sets at CES 2012 and CES 2013. Please note I tried but could not achieve a good video recording of the 3D quality, even with my 3D camcorder like I can using a special filter and shooting passive 3D TV's

2012- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2f-POXbhw8&list=TLdlGPAs-JJ4s
2013-
For comparison here is a sample video I shot of passive 4K 3DTV at the CES2013:
Note- these all require 3D Real 3D type glasses and this YouTube video requires red/cyan glasses on your 2D computer screen or if you can send to your passive 3D TV you can set the 3D mode to SBS Half to view as well.
Edited by Don Landis - 8/12/13 at 1:27am
post #85 of 106
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

While we did see Ultra-D demos at CES for the past several years, I wouldn't say the demos sucked. Each year their technology got better and each year their glasses free 3D was, IMO, best of show in that category.

In My opinion, this technology, even in 2013, CES demos was not ready to replace present 3D TV's. The images did look to be lower resolution than typical 2K and especially 4K competitors. But the 3D effects were quite good. Of particular interest was the use of 3D for advertising. When you walk into a room the 3D images came out and grabbed your attention, made you look, like seeing a naked woman in a poster. But as far as a form of entertainment, even a sporting event at a sports bar, not so much. In addition, their latest models as of January 2013 were quite thick, and heavy. The electronic technology involved was quite complex.

I shot some video of these sets at CES 2012 and CES 2013. Please note I tried but could not achieve a good video recording of the 3D quality, even with my 3D camcorder like I can using a special filter and shooting passive 3D TV's

2012- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2f-POXbhw8&list=TLdlGPAs-JJ4s
2013-
For comparison here is a sample video I shot of passive 4K 3DTV at the CES2013:
Note- these all require 3D Real 3D type glasses and this YouTube video requires red/cyan glasses on your 2D computer screen or if you can send to your passive 3D TV you can set the 3D mode to SBS Half to view as well.

Don, that's why I wrote this article. The Ultra-D panel I saw at CE Week in NYC over the summer—the same one seen at CES 2013—look dull and "experimental." whereas the UHD pre-production unit, which I was lucky to be one of the first people to see, was truly impressive.

The technology is where is should be for a 2013 debut, it just wasn't ready until a few weeks ago.
Edited by imagic - 8/12/13 at 10:40am
post #86 of 106
I've been monitoring autostereoscopic technology myself for over 10 years, including earlier incarnations of UltraD. Having recently written an article for the trade publication P3 Update on the new autostereoscopic technology from Dolby and Philips (http://p3update.com/news/technology-news/2753-dolby-and-philips-introduce-glasses-free-3d), I wonder if this is competing or complementary technology. From the descriptions in the article, it sounds like the latter.

Either way, I look forward to seeing them in a couple of months at the 3D Entertainment Expo here in Los Angeles and at CES in January. I'm a big fan of 3D and think that once consumers can get good quality glasses free displays at a price close to what they'd otherwise pay for a 2D display, it could revive interest in the format.
post #87 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Do you believe that 3D has a future in home entertainment? I do, thanks to a demonstration I recently witnessed at the U.S. headquarters of Stream TV Networks, located in Philadelphia, PA. In the back of a nondescript, third-floor office, I saw high-definition, glasses-free 3D—dubbed Ultra-D—on a big screen, and it looked great. In fact, the 3D screen I previewed looked fantastic—good enough to give me goose bumps during a 3D demonstration of Life of Pi.



Leo Riley, the VP of Stream TV, gave a full demonstration of the product, which is now at the pre-production stage. Stream TV created a proprietary system for autostereoscopic 3D viewing—that means glasses-free 3D. The panel itself was a 50" LED-backlit LCD UHDTV from Chinese maker Hisense, a pre-production unit that offered a glimpse of a product that should be on store shelves in the fourth quarter of 2013. Riley was keen to note that Hisense prices its products very aggressively, and the final retail pricing of the new UHDTVs will reflect that. Expect a 50", 58", and 65" model sporting the new technology.

One of the most exciting features of Ultra-D is how the technology is screen-agnostic. What makes it work is the abundance of pixels that UHD panels provide, which is why Ultra-D equipped TVs will be available soon, now that UHDTVs are gaining in popularity and prices are dropping. There was even mention of a 31" UHD Ultra-D computer monitor that is almost ready. I plan to re-visit the Stream TV Networks office when that screen arrives.

If the future brings UHD OLED to market, Ultra-D will work with this technology—albeit at OLED prices. All this talk of tablets and TVs and technology led me to ask Riley, "What about projectors, could this ever work for a projector-based home theater?" His response—Stream TV Networks plans to tackle holographic display, which is where all display technology is ultimately heading.

The future plans and applications for Ultra-D technology was interesting enough, but what happened next was more profound. I went from "interested" to "believer" in no time flat—just a few minutes watching a UHD Ultra-D TV demo was enough to erase any skepticism. Upon seeing a demo of Avengers, my first comment was, "If this is how 3D was, I’d watch 3D all the time."

As impressive as the image looked, I noticed a few glitches in the 3D rendition while watching some complex action in the final battle scene of The Avengers. It was just a tiny bit of fuzziness here and there, which I figured was acceptable considering how great the overall presentation looked.

That's when Riley dropped the bomb! We had not been watching The Avengers in 3D. The Ultra-D system was doing its own real-time 3D conversion of the movie, and it was doing a great job—clearly better than other 2D-to-3D converters I've seen in the past. Then, he switched the movie over to actual 3D, and suddenly the performance was perfect. Rock-solid, true 3D that I could simply see with no weirdness at all. Another aspect of the presentation that totally blew me away was the brightness. The late Roger Ebert would often lament that 3D meant watching a dim movie. I wish the man had lived to see Ultra-D, because it is a revelation—exactly as bright and vibrant as a 2D presentation.

I could not get any tech-spec details about the panel itself, except that it was not edge-lit LCD, but rather backlit. I think that approach really helped with the overall image quality—the range from black to white was very impressive, and uniformity was notably exceptional. With Ultra-D, any sort of artifacts associated with edge-lit UHDTVs would be painfully obvious. As impressed as I was with the Avengers demo, I really wanted to see something mind-blowing. We settled on the flying-fish scene from Life of Pi, because it pioneered the use of 3D animation that breaks out of the letterbox region—an effect that helped the 3D spectacle earn the 2013 Oscar for visual effects.

With letterbox bars on the screen, the panel maintained its deep blacks and screen uniformity. As the scene began, with the first couple of fish appearing, I began to appreciate something Riley had described to me. The Ultra-D processor is capable of combining the information in the full-HD left and right views on a 3D Blu-ray. Since these two images contain different visual information—2 million pixels each—the Ultra-D process is able to interpolate the textures to achieve a higher visual resolution. The two images become one scene, and on a UHDTV, the viewer actually sees more detail watching an Ultra-D presentation of a 3D BD, than is contained in the equivalent 1080p 2D presentation.


This was the actual pre-production unit—sadly a 2D photo cannot show what I saw.

The added detail afforded by Ultra-D was on full display as the fish started flying and ultimately appeared to leap right out of the screen into the room. I have never seen anything like it, and I got goose bumps. That's because I felt—at that moment—a thrill that reminded me of being a kid at an amusement park, or at the premier of the greatest movie ever. I was entranced by the detail, the realism, and most important, the viewing comfort.

As a final test, I turned the room light all the way off and then all the way up. Image quality remained excellent, regardless of ambient light levels. This is glasses-free 3D that is watchable in a sunlit room or a darkened home theater. I also found that off-angle viewing still maintained the 3D effect, and viewing distance was not an issue—whether I was six feet away or fifteen-plus feet away, the 3D effect was impressive.

While I moved around the room on foot to check viewing angles, I noticed that the 3D image exhibited a minor flutter, a visual pulsation of sorts. That flutter is a known side effect of transitioning between "viewing cones," the means by which autostereoscopic screens deliver discrete information to each eye. It was only noticeable when moving around; all stationary viewing positions yielded exceptional 3D.

When the demo ended, I could not help but think that I had just glimpsed the future of UHDTV. Now, when I watch my TV at home, its "flatness" is painfully obvious, and seemingly unnecessary. However, my current HDTV has 3D capability, so the real issue is wearing 3D glasses and the dim image that creates.

From what I have seen and heard, Stream TV Networks and its Ultra-D technology is ready for prime time—as in mass production—and should be coming to store shelves sooner than I anticipated. According to Riley, there is much more to come—so stay tuned for more news about this very impressive 3D-display technology.

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Time to save up in order to waste more money! banana.gif
post #88 of 106
bump
Any more news about ultra-D

http://www.seecubic.com/

http://www.dimenco.eu/dimencodisplays/
Edited by canton160 - 9/15/13 at 8:56pm
post #89 of 106
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by canton160 View Post

bump
Any more news about ultra-d tech

Never fear, CEDIA is near. Actually, yes—the company just recently achieved a milestone. It ported the Ultra-D processing application to a Snapdragon 800 processor—a crucial step to getting the system ready for mass production.
post #90 of 106
The golf clubs in south korea going to have 50" 3d glasses free tvs

http://www.signageinfo.com/news/32011/worlds-first-glasses-free-3d-fhd-experience-made-possible-dimenco-displays-south-korea/
Edited by canton160 - 9/15/13 at 9:11pm
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