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Digital projection cine 1000 led discussion - Page 7

post #181 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Something doesn't sound right - maybe you got a defective unit. I'm surprised your friend could see rainbows - I didn't see any at Cedia. And it certainly seemed brighter at Cedia than 585 lumens - in fact, the 2000 lumen Titan wasn't much brighter on a 165" diagonal screen. .

Something is not right. At 585 lumens on the screen we saw at CEDIA, we would have been viewing slightly over 9 Foot Lamberts. No way we were watching an image that was 9 FL.

Added
What was the brightness control setting?
Edited by AV Science Sales 5 - 11/26/13 at 8:32pm
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post #182 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Something is not right. At 585 lumens on the screen we saw at CEDIA, we would have been viewing slightly over 9 Foot Lamberts. No way we were watching an image that was 9 FL.

LED projectors do appear brighter smile.gif
post #183 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

LED projectors do appear brighter smile.gif

Not that much brighter. smile.gif
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post #184 of 211
Brightness 102
post #185 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Not that much brighter. smile.gif

I know, you can Craig should easily be able to know what 9ftL looks like
post #186 of 211

Has anyone else been lucky to receive theirs yet?

Unfortunately mine will not be delivered until Monday, even though it has already arrived at my local UPS depot this morning.

Curious to see if anyone else experiences what hifiaudio2 has described a few posts back.

post #187 of 211
I received my DPI Cine 1000 last week and am very impressed with it. My thanks to Mike and AVS.

My setup has the projector lens 59.5" off the floor and shooting into the center of a Dalite HP 2.4 148" 2.35 screen located 18'8" away. That's about a 118" 16x9 image. This is mid zoom for the long throw lens option and a 2.1 throw ratio. Also about a 2.0 gain at my chair.

Out of the box the images looked a bit too green but this can be easily tamed using the projectors internal gain/offset controls. There are also HSG controls that only affect the NATIVE color mode.
The Dynamic Black option works about as well as others I've seen, that is not very well and should be left off. IMO only Sonys have a useful dynamic iris system. Every other one kicks in and out too abruptly.

It is also fairly quiet for a unit with 5? fans. I'd say the noise spectrum favors the lower tones. Easily masked by other sounds.

Now to what I and I assume most everybody else wants to know. How bright is this thing?

Using an Aemc 813 light meter I measured 652 lumens or about 14.5 fL. Brilliant Color increased this to 861 lumens/19.1 fL. About a third more.

For comparision purposes using the exact same setup and meter and a Sony HW50 projector with 90 hrs on the bulb I measured 689 lumens 15.3fL low bulb/1103 lumens 24.5fL high bulb. So the Cine 1000 was practically equal in light output to the Sony with a new bulb in low power. Very impressive and these lumens won't grow old and fade away after a few hundred hrs. All measurements were taken after adjusting the brightness and contrast controls to display 16- 240 levels.

In my current room setup I have also seen the Sony 1000 and the SIM 150 LED along with a Vango LED projector. Each has it's own strengths and weaknesses. I will proudly admit to preferring the Native LED modes vs rec 709 color space. The colors in the real world exist outside rec 709. Measure for reference, season for preference works for me within reason. Especially with a little ambient light in the room.
I also have grown to hate changing projector bulbs and all their related hassles so I am very pleased to see progress made on the LED projector front. Yes this model has more light output than than the previous DPI model. My thanks to blee0120 for his help checking/verifing this with his DPI Cine 600.
post #188 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by dryeye View Post

I received my DPI Cine 1000 last week and am very impressed with it. My thanks to Mike and AVS.

My setup has the projector lens 59.5" off the floor and shooting into the center of a Dalite HP 2.4 148" 2.35 screen located 18'8" away. That's about a 118" 16x9 image. This is mid zoom for the long throw lens option and a 2.1 throw ratio. Also about a 2.0 gain at my chair.

Out of the box the images looked a bit too green but this can be easily tamed using the projectors internal gain/offset controls. There are also HSG controls that only affect the NATIVE color mode.
The Dynamic Black option works about as well as others I've seen, that is not very well and should be left off. IMO only Sonys have a useful dynamic iris system. Every other one kicks in and out too abruptly.

It is also fairly quiet for a unit with 5? fans. I'd say the noise spectrum favors the lower tones. Easily masked by other sounds.

Now to what I and I assume most everybody else wants to know. How bright is this thing?

Using an Aemc 813 light meter I measured 652 lumens or about 14.5 fL. Brilliant Color increased this to 861 lumens/19.1 fL. About a third more.

For comparision purposes using the exact same setup and meter and a Sony HW50 projector with 90 hrs on the bulb I measured 689 lumens 15.3fL low bulb/1103 lumens 24.5fL high bulb. So the Cine 1000 was practically equal in light output to the Sony with a new bulb in low power. Very impressive and these lumens won't grow old and fade away after a few hundred hrs. All measurements were taken after adjusting the brightness and contrast controls to display 16- 240 levels.

In my current room setup I have also seen the Sony 1000 and the SIM 150 LED along with a Vango LED projector. Each has it's own strengths and weaknesses. I will proudly admit to preferring the Native LED modes vs rec 709 color space. The colors in the real world exist outside rec 709. Measure for reference, season for preference works for me within reason. Especially with a little ambient light in the room.
I also have grown to hate changing projector bulbs and all their related hassles so I am very pleased to see progress made on the LED projector front. Yes this model has more light output than than the previous DPI model. My thanks to blee0120 for his help checking/verifing this with his DPI Cine 600.

Just like me, you prefer the native colors better than the rec.709, even though on occasions I do use rec.709. It seem as if its brighter than the other members, keep everyone posted on how you like the DPI
post #189 of 211
Dryeye - you seem to have a host of LED projectors, how do you think the DPI 1000 compares to the Vango and Sim2 M150 for brightness?
It's encouraging to hear that you got 861 lumens with brilliant color.
You say you prefer the native LED colour, (from what I have seen I find it quite appealing) were your measurements done at rec709 or the native colour? Did native/rec709 make much difference to lumen output?
post #190 of 211
My measurements were done in both rec 709 and Native. There was no difference in the lumen output. I have been using a Vango as my primary projector for just over a year now. The air cooled DPI 1000 has more light output than my water cooled Vango. I find that interesting and encouraging for the future development of LED based machines. The exhaust is also much less and cooler than my Sony even in low bulb mode. One quirk I have noticed and this seems to be standard for DPI machines, the controls for color and hue are disabled when the input is HDMI. Many times I have the need to boost or cut the overall color of some tv shows for an hour or so on the fly. Not a deal breaker but also not nice DPI mad.gif

REgarding the Sim2 M150, I never owned it but had the pleasure of its company for a few days. I loved everything about it more than my Vango except two things. It's price and the light output. I might have been able to overlook the price IF it had been brighter. I was shocked that it was actually lower in light output than my Vango. This was supposed to be an improved version of the 50 model. Not that much improved to my eyes.

I never watche in Brillaint color with my Vango because the cooling fan kicks into high gear and becomes too audible but then again I never felt the need for more light either. However there is no increase in the DPI 1000 fan when BC is engaged. I need to spend more time investigating this mode. BTW it seems the 1000 likes being fed a 422 signal vs the RGB my Vango and Sony prefer.
post #191 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by dryeye View Post

My measurements were done in both rec 709 and Native. There was no difference in the lumen output. I have been using a Vango as my primary projector for just over a year now. The air cooled DPI 1000 has more light output than my water cooled Vango. I find that interesting and encouraging for the future development of LED based machines. The exhaust is also much less and cooler than my Sony even in low bulb mode. One quirk I have noticed and this seems to be standard for DPI machines, the controls for color and hue are disabled when the input is HDMI. Many times I have the need to boost or cut the overall color of some tv shows for an hour or so on the fly. Not a deal breaker but also not nice DPI mad.gif

REgarding the Sim2 M150, I never owned it but had the pleasure of its company for a few days. I loved everything about it more than my Vango except two things. It's price and the light output. I might have been able to overlook the price IF it had been brighter. I was shocked that it was actually lower in light output than my Vango. This was supposed to be an improved version of the 50 model. Not that much improved to my eyes.

I never watche in Brillaint color with my Vango because the cooling fan kicks into high gear and becomes too audible but then again I never felt the need for more light either. However there is no increase in the DPI 1000 fan when BC is engaged. I need to spend more time investigating this mode. BTW it seems the 1000 likes being fed a 422 signal vs the RGB my Vango and Sony prefer.

Did you also try turning on Dynamic Black at 4?
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post #192 of 211
Mike- yes I tried Dynamic Black and have concluded that it can be useful for many movies. Especially scifi ones that have much of the movie film in dark scenery. But for alot of the stuff I have been watching lately I can still notice it turning on and off a bit too much for my likeing. Maybe I'm just used to the Sony system or have just had a run of bad luck picking tv shows the past few days tongue.gif To be fair the Vango operates the same way and the Sim2 M150 wasn't all that much slicker in its execution. Guess its just the nature of the beast at this point. But with it on a fade to black is really a fade to black. Must be seen to be believed. Definately no hand puppets to be found .

Daniel- If you get a chance definately check this cine 1000 out. Especially if you've enjoyed other LED models in the past and were holdng out for more light output. The image this thing throws is razor sharp and bright. cool.gif
post #193 of 211
Quote:
Daniel- If you get a chance definately check this cine 1000 out. Especially if you've enjoyed other LED models in the past and were holdng out for more light output. The image this thing throws is razor sharp and bright.

Now that's what Mike and I saw at Cedia !
post #194 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by dryeye View Post

Mike- yes I tried Dynamic Black and have concluded that it can be useful for many movies. Especially scifi ones that have much of the movie film in dark scenery. But for alot of the stuff I have been watching lately I can still notice it turning on and off a bit too much for my likeing. Maybe I'm just used to the Sony system or have just had a run of bad luck picking tv shows the past few days tongue.gif To be fair the Vango operates the same way and the Sim2 M150 wasn't all that much slicker in its execution. Guess its just the nature of the beast at this point. But with it on a fade to black is really a fade to black. Must be seen to be believed. Definately no hand puppets to be found .

Your description sounds like what I'd expect from having Dynamic Black set to MAX or possibly 8x vs 4x. From what I've gathered 4x should be close to what my Planar 8150 does and it's essentially invisible (unless there's something like subtitles/crawlers/etc) but does not reach "no hand puppets" black in fade to blacks.
post #195 of 211
Has anyone ever measured display lag on these projectors or any of the lower lumen DPI, Runco, Vivitek LED clones? I'm wondering how well they would work for gaming.

I've also never seen any measurements of motion resolution. Do they even offer any motion enhancement settings?
post #196 of 211
My DPI M260 600 lumen LED came in at around 480 lumens when installed 3 years ago.

I was hoping to get feedback on the gen 2 product at 700+ on average.

As far as the CEDIA demos being anywhere near close between the LED and TITAN there were not to me. I think it is more of a placebo affect based on the price difference .

BTW, back when Dan Miller then with Projection Design, showed what I recall the first LED to hit the market all in the room was guessing anywhere from 15-20 ftL and it was 8!
post #197 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Your description sounds like what I'd expect from having Dynamic Black set to MAX or possibly 8x vs 4x. From what I've gathered 4x should be close to what my Planar 8150 does and it's essentially invisible (unless there's something like subtitles/crawlers/etc) but does not reach "no hand puppets" black in fade to blacks.

What I mean by that is when there is an absolute fade to black. It is black. The LEDs are shut off. No light out. You cannot shut off a regular bulb based light source. Granted these complete fades are rare and how quickly the LEDs are shut off is probably also related to the multipler this control is set at. But yes they are capable of no light out. No hand puppets.
post #198 of 211
Wizziwig- the cine 100 doe not offer any motion enhancement so no way to get the soap opera effect . I do not game or see rainbows and think the motion of this model is fine. The only LED based model that offers motion enhancement that I know of is the SIM2 M150 and when I switched it on I had to switch it off very soon afterwards. I did not like it and It introduced lip sync errors.
post #199 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by dryeye View Post

What I mean by that is when there is an absolute fade to black. It is black. The LEDs are shut off. No light out. You cannot shut off a regular bulb based light source. Granted these complete fades are rare and how quickly the LEDs are shut off is probably also related to the multipler this control is set at. But yes they are capable of no light out. No hand puppets.

Right, that's consistent with what I would expect when Dynamic Black is set to "Max" (IIRC there were similar descriptions with the "Infinite" setting on Runco's LED machines). My understanding is that 8x and 4x settings do not turn the LEDs off (ever) and should be less intrusive.
post #200 of 211
We have another one of these fine projectors in stock, just FYI. Perfect for a Christmas present ( to yourself ) !! smile.gif
post #201 of 211
I'm surprised there isn't more feedback on this projector yet - maybe folks that bought one are too busy watching movies ?? smile.gif
post #202 of 211
If the image looked anywhere near as good as the NuVision ProVu P2 I had, I don't blame them. These are great projectors that produce stunning image quality. smile.gif
post #203 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by dryeye View Post

But with it on a fade to black is really a fade to black. Must be seen to be believed. Definately no hand puppets to be found.:

The Mits HC8000 will close the iris completely for a complete fade to black (auto iris 3 setting) -- it is instantaneous (to the human eye) and very smooth. I presently have seven projectors and six have DIs. None of the others come close. The only other projectors I have owned that would do this were gamma corrected CRTs -- a Marquee 8500(LC) and a Sony G90.
post #204 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

The Mits HC8000 will close the iris completely for a complete fade to black (auto iris 3 setting) -- it is instantaneous (to the human eye) and very smooth.

Sounds like a contradiction and action that would lead to abrupt and obvious black level pumping.
post #205 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

The Mits HC8000 will close the iris completely for a complete fade to black (auto iris 3 setting) -- it is instantaneous (to the human eye) and very smooth. I presently have seven projectors and six have DIs. None of the others come close. The only other projectors I have owned that would do this were gamma corrected CRTs -- a Marquee 8500(LC) and a Sony G90.

The Mit HC8000 does fade to black. It shocked me the first time because I didn't think it could. I showed my girlfriend and she was not amazed at all.
post #206 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

The Mits HC8000 will close the iris completely for a complete fade to black (auto iris 3 setting) -- it is instantaneous (to the human eye) and very smooth. I presently have seven projectors and six have DIs. None of the others come close. The only other projectors I have owned that would do this were gamma corrected CRTs -- a Marquee 8500(LC) and a Sony G90.

The Benq w7000 can do the same thing, if you set the IRIS aggressive enough in the service menu.
post #207 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

LED projectors do appear brighter smile.gif

That's more than likely just always been marketing stuff, I asked an engineer that makes LED stuff in an engineering forum because there was a huge argument in the forums about this, and it doesn't appear brighter unless it's calibrated that way OFF spec (at least according to him), because the spectral ranges in this stuff don't end up pure, so it cannot hold that purity to make it brighter (something like that is how he explained it). I know a bunch of you guys are in the software business, so you should know how much marketing stuff is thrown around these days. I know the MFR's claim the spectrum origination is such it makes it appear brighter from being more saturated, but that doesn't really make sense if you look into it far enough. More than likely, the main thing is just that the LED lamps are producing closer lumens to their ratings and holding them longer, since they don't lose brightness like regular lamps.

A quickie from the WIKI....

HSL and HSV do not qualify because many spectral colors lie rather far from its gamut.
Samples (allegedly in sRGB) currently rely on Wikipedia data which sometimes use poor, unprofessional sources, misinterpretation of sources, or occasionally contain original researches.
Values for the hue (HSL and HSV or an extrapolation, where necessary) currently rely on Wikipedia data which are prone to miscalculation and other irregularities. Also note that RGB is not an absolute color space, and certain specific standard (such as sRGB) is necessary to map RGB hues to near-spectral colors.
^ Jump up to: a b c d e f Thomas J. Bruno, Paris D. N. Svoronos. CRC Handbook of Fundamental Spectroscopic Correlation Charts. CRC Press, 2005. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/vision/specol.html#c1
Edited by coderguy - 12/31/13 at 12:29pm
post #208 of 211
Nobody else has gotten one of these projectors recently? I'm surprised, since quite a few of them were sold after seeing them at Cedia. If there are any other owners - chime in !
post #209 of 211
Anyone in south central Ky. that wants to see one of these and a VW600ES along with a Kaleidescape Cinema One: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1519574/ht-demo-in-southern-kentucky-area-march-22nd
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post #210 of 211
Anybody else have one of these? I can't believe that there aren't a few new owners out there - it's a great projector. Maybe someone that saw it at Mike's theater demo can chime in.
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