Las Vegas, NV - HDTV - Page 119

No, trust me, I can actually see the difference, as many others can too.
If it's in a lower resolution, and you can see the lower resolution in the viewing of the content... To each their own...
vegggas

Where are you seeing 4 subchannels in KVMY? I only see a 12mbit stream for WB HD video with 384kbit audio, a 3.5mbit stream for The Tube with 192kbit audio, and 3.3mbits of null packets.

I wonder why KVCW is glitchy with the DirecTV H10...their transport stream seems reasonable enough, especially when compared to the mess that is KVMY.

Yep, your right. I looked too fast and dug too deep into trying to get a lock on the transport stream services (not pictured) to notice that the four Program streams were audio and video combos. The EIT table only shows two services too.
Notice I didn't say subchannels though!
As for the KVCW, I can tune it ok too. Maybe I'll deeper into it.

vegggas

I haven't got a clue what you guys are talking about, and I thought I was tech savvy.

That's the beauty of modern consumer electronics - Push the power button and it just works - Well, usually it does. I can still build a radio with a few simple parts without a power source, at least I think I still can That's also why there is a WIDE variety of people with the same services, but with completely different views on how it looks too. There are so many variables involved in the delivery, reception and display of a digital signal that rarely are two system exactly the same.
Many think a digital signal either works or it doesn't, but there's a lot more involved than just getting a signal.

vegggas

vegggas, are you going to be able to post a transport stream breakdown of the big 4 and pbs soon? I'm wondering if KLAS has any extra services running, since the NFL game tonite looks noticebly worse than last season.

Here you go. Running at about 14.5Mbps average.
Notice the null packets and all the EIT tables... Something is being added...
From a hardware source manual:
vegggas

that may be, but the colts/rams game on Fox cox# 735 looked outstanding to my eyes. I'm disappointed that D* wont be showing ALL the NFL games this year in HD . Last year all the FOX games were in HD and only 3 for CBS. I believe that its going to be the same this year contrary to the rumors I had read last year about all the games going HD for CBS this year. The analog games on Sunday Ticket are horrible and almost completely unwatchable.

Watch them on a smaller set and it will be just fine!

I really don't see the point in watching men do athletic stunts, touch each other on the butt and do gay dances after scoring on larger and larger sets! IN HD EVEN?

Really, just go to walmart and pick up a 27 tube and watch football on that. The clarity and vividness will astonish you. It just wont be so big

Just as a reference, here is the KLAS feed (second program #49 is KLAS) on Cox cable on a QAM being shared with PBS. They get the same feeds and don't alter or compress them. As you can see by the null packets, there are over 11Mbps of unused space that could be filled if local broadcastesr upped their datarates.
A QAM holds 38.4Mbps on it's carrier, so it can hold 2 full data rate 19.2Mbps OTA full broadcasts with no overhead loss.

vegggas

I thought Cox was complaining of lack of bandwith and going switched digital?
Cant the 11 Mbps be used elsewhere? I'm not familiar with QAM I guess.

Maybe Cox should alter and compress them a little and give the customers more content esp. HD!

No, that's Dish's playbook.

I don't think you are understanding, so I'll reiterate.
OTA 8VSB modulated signals can provide up to 19.Mbps of data on each RF channel. High quality video signals can be transmitted this way, typically with a single video stream.
256QAM Modulated RF signals can carry up to 38.4Mbps of data, which can hold two OTA stations without modifying or degrading the signals in any way. Cox is carrying only two OTA signals on the QAM so that they can provide the retransmissions of local stations with no degradation at their full bandwidth.
The local stations are REDUCING the maximum throughput of 19.8Mbp down to lower levels in order to add additional services (weather, etc), at the expense of the main channel, that WILL and DO show much more macroblocking than if they were at full datarates.
A good example would be like watching good streaming videos on the internet on a broadand connection at a high data rate like 3 to 5 Megabits /sec, then trying to watch the same video on a dial up low data rate phone connection like 33.6 to 56 Kilobits /sec. The video will suffer a lot of blocking issues because the video bandwidth exceeds the connetion bandwidth.
Cox is having to keep the full data rate available in case the local stations get closer to using their maximum bitrate again. Unfortunately, you can't move bits around between QAMs or modulators. Moving to Switched Digital Video, EVERYTHING is eventually converted to IP and sent to the end user and any and all available extra Mbps can be used wherever they are needed to cover the bandwidth needs of the video.

Cox and other cable co's are in the process of moving and grouping channels together to make more efficient use of current channel needs right now, and moving to Switched Digital Video for even more bandwidth down the road. That that takes millions of dollars in equipment swapouts in all the headends and all the thousands of neighborhood nodes. Gains underway will yield enough room for about 6 HD channels in the near future and around 30 more HD channels by the time the conversion is completed. When asked about future HD channels in an interview, The Cox corporate executves have been quoted as saying " All of them"


That is what D* has been doing for a while now and what E* is starting to do more of. They are reducing overall resolution by 25% and datarates by about the same. Those sat subs are leaving and moving to cable to get the last bastion of full resolution they can get.

vegggas

^^ Yep, with switched video cable effectively has unlimited bandwidth. Perhaps foghorn wants everyone to suffer compressed HD-lite so he can rationalize the fast one Dish has pulled on him. (After all, judging from various threads, he is about the only person that can't see the HD-lite on HDNet/HDNet Movies.)

The worst part for you guys is that Cox doesn't appear to be carrying the extra PBS subchannels. Cox here has NBC and PBS on RF 81, and they carry both NBC Weather+ and the PBS SD simulcast in there as well. It's bad to be screwed out of bandwidth by a station so they can put up a useless weather channel or at best marginally useful (logo-free) version of their analog channel, and it's even worse when your provider just burns that bandwidth on nullpackets.

Switched video is still a long ways out, and when it gets here it will render useless everything that uses a CableCard, including the S3 Tivo.

No, the HD-lite thing is just a few complainers that have 1080i/p sets that have nothing better to do but to look at bitrates and size and complain all day about it instead of changing providers.

I see no mass exodus of customers leaving Dish because of HDnet compression. If anything, they gain more subs each day! Heck, at least we have HDnet, what can the cheerleaders @ Cox say about that?

HDnet on Dish still looks better on Dish than DTV and better than INHD (which we may get soon) on COX.

As for switched video, I think its just a ploy to keep people renting their crappy boxes and kill TivoS3. Now when that happens, we will see who is really pulling the fast one on the customers!

BTW, George: Hows your investment in USDTV? Did some one pull a fast one on you there? How about channel 8, they are not broadcasting at full 19.2, are they pulling a fast one on you there too?

George, tell me please, where can you get HDnet at full bitrate? Is it from Cox, DTV, please let me know so if I ever notice the picture quality degration, I can switch!

Oh, I know Vegggas, you are the only one getting HDnet through Cox because you are so special and I'm sure you will report it to be full bitrate?

Channel 8's HD-LITE bit rates are about the same as HDnet on Dish. Damn they both look good!

Isn't channel 8 doing the same along with all the local providers. They are all HD-Lite!

No they don't. Because KLAS is using an early generation HD encoder, the games on NFL Network HD (even via DirecTV) have put their macroblocking broadcast to shame.

The PBS SD digital subchannel looks like internet video circa 1995. The bitrate is just too low to be watchable so I don't blame Cox for not bothering. KLVX just added Create, so that one might be a carriage issue.

Actually, The S3Tivo is suppose to be able to have a multistream cable card. From the product specs i believe it stated two regular cable cards and one multistream. Switched video can work with the multistream cable card.

I remember reading about the multistream cable card able to do switched video either at www.cedmagazine.com or www.multichannel.com .

Mark

NFL Network HD is up on Ch 707 right now. Giants vs. Ravens. Looks like it is just for when NFL Net has an HD game. Went back to INHD2 after the game.

Hey All,
I have a E* 811 and all I see is black when I turn on 10-03 KLVX. Anyone else see nothing but black on 10-03?

Yes they do, they are on a different QAM. Cox is in the middle of re-organizing the lineup (PID'S) to be more efficient and free up space for simulcast and more HD.

It's already here and no it won't. Switched Digital Video will work with Cable Card as long as the HOST device is able to send a return signal to the headend and request a stream. Next July (I think) cable co's are required to only purchase STB's that do not handle the decryption internally and use cable card or OCAP as the decryptor devices. Time Warner already has rolled out SDV in some markets with success.
Tivo is bringing a product to market at the end stages of Cable Card V1 development and is concerned that in the next year as cable co's start to use SDV, they will have to make their devices with a return path to be compatible with all services. The same could be said of D* and E* going Mpeg4 since Tivo is not compatible with Mpeg 4 either. This is the biggest pitfall of owning devices instead of leasing them as technology is moving at a faster pace every day than manufacturing can keep up with.

vegggas

There are tons of people complaining about the quality and 1080i sets have been around since the 90's. Even people with lower resolution displays are complaining and many don't have any idea about bitrates and size, only that the PQ is less than it used to be and not as good as other providers. And yes, there are D* diehards that have vowed to never change and have had the services for 10 or more years, now are going to cable and not believing how good the PQ can be.

It's been less than a week, but there are already posts about Dish customers complaining and leaving. May saw the writing on the wall and left before this happened. As for HDNet, time will tell. Agreements were just made with A&EHD and as contracts are finalized content will be added as space permits, and not because they are recompressing the feed to fit more in the same small hole.

You are just guessing about INHD quality here.

^^ See my previous post about SDV and Tivo. As of this time next year, you should be able to buy any OCAP box you want.

Channel 8 KLAS is reducing their bitrate for a reason. We do not yet know exactly why, but there is speculation. The pixelation seen is the same for all providers using their feed, so if it doesn't bother you, then you are not as picky as you say you are.
If you have acces to HDNet from any provider, I strongly suggest recording the test patterens most Tuesday Mornings to get an idea of how your system compares to others. BTW, the 25% reduction in resolution on Dish was for the HDNet Movies Channel, not the Main HDNet channel.

Oh yeah Foghorn, We will welcome you back when Cox launches HDNet and other channelsat 1920x1080 and at 20+ Mbps.
vegggas

This is how I KNOW you are not seeing the full picture. KLAS Channel 8 PQ has been going downhill with fast motion for a little while now (a few of us mentioned it back a few months ago) as they are doing some kind of testing, possibly at the national level. If you have not seen the difference, or think it looks "good" than you don't know what you are missing or do not have the resources to see the drop in quality.


No, they are providing full 1920x1080 resolution, not 1440x1080 (HD-Lite) resolution. They are just limiting the bitrate so that fast motion scenes are getting pixelated. Slow moving or still scenes still look stunning.


vegggas

Thanks tazlv - Just to clarify, this was on Cox LV Channel 707 (INHD2), carrying the NFL NETWORK HD content. The NFL Network is already on channel 317 AND has it's own VOD content channel. Adding it as a seperate HD channel is a waste of bandwidth at this time with only a few hours of content for the season.

vegggas

Hmmm.. I wonder if Foghorn is watching the FoxHD (KVVU in Vegas) MLB game between the SF Giants and LA Dodgers? I'll give you a hint, it's not HD at all, it's Widescreen SD, and yes, everyone can tell the difference in PQ, except maybe Foghorn.
This is KVVU's example of:
Lower resolution + high bandwidth = No pixelation on fast motion + soft and no details in picture.
Instead of KLAS:
High resolution + Low bandwidth = Pixelation on fast motion + Razor Sharp images the rest of the time.

vegggas

I don't watch men in tights doing athletic stunts and acts so you are right, I would not know. You might notice the lack of defintion and not be able to figure the size of their jock staps and the firmness of the pitcher, but I could care less

As for 1920x1080 vs. 1440x1080, most people with HD sets have a native res well below that and 720p which is what most have to most looks better than 1080i, especially watching men doing athletic stunts that you are into.

If you have a 1920x1080, please stick with cable and suffer the lack of HD content. And if you pause the interlaced source, your brain can still pretend it looks better than 720p Make sure you are viewing the men doing athletic stunts on the paused screens at least 6 inches from the screen to notice how much better the scarce content in 1920x1080 20Mbps looks from Coxs Cable.