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Audiophile CD Player? Which One? - Page 9

post #241 of 467
At what point do all dacs sound the same in a DBT? Does a 8 bit dac sound the same as a 24 bit dac?
post #242 of 467
Quote:
For some it is all about the equipment. For others it is about the music.
But it needs to be said that if it's about the equipment, then it is definitely not about the music. People who need particular gear to really appreciate music are not music lovers. They are pretending to love music in order to justify their shopping addiction.
post #243 of 467
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At what point do all dacs sound the same in a DBT? Does a 8 bit dac sound the same as a 24 bit dac?
If you're listening to something with less than 50 dB of dynamic range, it might.
post #244 of 467
You can't always believe in what you read...
But you can always believe in what you hear..the music,the depth,true " you are there" sound, the music dont lie.
I also have reached my stopping point with any of my gear/cables
I'm very happy with it as it is now...although I have been eyeing those sonus faber speakers.
post #245 of 467
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But you can always believe in what you hear.
If you believe that, it is no wonder you have parted with so much money. smile.gif
post #246 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by initech View Post

At what point do all dacs sound the same in a DBT? Does a 8 bit dac sound the same as a 24 bit dac?

We've been talking about DACs used to play CD's, DVD's etc.
post #247 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by initech View Post

At what point do all dacs sound the same in a DBT?

Response 20Hz-20 KHz +/- 0.3 dB
Dynamic range > 90 dB
Quote:
Does a 8 bit dac sound the same as a 24 bit dac?

With reasonable program material, never.

The more interesting question is:

Does a 16 bit DAC sound the same as a 24 bit DAC or DSD? The answer is always.
post #248 of 467
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Originally Posted by esh516 View Post


You can't always believe in what you read...

Absolutely.
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But you can always believe in what you hear.

Self-contracitory statement. Let's say I read something to you that you shouldn't believe. You are hearing it, now. Should you believe it this time because you are hearing it?

Seriously, there are definitely such things as audible illusions, and of course you shouldn't believe them.
post #249 of 467
The money I have parted with is cheap..(12-15k) that's gear and all.that's over a 10 yr period!
Its a small amount for what it gives ME in return.

I do have a limit you know...its not like I'm buying cables costing thousands of dollars...I would never spend over 500$ for a cable.
There comes a time when everything is perfect....years of putting together the perfect setup..there is no need to go any further and spend a lot more money for a slight increase in sound quality
post #250 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Absolutely.
Self-contracitory statement. Let's say I read something to you that you shouldn't believe. You are hearing it, now. Should you believe it this time because you are hearing it?

Seriously, there are definitely such things as audible illusions, and of course you shouldn't believe them.
But..music does not lie.
Believing a sound you hear from your speakers,is different from believing a conversation ,or something you over hear.
Like I said..music don't lie
post #251 of 467
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But..music does not lie.
You lie to yourself.
post #252 of 467
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

You lie to yourself.
Ohhhh...well that sure explains everything!
post #253 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

I respect your scientific test,have proof,can't be possible beliefs... But you need to respect the fact that those of us that DO believe.... IF IT IS NOT THERE WE WOULD NOT HEAR IT..then what changes am I hearing when I switch speaker cable?

The one thing I want to say here is that no one would deny your belief that you think you are hearing differences. That's belief, though. Again, no one would deny that you believe you're hearing what you're hearing.

But you absolutely staunchly refuse to even entertain the idea that the reality may be different than your belief. That's the core of what everyone's been trying to pound into you in this thread.
post #254 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

..
Pretend...hearings things that are NOT there..and laziness.. Are the areas I do not..like you said there are two groups here..I have been in both groups thru the years.

I simply don't believe that you have been on the scientific side. I see nothing in what have posted indicating such a thing. What I do see is overwhelming stubbornness and denial. A complete disregard for science. Saying "I can't hear" is not the same as saying "I can't hear according to science".
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..and my feet are firmly placed on this side of the fence.

Yes, the aforementioned stubbornness.
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.I respect your scientific test,

I don't see that at all. All of the posts portraying science as being incompetent and stupid tell a different story to me. All of the misrepresentations of the scientific viewpoint tell me that you don't even understand scientific testing, let alone respect it.
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But you need to respect the fact that those of us that DO believe....

I could if there were something respectable behind it. But there does not seem to be any actual respect behind it.
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IF IT IS NOT THERE WE WOULD NOT HEAR IT.

At this point the scientific reasons why you hear something that is not there have been completely explained using science. The problem with your simplistic listening tests is not the listener, the problem is with the tests themselves.
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.then what changes am I hearing when I switch speaker cable?

This has been explained many times using science but there appears to be no respect for science. What changes? Your perceptions. The problem is that your perceptions of change are not based on something audibly different that the cable actually does, your perceptions of change are the results of your unscientific listening tests.
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Speaker cable is easy to hear the differences..interconnects gets a little tougher..

Both statements are easy to show to be false, if you do your listening tests following science as your guide.
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.....oh what the hell are we still talking about this for??....

We are talking about this because that is what you want to do.
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I'm making coffee and listening To some Neil young..

That's fine. The coffee is real, the Neil Young is real, but your perceptions of everything sounding different are based on illusions.
post #255 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

You lie to yourself.
Ohhhh...well that sure explains everything!

I would say that the bad listening tests are lying to you.

If the cables were actually changing the sound it wouldn't matter how you tested them as long as the tests were sensitive and valid. The fact that the perception of differences goes away when someone takes the time to do scientific listening tests tells the whole story.
post #256 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post
 
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Good point. But... I have several wristwatches. One of them is a Rolex and one of the others is a 10 dollar digital thing I bought in a gas station. I wear the Rolex when I am all dressed up to go out and I wear the gas-station-special when I am doing DIY, or walking my dog and so on. Now I'd be the first to admit that the Rolex does not keep time any better than the other one. But I love that Rolex. I am proud to own it and I get pleasure from wearing it and looking at it and so on. Pride of ownership is fine. If someone wants $2,000 speaker wires because they look great and they like to admire them and to show them off to their friends etc, that's terrific. It's when they start to make up stuff that they sound better that they part company with me. It'd be the same as me insisting that my Rolex was more accurate than the 10 buck special (it isn't) or that it somehow gives a better 'quality' of time (it doesn't, obviously).
But you didn't buy the Rolex because it was a better timekeeper, so if somebody tells you his Swatch is just as good, you can just shrug your shoulders. They bought those $2,000 cables believing they really did sound better. To admit the scientific truth of the matter would mean an awful log of egg on their faces. Not admitting it is the easiest path to take. (Laziness, again!)

 

Yes, agreed. Sometimes the hardest person to be totally honest with is oneself.

post #257 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post
 
Quote:
For some it is all about the equipment. For others it is about the music.
But it needs to be said that if it's about the equipment, then it is definitely not about the music. People who need particular gear to really appreciate music are not music lovers. They are pretending to love music in order to justify their shopping addiction.

 

They are using the music to play their system instead of the other way around. Every professional or semi-professional musician I have known has a really crappy music reproduction system.

post #258 of 467
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Originally Posted by bo130 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

+1. It's also difficult to understand why they are so vehemently opposed to the application of well-established science. I assume this doesn't enter into other areas of their lives?  For example, when they need medicine or drugs, they presumably want to be sure it has been properly tested (which always involves DBT tests), as opposed to someone just saying "well, this worked for me"?  Or when they take a plane trip, they want to know that the plane has been designed in accordance with sound aeronautic practice and the principles of flight and so on?  Is it only in acoustics where they believe that science isn't relevant or important?

That is so absolutely correct, but I can almost guarantee you that you will never hear a rational response to that from the so-called "subjective" group.

The only way I can figure that is that they view listening to audio like looking at a painting. That they believe there is really very little or no applicable science to what they hear, or how they hear it. That what they hear and how they hear it is a complete and utter mystery.

And then in effect they build up their ego, they build up walls around their attitudes, beliefs, and experiences, and they don't want their opinions or what they spent out of their pocketbook to be questioned in any way what soever.

But I don't get why some of them won't even consider the possibility.

 

The 'looking at a painting' analogy is good. The emotional response an individual gets from looking at art IS purely subjective, even when one knows the techniques used in creating the painting and so on. Maybe they do actually believe that the way audio is reproduced and heard comes into the same category. 

post #259 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

Speaker cable is easy to hear the differences..interconnects gets a little tougher..
 

 

So, what did you think of that article on speaker wire, now that you've read it?

post #260 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post


But you can always believe in what you hear..

 

So you didn't check out the McGurk Effect then?

post #261 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post
 
Quote:
But you can always believe in what you hear.
If you believe that, it is no wonder you have parted with so much money. smile.gif

 

ROFL!!  :D

post #262 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

I do have a limit you know...its not like I'm buying cables costing thousands of dollars...I would never spend over 500$ for a cable.
 

 

I can't believe you typed that with a straight face. So you would spend $499 for one cable?

post #263 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post
 
But..music does not lie.

 

I think you are conflating the emotional response you receive from listening to music and the technical means by which it is reproduced and the physiological means by which it is heard.

 

You are right that you cannot use scientific method to evaluate an emotional response (in this context) and you are right that the emotional response is subjective and all that matters is the response the music induces in the particular listener. If I say "I don't like Wagner" that is all there is to it. Someone who does like Wagner can argue with me until the cows come home about the merits of Wagner, but I will never be persuaded by those arguments to like it.

 

You are doing the same with regard to the SCIENCE of acoustics and sound reproduction. That is where your argument collapses. Acoustics is a fairly well understood branch of science and for you to take the position "I disagree and I know what I hear" is you basically saying that the laws of physics don't apply to you. I am sure you can see that that is a nonsensical position to take. 

post #264 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

But you can always believe in what you hear..

So you didn't check out the McGurk Effect then?

I can imagine him watching the video with his eyes closed while yelling "Nananananana..." until it finished. ;-)

Frankly, I think he's trolling us.
post #265 of 467
You all have a great weekend!
post #266 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

But you can always believe in what you hear..

So you didn't check out the McGurk Effect then?

I can imagine him watching the video with his eyes closed while yelling "Nananananana..." until it finished. ;-)

Frankly, I think he's trolling us.

 

I agree. I've come to the conclusion that he just types anything that he knows will provoke a Pavlovian reaction from us, then sits back and laughs his a$s off. There is no way he can really believe some of the stuff he types. 

 

There are also some clues lately as he has been getting bolder - I think the quotes below show that he's winding us up. And he's succeeding judging by the bandwidth we've allowed him.  "Don't feed the troll" is great advice.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

I would never spend over 500$ for a cable.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

So thats why I pamper my gear with very nice hi-end power cords and interconnects..speaker wire..etc

You can not put a price on a feeling...I'm saying these speaker cables,interconnects..etc have made a very good improvement to that feeling/sound
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

Speaker cable is easy to hear the differences..interconnects gets a little tougher..
post #267 of 467
Im not provoking anything..im done.
You have your opinions..i have mine.
No crime done..its not your money..its not your ears..so why should you even worry about it.
I have much better things to do than bicker back and forth about this.
Like i said..i respect your opinions..nothing personal against any of you..i just guess stereophile, hi- fi
all the test we have all done..its all just a lie..
We have ALL been fooled...saturday we are doing dbt test and listening 10 cables..10 listeners.
Again....been thru this way to many times.
Radio shack
Wireworld
Kimber
cardas
straightwire
audience.
And monster.
will not report back my findings becuse it does not matter..to any of you.
You guys have a great weekend..stay safe..listen to music...and enjoy!
post #268 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

Im not provoking anything..im done.
You have your opinions..i have mine.
No crime done..its not your money..its not your ears..so why should you even worry about it.
I have much better things to do than bicker back and forth about this.
Like i said..i respect your opinions..nothing personal against any of you..i just guess stereophile, hi- fi
all the test we have all done..its all just a lie..
We have ALL been fooled...saturday we are doing dbt test and listening 10 cables..10 listeners.
Again....been thru this way to many times.
Radio shack
Wireworld
Kimber
cardas
straightwire
audience.
And monster.
will not report back my findings becuse it does not matter..to any of you.
You guys have a great weekend..stay safe..listen to music...and enjoy!

 

We haven't ALL been fooled, Esh ;) There's arny, diomania, bo130, mcnarus, FMW, me ... to name just a few...

 

So how did you get on with that article about speaker wire then?

 

BTW, don't forget to make sure that the wires under test are switched instantaneously one from another, or your test will be pointless.

 

And you're wrong about it not mattering to us - if there was a speaker wire that could improve the SQ of my system over and above the regular 14AWG stuff I use,  I’d buy it in an instant. Why wouldn't I want these 'night and day differences', this 'greater insight into the detail of the music', those 'velvet-like' trebles, those 'dark spaces between the notes', that 'airiness at the top end' and all the other claims I've seen made about speaker wires?  Of course I would!

post #269 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

BTW, don't forget to make sure that the wires under test are switched instantaneously one from another, or your test will be pointless.
Why? Just because you said so?
You have zero proof for that, since your 'tests' cannot discern any differences, regardless of how fast or slow you switch the equipment. 'No evidence' is not a positive proof. If you can't see the Sun, night or day, because you are inside a windowless building, it doesn't mean the Sun is 'gone' and others can't see it.
post #270 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoNic67 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

BTW, don't forget to make sure that the wires under test are switched instantaneously one from another, or your test will be pointless.
Why? Just because you said so?
You have zero proof for that, since your 'tests' cannot discern any differences, regardless of how fast or slow you switch the equipment. 'No evidence' is not a positive proof. If you can't see the Sun, night or day, because you are inside a windowless building, it doesn't mean the Sun is 'gone' and others can't see it.

Study up on auditory memory then you just might be able to grasp why quick switching would be required. rolleyes.gif
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