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BEYMA TPL-150H - PLEATED HORN TWEETER - Page 2

post #31 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

I am debating this. I do not want my cabinet any wider nor any deeper than I currently have. Height I can do within reason. Right now my boxes are 26" high, 14" wide and 11" deep. Even considering using two TD12M's with the TPL-150H in an MTM arrangement. Any suggestions?

Added
With the width restriction of 14" and the depth restriction of 11", is there anything else you would recommend over the current TD12M and SEOS-12 with DNA-360? These restrictions are due to the lack of depth behind my screen and can't really steal anymore from the room. Let's say, 4K budget for front three speakers. No exotic finishes needed. Will be painted flat black and go behind my screen.

With having $4k to spend on your front 3, I would look into the RAAL mated to an Autotek waveguide from DIY Sound Group, and cross it over to a pair of TD12X's in a 2.5-way configuration with an active crossover.

Or you could really go all out and run the RAAL with its waveguide from DIYSG and also use a nice dedicatee mid-range from the likes of Scan Speak, Seas, or Accuton. Pair that up with a nice AE woofer and cross actively.
post #32 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post


DIYers often ignore cabinet construction, finishing and speaker assembly and testing time. For any real business that means someone is doing this rather than some other day job, so someone is getting paid for all of the time involved. Don't forget another $60-100 for packing up the pair of speakers.

Materials to build a cabinet are rarely cost factors unless really exotic materials are used such as solid surface materials like say a big Wilson speaker. The CNC time into a stacked cabinet vs. a cabinet like the Noesis is a multiple, and that machine time is expensive. The machine time will often be much more than the material cost. I think you missed that the base finish is a veneer, and the painted finishes come at a premium. If you wanted the JTR's veneered you would suddenly be around $5k for the pair, and while they are quite effective, the JTRs use much less expensive and less exotic woofers than the AE drivers used in the Arcus or my own Catalysts. Veneering the stacked cabinets should be the easiest finish, as painting over all those seams means LOTS of prep work to insure the seams don't show through 2 weeks or 2 months after they are painted. Even a nice looking veneer finish takes a few days and multiple hours longer to complete than the industrial black finish of a JTR speaker. Most cabinet shops will tell you that finishing represents 1/3 to 3/4 the cost of a finished product depending on how involved the process is. Also consider that JTR should probably be charging more for the Noesis so consider that example as an extreme end of sale price vs raw parts cost.

To be clear, my point/issue is with the idea of the "huge markup on parts", not how well the money was put to use or it's sonic value.

I'm aware of all that goes into a product. I'm probably just completely out of tune with the retail market (certainly compared to you). I do agree that the Noesis is a very good value and I've suggested that there is no reason to clone it like some have wanted to do. It does represent competition to something like the Arcus though and price comparisons are fair. In fact, the Noesis, the last retail product I've looked at in detail, might be throwing off my perception of value in retail due to it being an outlier.

The Arcus does represent a unique product that I haven't seen much of in retail.

I do want to be clear that I know nothing of the Arcus or of Vapor Audio beyond the website. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt as far as the quality of the product itself. The designer certainly chose exceptional drivers. I wouldn't hesitate to suggest someone try to build a similar speaker. The only caveat would be the beaming above 10khz which might be a problem for some people.

I probably shouldn't have singled out Vapor. It was just sticker shock on my part and I don't want to bad mouth what is likely a very nice product. I wish Vapor the best.

AVS, as far as upgrading your SEOS-12 speakers, the TPL-150H would certainly be an option. You could experiment by taking your current speaker, flipping them upside down, placing the TPL-150H on top and running them on active DSP with the TD12's. Of course you would still be out a good chunk of change just to try the TPL-150Hs which is probably why you don't see many DIY designs using them.

Another option would be the smaller and more reasonable Aurum Cantus AST2560 using a custom horn and an 8" woofer like one of the B&C 8" drivers that are very nice. The AST2560 doesn't play as low as the TPL-150H (reason for the 8" woofer) but it is much shorter so its vertical beaming won't be an issue until about 14khz. It is also much cheaper at less than $200. Constructing a DIY horn is easier for a rectangular driver but of course it is still not trivial. The AST2560 does give up some sensitivity to the TPL-150.
post #33 of 56
Before settling on the TPL-150, we tried a few compression drivers for the studio monitor design and were not happy with the results. The TPL takes HF reproduction another step in quality without sacrificing sensitivity too much or total SPL capability. The only real drawback IMO is the limited vertical dispersion, but maybe that would be a plus too depending on listener distance and number or rows. Obviously, the H version can play lower than the regular version we used, BUT just because it can, does not mean you should. We have found that there is something going on around 1.5KHz, maybe some kind of resonance. We were never able to cross any lower without degrading the sound quality too much. This was after months of careful measuring and fine tuning of the system, listening to demo material and using them for sessions.

Navigate your way over to DIYaudio into the "planars & exotics" forum. There are quite a few people using and modding them there. Lots of good information if you search for TPL-150.

Greg
post #34 of 56
post #35 of 56
I also use the Raal 140-15 at home and the 70-20 in another pair of smaller studio monitors. They certainly beat the TPL for ultimate sound quality and WITH the aftermarket horn MAY keep up well enough in overall SPL capability for most peoples use, BUT the gentleman who makes the Raal does not recommend using the horn. I forget the reason why, but he does not encourage it. I think it is something about the increased air load on the diaphragm being presented with the horn in place.

Greg
post #36 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gbegland View Post

Before settling on the TPL-150, we tried a few compression drivers for the studio monitor design and were not happy with the results. The TPL takes HF reproduction another step in quality without sacrificing sensitivity too much or total SPL capability. The only real drawback IMO is the limited vertical dispersion, but maybe that would be a plus too depending on listener distance and number or rows. Obviously, the H version can play lower than the regular version we used, BUT just because it can, does not mean you should. We have found that there is something going on around 1.5KHz, maybe some kind of resonance. We were never able to cross any lower without degrading the sound quality too much. This was after months of careful measuring and fine tuning of the system, listening to demo material and using them for sessions.

Navigate your way over to DIYaudio into the "planars & exotics" forum. There are quite a few people using and modding them there. Lots of good information if you search for TPL-150.

Greg

With only one row of seating, the limited vertical dispersion should not be a problem. I have been looking and reading about different designs using these drivers. Thank you for the link.
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post #37 of 56
A member on AudioCirlce built a very nice speaker using the TPL-150h. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=8596
post #38 of 56
TPL-150H, AE TD10M, AE TD12S sounds like a fun combo.
post #39 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Face2 View Post

TPL-150H, AE TD10M, AE TD12S sounds like a fun combo.

Since I already have TD12M's, if I go 3-way, I would probably go; TD12M, TD6M and TPL-150. Then the question of even needing or wanting the waveguide on the TPL-150H, would have to be decided. I am still leaning toward the TD12M with TPL-150H. If I am not happy with it, I could always convert it over to a 3-way by adding the TD6M.
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post #40 of 56
If going 3 way I'd certainly go with the CSS planar and use the money saved to buy mids. But if going 2 way with a 12" then I'd check out how much lower the 150 can be crossed.

Either way based on what I've heard from the CSS I think you'll like what you get. Don't forget you're entering the realm of diminishing returns. Don't expect a night and day conversion.
post #41 of 56
Tux, I am just curious as to why you would suggest the CSS over the Beyma for a 3-way build?
post #42 of 56
Because (without having tried the Beyma) you can get the same result for half the money.
post #43 of 56
Do you have any distortion data on the CSS?
post #44 of 56
Looking at the data sheet, I think it's even more similar than I thought. Other than some dimension differences, they seem very similar.
post #45 of 56
I can pull my distortion figures off Holm, but I wasn't calibrated to an SPL or voltage. Ill bring it up and have a look.
post #46 of 56
Hey guys, this is Ryan of Vapor Audio. My google notifier sent me a link to this thread, and I wanted to post a few thoughts.

First, about building stacked ply cabinets - it is MUCH more difficult and time consuming than any other method of making a box. I know what some of you are thinking, take the pieces off the CNC, stack 'em up, boom ... done. I wish wink.gif Fact is, they come off the machine with small inconsistencies. The parts move when on the table, the bit gets smaller as it cuts, and end result is hours and hours of sanding to get everything back to flat. But the results are worth the work! In addition to the stacked ply cabinet, the Arcus has a 1" thick solid phenolic baffle which is very expensive material - about $300 sq/ft for 1" thick - and takes a $250 bit to cut on the CNC. Again, worth it though. All the DIY'ers here should make efforts to use exotic materials whenever possible and judge for yourself.

About the CSS planar, we've worked with it too. We've used both the Planar 1 and the Planar 2, and while they are nice tweeters, they're not in the same league as the Beyma AMT. The tonality of the CSS just isn't as pure and accurate, and it's obvious when comparing them side by side. Again, it is a nice tweeter that does a lot of things right for a decent price.

We are making a few small changes to the Arcus design btw, slightly taller cabinet to give the crossover more space, changing the internal shape and bracing layout, small stuff. The drivers themselves work very well together and will remain because of their unique abilities, and impressive result. The TD10M is very easy to work with, but the TPL 150/H took a lot more time to get right ... 1/2db differences can make or break the final result. Oh, and BTW the Arcus has a rear mounted AMT ambience tweeter as well.
post #47 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post


You guys are kidding right? I'm separating the audible benefit from the cost to manufacture here... Look at the cabinet construction, curved sides, crossover components and even the expensive binding posts. Huge markup is not what comes to my mind compared to most you will find in boutique stores. Yes, you could build much less expensive cabinets, but that's not what they are selling.

I would bet that most guys on this forum have never had to make payroll . . .
post #48 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie View Post

I would bet that most guys on this forum have never had to make payroll . . .

When you have no overhead, things look like they should be cheaper than they actual cost.
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post #49 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboFC3S View Post

Hey guys, this is Ryan of Vapor Audio. My google notifier sent me a link to this thread, and I wanted to post a few thoughts.

First, about building stacked ply cabinets - it is MUCH more difficult and time consuming than any other method of making a box. I know what some of you are thinking, take the pieces off the CNC, stack 'em up, boom ... done. I wish wink.gif Fact is, they come off the machine with small inconsistencies. The parts move when on the table, the bit gets smaller as it cuts, and end result is hours and hours of sanding to get everything back to flat. But the results are worth the work! In addition to the stacked ply cabinet, the Arcus has a 1" thick solid phenolic baffle which is very expensive material - about $300 sq/ft for 1" thick - and takes a $250 bit to cut on the CNC. Again, worth it though. All the DIY'ers here should make efforts to use exotic materials whenever possible and judge for yourself.

About the CSS planar, we've worked with it too. We've used both the Planar 1 and the Planar 2, and while they are nice tweeters, they're not in the same league as the Beyma AMT. The tonality of the CSS just isn't as pure and accurate, and it's obvious when comparing them side by side. Again, it is a nice tweeter that does a lot of things right for a decent price.

We are making a few small changes to the Arcus design btw, slightly taller cabinet to give the crossover more space, changing the internal shape and bracing layout, small stuff. The drivers themselves work very well together and will remain because of their unique abilities, and impressive result. The TD10M is very easy to work with, but the TPL 150/H took a lot more time to get right ... 1/2db differences can make or break the final result. Oh, and BTW the Arcus has a rear mounted AMT ambience tweeter as well.

The rear mounted tweeter is not listed in the specs. Is that a newly added item or just omitted from the specs?
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post #50 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

The rear mounted tweeter is not listed in the specs. Is that a newly added item or just omitted from the specs?

Poor website maintenance I'm afraid, it's been there since the beginning.
post #51 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboFC3S View Post

Poor website maintenance I'm afraid, it's been there since the beginning.
It is a nice speaker. I don't know enough about the rear tweeter design, but do like the TPL-150H paired with a TD10M or TD12M. You are using 1050hz crossing from the TPL-150H to the TD10M? That is pretty low? What does that do to the max SPL level?
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post #52 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

It is a nice speaker. I don't know enough about the rear tweeter design, but do like the TPL-150H paired with a TD10M or TD12M. You are using 1050hz crossing from the TPL-150H to the TD10M? That is pretty low? What does that do to the max SPL level?

The rear tweeter has it's own volume adjustment, it's for adding ambience to taste. Where you'd end up with it set depends a lot on your room.

Simulations are pretty worthless for tweeter SPL, but experience with the final product is that it has no impact on output capability. I've never heard 'strain' from the tweeter, even at 110-112db @ 10 feet listening distance.
post #53 of 56
I saw where someone several post back mentioned something about purchasing a custom horn for the Beyma, and i am curious, where can a custom horn be purchased?

If going for a 3-way, is the TD6 paired with something like a B&C 15" woofer a good choice? How does the TD6 compare to the likes of the ScanSpeak revelator, or the Seos W18?


I would absolutely love to
post #54 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboFC3S View Post

The rear tweeter has it's own volume adjustment, it's for adding ambience to taste. Where you'd end up with it set depends a lot on your room.

Simulations are pretty worthless for tweeter SPL, but experience with the final product is that it has no impact on output capability. I've never heard 'strain' from the tweeter, even at 110-112db @ 10 feet listening distance.

Thanks TurboFC3S. I may have to try that tweeter out. First, I will finish my subwoofer upgrade and masking system. These might be my spring project. smile.gif
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post #55 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

I saw where someone several post back mentioned something about purchasing a custom horn for the Beyma, and i am curious, where can a custom horn be purchased?

If going for a 3-way, is the TD6 paired with something like a B&C 15" woofer a good choice? How does the TD6 compare to the likes of the ScanSpeak revelator, or the Seos W18?


I would absolutely love to

Used both the Revelators and the TD6. Both are excellent sounding drivers. For ultimate dynamics, go with the TD6m. If the price is too steep for you, try the Eighteen Sound 6ND430.

Greg
post #56 of 56
Hi, I have not found any information on Arcus which ever mentioned this tweeter at the back. Can you give some more information about supposed benefits and share some photos. There are no single photo of the back of the Arcus speakers on Vapour website. Cheers, tomek



Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboFC3S View Post

The rear tweeter has it's own volume adjustment, it's for adding ambience to taste. Where you'd end up with it set depends a lot on your room.

Simulations are pretty worthless for tweeter SPL, but experience with the final product is that it has no impact on output capability. I've never heard 'strain' from the tweeter, even at 110-112db @ 10 feet listening distance.
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