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Why I calibrate day mode to D75

post #1 of 93
Thread Starter 
I'm sure this subject has come up here before, (but a search for "D75" got too many hits to be useful)..

I'm just a hobbyist but wonder if anyone professional uses non-D65 color for viewing in daylight. I just do not think D65 works in a room with sunlight coming through the windows.

Finally I got tired of trying to justify using it to my wife (when viewing in the room with daylight).

Some people reading this might have never even seen an accurately calibrated D75. For some reason manufactures often just boost blue and barely lower red and maybe achieve a 7500K but not a correct D75. (I think they're worried about losing enough red and displaying some greenish flesh tones). I guess once they decide to be off spec they figure anything goes.

I have a Panasonic VT50 with a day and night mode calibration. I calibrated the day mode brighter, slightly lower gamma, and to D75. When you switch between the two you do not get the blue look like you typically see from the temperature setting presets in most out-of-the-box sets.

I'm not sure to what degree it's because it's a precise D75 or to what degree it's because there's a corresponding increase in brightness. But you don't perceive any color change really at all when you go back and forth between the D65 night mode and D75 day mode. It just looks as if it brightens but like you increased the voltage to a projector bulb. But the D75 looks much more accurate in the day time, like that projector bulb was just too dim and was going out and you really needed to get a new one. Even in the dark I do not perceive it as a color shift, it just seems brighter and harsher and the dimmer D65 mode is nicer to watch.

Side note: I also went as far as to calibrate the Custom mode then put up gray patterns and adjust the grayscale until it looked like white to me in the room during daylight hours, (then went back and tweaked the gamma since changing the grays affects it). We have tinted windows that are largely green and the grays did not appear white to me until I jacked the green way too high. The result? Fantastic! I've never seen such accurate looking inaccurate color as I have now by matching my set to a bright white reference filling the room. The only problem with it was that as the sun sets it becomes visibly greener and greener so I'd really rather just use the D75 day mode which looks fine in all lights and switch to night mode when it's dark.
post #2 of 93
Thread Starter 
Oh another reason the higher color temperatures look so incorrect in TV's out of the box:

I've tried to make sense of the color decoding in some LCD's and realized what they had done was increase the color temperature of the gray scales while calibrating the color decoder to still produce "accurate" colors (as if it was D65). At least that's my theory about what they were doing. (If you think about it, that's really what red push was all about).
post #3 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbillen View Post

...snip...

The result? Fantastic! I've never seen such accurate looking inaccurate color as I have now by matching my set to a bright white reference filling the room. ....snip...

If it works for you, don't worry about it.

What kind of meters, software, signal source are you using?
post #4 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbillen View Post

Oh another reason the higher color temperatures look so incorrect in TV's out of the box:

I've tried to make sense of the color decoding in some LCD's and realized what they had done was increase the color temperature of the gray scales while calibrating the color decoder to still produce "accurate" colors (as if it was D65). At least that's my theory about what they were doing.


I had something typed up in response, but then decided it would be pointless to post it here. So, I'll just let the "real" experts chime in if they feel like it. smile.gif
post #5 of 93
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

If it works for you, don't worry about it.

What kind of meters, software, signal source are you using?

Like I said I'm DIY. i1 pro, AVSHD blue ray, and HFCR.

I wasn't so much worried about it as just curious for comments on my observation that a calibrated correct D75 does not appear as inaccurate as the "cool" temperature settings on most out of the box sets, (or - heh - the "normal" setting).
post #6 of 93
"Day mode" viewing environment conditions will always interfere with a reference image in one or many ways (usually many), regardless of picture adjustments or display type. Calibration for day mode is at best an attempt to only minimize compromises. Individual perceptions and preferences are purely that. What any one viewer "likes" should not be construed to qualify for broad promotion in a standards-based medium. The human visual system is so easily fooled, so anecdotal viewer perceptions must always be considered with suspicion. That's just the nature of the beast. What any one viewer "likes" is completely irrelevant in the context of image fidelity and program reproduction authenticity.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"
post #7 of 93
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

"Day mode" viewing environment conditions will always interfere with a reference image in one or many ways (usually many), regardless of picture adjustments or display type. Calibration for day mode is at best an attempt to only minimize compromises. Individual perceptions and preferences are purely that. What any one viewer "likes" should not be construed to qualify for broad promotion in a standards-based medium. The human visual system is so easily fooled, so anecdotal viewer perceptions must always be considered with suspicion. That's just the nature of the beast. What any one viewer "likes" is completely irrelevant in the context of image fidelity and program reproduction authenticity.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Well I guess that's a big argument for DIY calibrations smile.gif
post #8 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbillen View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

"Day mode" viewing environment conditions will always interfere with a reference image in one or many ways (usually many), regardless of picture adjustments or display type. Calibration for day mode is at best an attempt to only minimize compromises. Individual perceptions and preferences are purely that. What any one viewer "likes" should not be construed to qualify for broad promotion in a standards-based medium. The human visual system is so easily fooled, anecdotal viewer perceptions must always be considered with suspicion. That's just the nature of the beast. What any one viewer "likes" is completely irrelevant in the context of image fidelity and program reproduction authenticity.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Well I guess that's a big argument for DIY calibrations smile.gif
Far from it! Video display system calibration is defined by video industry standards and best practices. Professional calibrators are typically formally trained in imaging science and experienced with multiple display makes, models and types, along with total system parameters. They perform calibrations themselves, so you could say they are "do it yourself" practitioners, in a loose sort of way. They have gained through training, study, and experience a much broader scope of skill in dealing with compromised display designs and interfering viewing conditions to arrive at the most authentic image quality possible under conflicting circumstances. That description of such talent would be a usable definition for the "art" side of display system alignment. Guessing rarely measures up in a craft centered in technical precision and the pursuit of maximum fidelity.
post #9 of 93
Dbillen- you will drive your wife and yourself CRAZY trying too get colors right on a tv.You can NOT get white the right color in a bright room.it's a bit easier later in the evening a few hours after sunset in pitch black room.Your best to get a black and white tv or tv that has the color turned down,or best is another reference tv that you know looks good(color turned down to zero).Then match your vt50 black and white screen to the other tv.You wil need too have both tvs running at the same time.

As for 7500 I believe some tvs will look better with different settings.On mine if I made it more red and less blue(lower color temp),then on full white screen it would look awful.
Edited by Vic12345 - 8/12/13 at 3:05pm
post #10 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic12345 View Post

Dbillen- you will drive your wife and yourself CRAZY trying too get colors right on a tv.You can NOT get white the right color in a bright room.it's a bit easier later in the evening a few hours after sunset in pitch black room.Your best to get a black and white tv or tv that has the color turned down,or best is another reference tv that you know looks good(color turned down to zero).Then match your vt50 black and white screen to the other tv.You wil need too have both tvs running at the same time.

he has a meter (i1 pro)
post #11 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbillen View Post

I'm sure this subject has come up here before, (but a search for "D75" got too many hits to be useful)..

I'm just a hobbyist but wonder if anyone professional uses non-D65 color for viewing in daylight. I just do not think D65 works in a room with sunlight coming through the windows.

Finally I got tired of trying to justify using it to my wife (when viewing in the room with daylight).

Some people reading this might have never even seen an accurately calibrated D75. For some reason manufactures often just boost blue and barely lower red and maybe achieve a 7500K but not a correct D75. (I think they're worried about losing enough red and displaying some greenish flesh tones). I guess once they decide to be off spec they figure anything goes.

I have a Panasonic VT50 with a day and night mode calibration. I calibrated the day mode brighter, slightly lower gamma, and to D75. When you switch between the two you do not get the blue look like you typically see from the temperature setting presets in most out-of-the-box sets.

I'm not sure to what degree it's because it's a precise D75 or to what degree it's because there's a corresponding increase in brightness. But you don't perceive any color change really at all when you go back and forth between the D65 night mode and D75 day mode. It just looks as if it brightens but like you increased the voltage to a projector bulb. But the D75 looks much more accurate in the day time, like that projector bulb was just too dim and was going out and you really needed to get a new one. Even in the dark I do not perceive it as a color shift, it just seems brighter and harsher and the dimmer D65 mode is nicer to watch.

Side note: I also went as far as to calibrate the Custom mode then put up gray patterns and adjust the grayscale until it looked like white to me in the room during daylight hours, (then went back and tweaked the gamma since changing the grays affects it). We have tinted windows that are largely green and the grays did not appear white to me until I jacked the green way too high. The result? Fantastic! I've never seen such accurate looking inaccurate color as I have now by matching my set to a bright white reference filling the room. The only problem with it was that as the sun sets it becomes visibly greener and greener so I'd really rather just use the D75 day mode which looks fine in all lights and switch to night mode when it's dark.

bluer is not actually brighter (that's just an illusion because of how our eyes work)

usually a day mode cranks up contrast/backlight to actually increase light output (with possibly a brighter gamma as well)
post #12 of 93
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

bluer is not actually brighter (that's just an illusion because of how our eyes work)

usually a day mode cranks up contrast/backlight to actually increase light output (with possibly a brighter gamma as well)

You're right, I did all that. I also calibrated it with larger APL patterns to do better with the brighter levels and TV as a source (more TV in the daytime).

More than anything I was just interested in the fact that a proper D75 didn't look especially blue or off. It could just be my room that it looks more correct in the daylight.
post #13 of 93
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic12345 View Post

Dbillen- you will drive your wife and yourself CRAZY...

Too late frown.gif
post #14 of 93
D75, D93, D1,000,000...it's not reference so do whatever you want. It doesn't matter anymore.

The difference between a day/night mode is all about dynamic range...different contrast, brightness, gamma, and backlight settings.
post #15 of 93
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdoostil View Post

D75, D93, D1,000,000...it's not reference so do whatever you want. It doesn't matter anymore.

Well, see, that's exactly what prompted this thread. I don't think so anymore. I think a correct "D" temperature change subjectively works better than some arbitrary one. I can't even see it. I've been watching calibrated sets for years. I've always found the higher color temperature settings off looking and shook my head at them. But I can go back and forth from my D65 mode to my D75 mode and I had to go check it again to be certain it was D75.

It's like a bulb on a dimmer or something. It is changing its color output as you brighten and dim it. If it got greener or something as you turned it up it would seem odd. But if it travels that expected curve it seems natural.

Believe me, I'm not suggesting that anyone professionally calibrating a rec 709 display device for someone else or to use professionally should ever calibrate to anything but D65 for any mode.
Quote:
The difference between a day/night mode is all about dynamic range...different contrast, brightness, gamma, and backlight settings.

I did all that. then tried D75 on top of it and was amazed.
post #16 of 93
It's all good. If you like it, go for it. Are at reference for nighttime viewing?
post #17 of 93
Thread Starter 
[quote name="jdoostil" url="/t/1485705/why-i-calibrate-day-mode-to-d75#post_23623131"Are at reference for nighttime viewing?[/quote]

As close as I can get it. I put at D65, dark (for night viewing and to eliminate APL as a factor as much as possible), and used smaller APL patterns, which weirdly seem to matter in color calibration - not just gamma.

This plasma VT50 is gorgeous in the dark for movies, but I'm always skeptical about the bright image because of all the APL issues that afflict the calibration.
post #18 of 93
I am sure it looks fine on your set but a very nice day mode can be achieved at 6500k, as the previous poster mentioned the its about an increase in light output primarily. In the end it is to each his own
Edited by chunon - 8/13/13 at 10:21am
post #19 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

......In the end it is too [sic] each his own
Why does this fallacy keep being repeated over and over in this section of the forum? Such sentiment is promoted and perpetuated throughout the rest of the forum and consumer land at large. Usually people interested in calibration and technical issues aren't so right-brained. Reason, logic, precision, accuracy, authenticity, fidelity, predictability, integrity, etc., are virtues for the typical video engineering and technical crowd. The fundamental objective or "end" of calibration is alignment to video industry standards so signal integrity is preserved. In video program reproduction each viewer doesn't have his own standards. Otherwise there is no such thing as a faithfully reproduced image.

The main reason why this thread does not legitimately propose a new method for display system adjustment is because we know next to nothing about the viewing environment and how it is likely contaminating the viewer's color perception in bright viewing conditions. Color analysis instruments don't measure a viewer's perception of a display system. They can measure ambient light and display performance, but not what occurs in the visual cortex. D75 may not actually be the right white point to compensate accurately for the room effect. It may actually be somewhere between D65 and D75. This article describes the issues that may be at the root of the OP's method: 'The Importance Of Viewing Environment Conditions In A Reference Display System.' This "sticky" thread at the top of this section of the forum addresses the topic as well: 'How Viewing Environment Conditions Can Corrupt Or Enhance Your Calibration'

"Trust your eyes" is another fallacy that pops up repeatedly in posts from misinformed video hobbyists. The links supplied also discuss how easily fooled human color perception can be. This reality is not intuitive. It occurs without the viewer being consciously aware of it. Distortion is accepted as correct until it can be objectively demonstrated to be otherwise. If anecdotal perceptions, preferences, and intuition were to be our rule or "end," we wouldn't need science or measuring instruments of any kind. Carpenters wouldn't need a tape measure. Cooks wouldn't need a thermometer. Submarine captains wouldn't need sonar. Editors wouldn't need a dictionary. "Each" could legitimately have "his own" way of doing things that he enjoyed and seemed right to him. What a mess! AV science wouldn't even exist.
post #20 of 93
I only meant that comment in regards to it is his display, not that it is okay to deviate from the calibration standard.
post #21 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

I only meant that comment in regards to it is his display, not that it is okay to deviate from the calibration standard.
We all know you meant well. However, at what point is it really necessary to remind the OP, or anyone else, that his TV is his TV to do with as he pleases. Why should anyone be squeamish about confidently and assertively telling a display owner what they need to do in order to have an accurate picture? Here we are in the 'Display Calibration' section of the forum and we should be sensitive about telling someone what they should do to achieve image fidelity with their equipment? Hypersensitivity is not a virtue. It is one of the more destructive features of modern culture. Polite society is a worthy goal, but only up to a point. Pussyfooting around a plain technical reality for any perceived need to foster forum harmony is taking a regard for others' feelings to an unreasonable extreme. I don't assume forum members are emotional wimps, but reasonable adults who can handle controversy and debate without a pat on the head or their self esteem massaged. The whole objective in education is to change minds from ignorance or misunderstanding to correct knowledge and its effective application. Consumers don't understand video by osmosis and intuition. They may think they do, but don't until they are taught. If their ego or weak emotional control retards or prevents them from learning new perspectives, and a change in preconceived notions of reality when told the truth, that's their problem. Queue Don Henley's 'Get Over It.'
Edited by GeorgeAB - 8/14/13 at 12:07pm
post #22 of 93
Point taken we all have our own style smile.gif
post #23 of 93
The source is d65. Use d75 and you modify the source. Use d65 and you do not modify the source.

d65 happens to be a fairly common range for daylight color temperature... though if you consider "daylight hours" to be dawn to dusk, on a clear day the measured d-point (not D, it's d), the d-point has a HUGE range from probably d20 to d80. Throw clouds and overcast into the mix and you expand the range even farther. So why would you think d75 is any better than d65 for daytime viewing? Are you ALWAYS viewing the content on days when there is a strong blue bias to the sunlight, say at noon? Or maybe you watch TV in the daytime only from 6am to 6:15 am (where d75 wouldn't be accurate anyway). Or maybe you only watch TV in the afternoon from 3pm to 3:30 pm when the light bounces off your neighbor's yellow house, right into your windows.

I mean... deciding d75 for video calibration for daytime viewing is just a total and complete crapshoot and is absolutely no better than picking any other d-point for calibration. But because it went through some sort of thought process you devised, you are predisposed to prefer it to a different and more appropriate d65 calibration. Daylight messes with what you see, but it does NOT change what you see to a d75 source... not even remotely close to it. You could devise all sorts of mental gymnastics to decide on a d-point. You might decide that since 10 and 2 are roughly equivalent in color temp (assuming no effects from nearby trees or grass or body of water or neighboring house painted anything but neutral gray) that because you get the same sort of color temp 2 times per day, that whatever the color temp is at those times will be your calibration point. So you could setup an 18% gray reference target and use your meter to measure it at 10 and 2 every day for 365 days and average your measurements to get your d-point. Anything less would be just silly. But no more silly than doing all those measurements to get an average because that is silly too. The source does not change when the room light changes. The source is still d65 and should be displayed at d65. Ideally in a light-controlled setup, but when light control is not possible, d65 is still the best choice because that's what the source is encoded with. Light does not make the color change, but it will affect your perception of the color --- in COMPLETELY random fashion and that randomness will change from minute to minute while you are viewing. So to do what you are doing RIGHT, you'd need an incident light detector that was measuring the light hitting your face while you are watching TV during the day and adjusting the calibration of the TV in real-time to compensate. But even THAT would be wrong because the source is still d65 and you can't make it look any better when there is light in the room... though you may need the images to be brighter for daytime viewing, you don't need the images to shift color for daytime viewing.

And by the way... let's say you did determine that the light at 10 and 2 was d75... you might also find that at 11 and 1 the light will measure d65. So NOW which point do you use for your daylight calibration?

This whole topic is slippery as your underwear full of eels... and equally wrong.
post #24 of 93
Excellent details, Doug. Great clarity. By the way, since you brought it up again, the CIE D-point colorimetry designation uses a capital "D" on the CIE's official web site: http://www.cie.co.at/index.php?i_ca_id=484 . Where do you find this lower case "d" information?
post #25 of 93
This thread reminds me of how things were before time zones made sense of the use of clocks.
Depending on where you were in the world from an East > West point of view the time of day was different.
I live in the UK so the time in Cornwall was different from the time in Yorkshire.

How could any service that needs an accurate timetable be assembled?
My clock was showing a later time than the one in Cornwall because the same sun we used as reference was being seen differently by observers on the revolving earth determined by its constant speed and not in time zone jumps.
So the UK was made a definite timezone (Greenwich Mean Time) which allowed us all to use the same clock time and synchronise our individual clocks accordingly.
It was incorrect unless you live in all points due North and South of Greenwich but it has massive benefits.

Now our Train Timetables meant something to everyone in the UK.

Perhaps the choice of D (or d) 65 was necessary for the same reason.
Perhaps calibrating to 6500K is rarely constantly ideal for our personal viewing unless total control over ambient light is available but at least the things we want to view have been made with the same constant in mind (like our time zone).

Taking the analogy with clocks further, I suppose I could still use my actual time relative to GMT and make it say 1 minute and 48 seconds slower but everything that I use from a time perspective would be wrong.

Just an opinion of a none expert.
post #26 of 93
Here's what Wikipedia has to say about illuminant D65

D65 corresponds roughly to a midday sun in Western Europe / Northern Europe, hence it is also called a daylight illuminant. As any standard illuminant is represented as a table of averaged spectrophotometric data, any light source which statistically has the same relative spectral power distribution (SPD) can be considered a D65 light source. There are no actual D65 light sources, only simulators. The quality of a simulator can be assessed with the CIE Metamerism Index.[4][5]
post #27 of 93
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post


...I mean... deciding d75 for video calibration for daytime viewing is just a total and complete crapshoot and is absolutely no better than picking any other d-point for calibration. But because it went through some sort of thought process you devised, you are predisposed to prefer it to a different and more appropriate d65 calibration...

I work in the audio industry and completely understand the need for correct signal duplication.

There's an entire pipeline involved in getting a movie to the TV in someones home. Throughout that process all of the equipment involved must be calibrated as well as possible to exact standards or errors will creep into the signal. If some technician makes a subjective call that the image needs more green it's an ignorant mistake.

If someone is paying you to calibrate their home set, it is your responsibility as a professional to calibrate it exactly to standards. They could tinker with the settings all they wish to make it look subjectively pretty. That's not what you're being paid to do.

But when I'm watching my television in my den I'm not passing my image errors down a production pipeline, and I'm not a professional being paid to ensure that it's accurate. D75 looks more accurate to me and others watching. All day. So why not?

Now I titled the thread a hair provocatively, (you must on the internet to get a response), but in fact I was merely curious if anyone was aware of any validity to this.

Especially since manufactures across the board seem to believe D65 is not good for viewing in a lit room.

It reminds me of audio and the "smiley face". In this business everyone knows that consumers do not like the sound of a correct "flat" EQ response, they want gain in the bass and treble. Engineers find it pathetic, but manufactures give the people what they want. You pretty much have to purchase professional studio equipment to get true sound reproduction.

But this has been researched long ago. In fact the subjective perception of audio loudness is not linear across the frequency spectrum. Music is generally created in all cases louder than it's normally listened to, (most popular music must at least be loud enough to compete with the drums). So when you play back an accurate reproduction of audio at a "normal" listening level, it would still measure as accurate on any equipment, but subjectively you don't hear it accurately. You hear too much mid-range and the desire to increase bass and treble (the smiley face) is merely a desire to restore a correct sound.

So my better-phrased question here was whether or not there is a similar "subjectively valid" reason for using a higher color temperature in a lit room. Because it looks better to me and all the manufactures do it, just like the smiley face sounds better to most people and all the manufactures do it.

But - eh - the answer seems to be a resounding "NO!" smile.gif
post #28 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbillen View Post

[quote name="jdoostil" url="/t/1485705/why-i-calibrate-day-mode-to-d75#post_23623131"Are at reference for nighttime viewing?

As close as I can get it. I put at D65, dark (for night viewing and to eliminate APL as a factor as much as possible), and used smaller APL patterns, which weirdly seem to matter in color calibration - not just gamma.

This plasma VT50 is gorgeous in the dark for movies, but I'm always skeptical about the bright image because of all the APL issues that afflict the calibration.[/quote]




I put a calibrated LCD display next to my 65VT50 for comparison purposes and let me tell you that when the picture goes bright, you can really see how much the 65VT50 lowers the brightness. It is more than I would have thought. For my viewing (no hockey games) it only is bothersome when faces are forced darker when the overall scene is very bright.
post #29 of 93
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

I recently found out that the mastering process is no where near as precise as we would like to believe it is.

I was horrified once when I watched a "making of" (the movie 'Seven'), and the guy editing the film transfer was just fiddling around with sat and tint levels. Though I know some decisions have to be made for handling the gamut change.

BUT - we got to at least believe the person making those calls is viewing a calibrated-to-reference image. I'd hate to think he set his monitor to D75 because it looked better to him smile.gif
Quote:
I think something else that's being totally missed is how compounding errors (meter, software, room lighting, etc.) might be corrected by choosing a slightly different target. Who's to say that your net picture isn't more correct than by going by the numbers. Charts do lie, you know.

I agree, though I also agree you can't "know". I've tried lots of things with lots of TV's. Invariably when I change content or lighting conditions change or something I put it back to calibrated. The incorrect fix was only better in context. But this D75 thing really has amazed me. It even looks fine in the dark, (though I don't use it except in the day when my wife is watching. She has a weird need for peoples faces to look like they are covered in normal flesh - like they look with D65 in the dark).
post #30 of 93
This is all simply ridiculous guys. If you want to see what you are suppose to see, use D65 and rec709 gamut.

If you don't care fiddle away, but please don't claim that you've discovered some new concept. There are so many scientific flaws with arguments made in favor of using something else in this thread. Also misconceptions about how professional colorists work (hint: it's their job to change tint and saturation of scenes). It just sounds like a 3rd grader trying to argue with their teacher that their comic books should count for summer reading, even though they aren't on the summer reading list.


Fidelity has nothing to do with personal preference, and cannot be judged by eye.
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