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DIY black screen tests - Page 12

post #331 of 344

Well, I am always astonished how hard it seems to be to just say "sorry, if I came across in the wrong way"

post #332 of 344
As it stands, making a 100" diag black screen requires anywhere between $3-$450 in material costs also depending one what combination of materials anyone chooses to use from the last 2 or so pages of this thread. And every passing day or week, newer or different combinations of materials are tried and new standards are reached.

Right now, the deepest black acceptable screen consists of the BRL 5600, Mac tac film and wall art combination. Viewing angles better than 60 degs are being achieved, the images made are not "fuzzy" or "washed out" and there is no adverse colour push that can't be corrected with the right amount of calibration.

fact is this, if using a black screen like this requires that the DIYer has a projector with a lumen output of over 1800lm, speands some time (naturally, hardly anyone buying a projector wouldnt tweak something in image settings) tweaking the image to get it to what will become a black screen standard; then by all means, that is what it would mean to have a screen like this. This is not about popularity, its about having the option to do it. let those that want to take it on take it on and let those that don't don't. let those that would rather buy a $3000 screen buy one, let those that would rather go with a $2-500 paint option do it. There are challenges in every option considered and there is room enough for everyone. I don't know who wrote the rule book in what kinda lumen output every screen must support, I mean if I am going to buy a ferrari i would go in knowing that a change of tires will cost me more than that of a honda.

The videos in the last two pages speak for themselves, and those videos aren't even optimized. a lot has changed in the last 5/0yrs. not just new approaches to material combinations but also new advances in PJ light output. Can anyone really look at the images observed here in the last two pages and flat out say that what has been accomplished by cylab so far is "unacceptable"? Compared to what???????
post #333 of 344
Have you guys seen this thread? May increase ideas
http://www.avforums.com/threads/diy-daytime-screen-on-a-budget.1812953/
post #334 of 344

@Lord

While I appreaciate your loyalism, MM has his points. And for sure we should create a painted comparison sample to look beyond our own nose...

 

Especially since you want to use a short throw projector, you might not benefit so much from retro-reflector. Btw. what model do you have and what would be your installation setup and throwing angles?

 

@VisionxOrb

Thanks for posting. Yeah I've seen that before and using something like this on a curved surface would probably give a nice day-time-performance.

post #335 of 344
Quote:
Originally Posted by cylab View Post

Thanks for stopping by and... err... well... encouraging us wink.gif

I admit, that I did't investigate paint options too much, because I don't like messing around with paint. It ends up being in places I don't want it to be, like under my shoes...

Understandable. Just a couple weeks ago I tracked some sticky dust onto a Linoleum floor, and spent 10 minutes rubbing it off. biggrin.gif As for everywhere else, agreed....you have to mask off an area in any existing home with adequate plastic and/or cardboard. It's something that does go along with spray painting. The trick being to minimize the dust by using both proper equipment and application technique.
But while I will / do address some specific questions posed about "paint", this not being a thread about SF should dictate that I do not elaborate or even unintentionally steer the direction of discourse away from it's intended path.
Quote:
It looks like a lot of people in this forum favor Silver Fire. Other options I see are Screen Goo and maybe the stuff from the digital1crystal guy, so what paint option has a black/dark grey daylight or ambient appearance and produces a bright enough picture for a 1600 lumen projector?

At the sizes your talking about (100" diagonal or less) only a very few, and most all of those are quite retro-reflective...to a fault. And Grainy too. Silver Fire was / is designed to mitagate or absolve those issue, while allowing performance at far larger screen sizes. But the limitation you present....using a PJ with 1600 lumen output (...or less...) is both outdated and overly limiting. Reference LCD / LyCos PJs like JVC have lower lumen w/mega contrast values, but as such are intended to be used more with reference "White" screens in dedicated light controlled circumstances. . Not many who spend such sums as they cost are wanting or are willing to degrade the image with attenuation or imparted artifacts. Most every current DLP has more lumen output. If this project is centered on the wrong type PJs or outmoded models...it is misdirected at best.
Quote:
- Whats the principle behind the paints?

Translucent metallic infused Gray hued base applied over a bright white substrate, made adjustable via the measured introduction of a loosely mixed, semi-translucent colorant comprised of separate RGBY Primary Tints.
Quote:
- Just the ingredients or do they produce nano-structures while drying, which results in optical properties?

The loosely mixed RGBY Colorant stays in a suspension and those components do react independently to the various components of Digitally projected light. To a smaller extent, so also do the different metallic components. All of which depend upon the "looseness" and translucency achieved by the use of a copious amount of water and Polyurethane. It is both proven and Patented...although still disputed by some. That is why actual use and observations by end users are determined to be the best testimonials...not what some take a conspicuous effort to call "biased claims" by the creators. That's about as far as it should be addressed on this thread to avoid re-purposing the discussion.
Quote:
- Does it need spraying to get good homogeneus results?

In the darker, most effective versions....yes. Rolling aligns the metallic particles to the perpendicular, resulting in too much sheen, likewise with the thinness causing roller marks. Spraying distributes everything evenly and creates a flatter, more diffuse surface.
Quote:
- Do you need different layers of different paint?

If the substrate is already a smooth, bright white...no. Otherwise priming or painting such a layer is required. The latest version being experimented doe harken back to the old school method of applying a pure Silver Metallic Base, but that application is still pre-Beta.
Quote:
Share some links?
- What exactly did you do with the shower liner?

It was used as both a diffusion layer for Mirrored substrates, Silver & Aluminum metallic paints, as well as a simple stand alone solution, for both Front & Rear projection. Some of the products you have discovered might indeed be better for such a job.
Quote:
- What exact Liner did you use?

The best choice found came from Sears. That was about 3 years ago, so finding the exact link or name escapes me at present. Nothing like a unsuccessful attempt to delegate a material to the scrap heap of memory.
Quote:
- How thick was it?

2-3 mils
Quote:
- Did you use it as rear or front-projection screen?

See previous comment.
Quote:
- Did you combine it with another (reflective) layer?

Only solid color substrates, mirrors, Mylar, or painted solids, no transparent films.

Comparing the two approaches is absolutely a case of Apples / Oranges....but there is a valid premise behind combining the two in some manner or degree.

Lastly, bear in mind that doing the sort of thing your doing at or under 100" is not that difficult for some applications. But granted, doing so with a under powered PJ, and or one with poorer contrast specifications is a daunting project. No one can dispute that...and my comment above referring to "misdirection" is more a personal observation based on my own practical experiences over hundreds of cases and taking into consideration current models and marketing trends....and should not be construed as being a blanket assessment of net worth or validity.

I'm open....just less than wholly optimistic. But fully supportive of the effort...brook no mistake about that.
post #336 of 344

Thanks for answering my questions! I might stop by in the SiverFire thread to ask some more.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Lastly, bear in mind that doing the sort of thing your doing at or under 100" is not that difficult for some applications. But granted, doing so with a under powered PJ, and or one with poorer contrast specifications is a daunting project. No one can dispute that...and my comment above referring to "misdirection" is more a personal observation based on my own practical experiences over hundreds of cases and taking into consideration current models and marketing trends....and should not be construed as being a blanket assessment of net worth or validity.

I'm open....just less than wholly optimistic. But fully supportive of the effort...brook no mistake about that.

 

The thing that everybody on this thread needs to understand is, that for me, this is just a hobby project with uncertain outcome. I have no intentions of creating a revolutionary new product or generically solving a problem. The whole motivation for me is to see what can be achieved with this approach and what are the principles behind it. It might lead to something, but that would be a sideeffect, not the purpose of this experimenting. Hence I regard the attribute "misdirection" as misdirected ;)

 

So I can only encourage everybody that wants to create a screen to don't hold your breath, but try out the various available options yourself. Just buy available materials and paints in small amounts, create some samples and go with the one that suits you best.

post #337 of 344
Quote:
Originally Posted by cylab View Post

@Lord
While I appreaciate your loyalism, MM has his points. And for sure we should create a painted comparison sample to look beyond our own nose...

Especially since you want to use a short throw projector, you might not benefit so much from retro-reflector. Btw. what model do you have and what would be your installation setup and throwing angles?

Using an Optoma GT760. 3500lm. can get a 100" diagonal screen from around 3ft from the wall. have the PJ on a low table. Its a recent purchase.
post #338 of 344

Hmm, this would mean that you'll have a throw angle up to 60° in the upper corners and the 5600 looses half the reflectivity at 30°, so I doubt you will have retro-reflectivity in the corners at all. This would lead to a inhomogeneous illumination with the brightest spot the near to the projector :/

 

But at 3500lm you could try some other matte black materials like http://www.ebay.com/bhp/matte-black-vinyl-wrap, or look for dark matte paint options...

post #339 of 344
Quote:
Originally Posted by cylab View Post

Hmm, this would mean that you'll have a throw angle up to 60° in the upper corners and the 5600 looses half the reflectivity at 30°, so I doubt you will have retro-reflectivity in the corners at all. This would lead to a inhomogeneous illumination with the brightest spot the near to the projector :/

But at 3500lm you could try some other matte black materials like http://www.ebay.com/bhp/matte-black-vinyl-wrap, or look for dark matte paint options...

Interesting... so are yu suggesting that i would not need a retro-reflective film at all? Or any combination of films? So all i may need is just the matte black film and maybe a diffuse layer? wouldn't that mean that my image will be too dark overall and i will also have a very poor viewing cone?
post #340 of 344

I can't give you definitive answers here, because I just have my Benq and the experience during this project, just try it out yourself (get some smaller samples for cheap). A matte black surface will still produce an image just like a matte black car is not uniformly black when viewing in the sun. A bad viewing cone is caused by the reflectivity, so having a matte (diffuse) surface helps with that.

post #341 of 344

Did a new long and boring video: http://youtu.be/Hyorbqs2uIc#t=0

 

Top Row
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
o Sample J
  - Oralite 5600-70 Black Retro-Reflection Film
  - Opal/Milk Window Film 72% VLT
  - Oracal Wall Art 638 Print Vinyl
o Sample N
  - Oralite 5500-70 Black Retro-Reflection Film
  - 2x Hexis S5DEPM Frozen Window Film
  - Oracal Wall Art 638 Print Vinyl  

o Sample O
  - Oralite 5600-70 Black Retro-Reflection Film
  - Hexis S5DEPM Frozen Window Film
  - Oracal Wall Art 638 Print Vinyl  
 
Middle Row
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
o Sample P
  - Oralite 5600-70 Black Retro-Reflection Film
  - Hexis S5DEPM Frozen Window Film
  - Rosco #450 3/8 White Diffuser
  - Oracal Wall Art 638 Print Vinyl  

o Sample Q
  - Oralite 5500-10 White Retro-Reflection Film
  - 70% VLT Window Tint
  - Oracal Wall Art 638 Print Vinyl  

 

Bottom Row
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
o Sample L
  - Oralite 5600-70 Black Retro-Reflection Film
  - MacTac MACal 798-02 Print Vinyl
  - Oracal Wall Art 638 Print Vinyl

o Sample R
  - Oralite 5600-70 Black Retro-Reflection Film
  - Oracal Wall Art 638 Print Vinyl
o Sample S
  - Oralite 5600-70 Black Retro-Reflection Film
  - Rosco #450 3/8 White Diffuser
  - Oracal Wall Art 638 Print Vinyl  

o Sample T
  - Oralite 5500 Backside (Metal Coating on Glass Beads)
  - 70% VLT Window Tint
  - Oracal Wall Art 638 Print Vinyl  


Edited by cylab - 4/11/14 at 12:47am
post #342 of 344
Link saying video has been removed because its to long??????
post #343 of 344

Went to bed while uploading. Google was complaining that I need to have a verified account to be able to publish longer videos. Did that, so the link works now.

post #344 of 344
Quote:
Originally Posted by cylab View Post

Went to bed while uploading. Google was complaining that I need to have a verified account to be able to publish longer videos. Did that, so the link works now.

Thankyou smile.gif
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