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NEW RANGE JVC 2014 - Page 35

post #1021 of 3990
But going by Cine4Home's numbers for last years models, if the DI only operates over the range of the manual iris, they don't come anywhere close to 10x improvement, it's at best 4x I think (I ran those numbers many pages back).

One would hope (expect?) that the DI would be a separate mechanism from the manual iris (it was on my BenQ W5000), thus it would give the same amount of benefit (multiplier) independent of the manual iris setting, or at the very least that the DI operates over a different range than the manual iris.
post #1022 of 3990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I am just going on what Mike is reporting and I agree that assuming this holds true in the production models, the ILA just got much less interesting for me obviously, lol. Of course it would still be useful for my 2.35 since I start with a -10 iris setting, but if it holds true that it does not go lower than the -15 setting, all I am left with in the 49 for 1.78 would be a 10k native increase which is great, but how much real world difference would this be going from a native spec of 50,000:1 vs 60,000:1?

As far as the 6k, 1.2mil and 1.5 mil spec, who knows exactly how JVC came up with that. It would be great to get everyone on the same page with this though so we know exactly what we are getting for those who preorder.

I am trying to get confirmation on that, because that does not sound right to me. I would think when the manual iris is closed down to say -6, the dynamic iris would not open more than the -6 setting makes sense. It does seem to me that the dynamic iris would have to close down more than -15 to be able to get much higher than native contrast.
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post #1023 of 3990
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

I am trying to get confirmation on that, because that does not sound right to me. I would think when the manual iris is closed down to say -6, the dynamic iris would not open more than the -6 setting makes sense. It does seem to me that the dynamic iris would have to close down more than -15 to be able to get much higher than native contrast.

No doubt. Thanks for checking into this.
post #1024 of 3990
I think I already said all that. The problem is the JVC US guys do not obsess over the details of the II like we do. The important thing to them I suspect is the new on/off numbers they can use with the II engaged There are very few in the entire world that understand or care about what we are talking about here. Most people wanted brighter and blacker. Not limiting brightness. Its those AVS crazies with some question or suggestion that only a very few care about.
post #1025 of 3990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I am just going on what Mike is reporting and I agree that assuming this holds true in the production models, the ILA just got much less interesting for me obviously, lol. Of course it would still be useful for my 2.35 since I start with a -10 iris setting, but if it holds true that it does not go lower than the -15 setting, all I am left with in the 49 for 1.78 would be a 10k native increase which is great, but how much real world difference would this be going from a native spec of 50,000:1 vs 60,000:1?

As far as the 6k, 1.2mil and 1.5 mil spec, who knows exactly how JVC came up with that. It would be great to get everyone on the same page with this though so we know exactly what we are getting for those who preorder.

Mike said that when he made the written utterance that you are quoting, he didn't know for sure about whether as reported the II would close down to smaller than -15 and he didn't want to start another round of questions. He said he didn't know but would find out. Others have reported when JVC said at the show, the II closes down more than the smallest opening you can set manually. Others have explained why this has to be given JVCs err conservative number for on/off contrast with the II engaged. from a math scientific engineering perspective, the II has to close down more. Verification from Mike will come but we already know the answer.
Edited by mark haflich - 10/18/13 at 12:12pm
post #1026 of 3990
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Mike said that when he made the written utterance that you are quoting, it didn't know for sure about whether as reported the II would close down to smaller than -15 and he didn't want to start another round of questions. He said he didn't know but would find out. Others have reported when JVC said at the show, the II closes down more than the smallest opening you can set manually. Others have explained why this has to be given JVCs err conservative number for on/off contrast with the II engaged. from a math scientific engineering perspective, the II has to close down more. Verification from Mike will come but we already know the answer.
Yeppers!

So, we know it is possible to set brightness in the DI mode. (Yippie!!)
We know the iris is not loud, -- it sounded quiet at CEDIA.

We also know one cannot get max native contrast at any aperture other than -15.....IOW, native contrast decreases as the iris opens.
RS57 example:
Iris set at -15, distance = max throw => CR ~ 120K:1
Iris set at -10, distance = mid throw +> CR ~ 50K:1 (somewhere in this neighborhood)

It therefore follows that one cannot obtain max dynamic contrast ratio (DCR) unless one is achieving max native contrast.....the achievable dynamic CR will also decrease with iris opening.

RS57 example:
Iris set at -15, distance = max throw => CR ~ 120K:1 then DCR ~ 1.200,000:1
Iris set at -10, distance = mid throw => CR ~ 50K:1 then DCR ~ 500,000:1
post #1027 of 3990
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Mike said that when he made the written utterance that you are quoting, he didn't know for sure about whether as reported the II would close down to smaller than -15 and he didn't want to start another round of questions. He said he didn't know but would find out. Others have reported when JVC said at the show, the II closes down more than the smallest opening you can set manually. Others have explained why this has to be given JVCs err conservative number for on/off contrast with the II engaged. from a math scientific engineering perspective, the II has to close down more. Verification from Mike will come but we already know the answer.


I hear ya Mark/Geof and logically that all makes sense. I would just like to hear it from the horses mouth to feel 100% confident which I am sure you can understand.
post #1028 of 3990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Yeppers!

So, we know it is possible to set brightness in the DI mode. (Yippie!!)
We know the iris is not loud, -- it sounded quiet at CEDIA.

We also know one cannot get max native contrast at any aperture other than -15.....IOW, native contrast decreases as the iris opens.
RS57 example:
Iris set at -15, distance = max throw => CR ~ 120K:1
Iris set at -10, distance = mid throw +> CR ~ 50K:1 (somewhere in this neighborhood)

It therefore follows that one cannot obtain max dynamic contrast ratio (DCR) unless one is achieving max native contrast.....the achievable dynamic CR will also decrease with iris opening.

RS57 example:
Iris set at -15, distance = max throw => CR ~ 120K:1 then DCR ~ 1.200,000:1
Iris set at -10, distance = mid throw => CR ~ 50K:1 then DCR ~ 500,000:1

When I first heard of the II, I just assumed the manually iris was for brightness. It would just make sense, then you can apply the II afterwards. I would definitely prefer to open the iris all the way up to increase brightness. This was my thinking, just going off of cine4home's numbers last year and adding a little contrast to this year models

RS49 Iris at 0 at short throw => CR 25K:1, then II at 250K:1 RS49 Iris at 0 at long throw => CR 35K:1, then II at 250K:1
RS57 Iris at 0 at short throw => CR 35K:1, then II at 350K:1 RS57 Iris at 0 at long throw => CR 40K:1, then II at 400K:1
RS67 Iris at 0 at short throw => CR 45K:1, then II at 450K:1 RS67 Iris at 0 at long throw => CR 55K:1, then II at 550K:1

RS49 Iris at -8 at short throw => CR 30K:1, then II at 300K:1 RS49 Iris at 0 at long throw => CR 40K:1, then II at 400K:1
RS57 Iris at -8 at short throw => CR 40K:1, then II at 400K:1 RS57 Iris at 0 at long throw => CR 55K:1, then II at 550K:1
RS67 Iris at -8 at short throw => CR 60K:1, then II at 600K:1 RS67 Iris at 0 at long throw => CR 75K:1, then II at 750K:1

RS49 Iris at -15 at short throw => CR 40K:1, then II at 400K:1 RS49 Iris at 0 at long throw => CR 55K:1, then II at 550K:1
RS57 Iris at -15 at short throw => CR 65K:1, then II at 650K:1 RS57 Iris at 0 at long throw => CR 85K:1, then II at 850K:1
RS67 Iris at -15 at short throw => CR 90K:1, then II at 900K:1 RS67 Iris at 0 at long throw => CR 120K:1, then II at 120K:1
post #1029 of 3990
I think taking things from a multiple of 10, to 3 or 4 would be well worth difference
post #1030 of 3990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

JVC specs the RS57 (for example) at 1.2million:1 dynamic Contrast and the native contrast is spec'd at 120,000:1. If the DI did not close more than -15 then how are they arriving at a dynamic CR os 1,200,000:1? IOW, it has to close more than -15 to achieve the specified dynamic CR.

So if the projector is 1300 lumens it needs to have black at around 0.001 lumens to achieve that contrast ratio. The trouble is I don't think meters can read that low, and I can't recall even seeing a black lumens reading on an RS56 or RS66. So it will be hard to prove. But to get that number isn't just about the DI closing down futher, it will also only achieve that number if you let it open fully too. Remember this is dynamic contrast...so it doesn't achieve the lowest to the highest at the same time. At one end of this dynamic contrast is aperture FULLY open so that it's a light cannon. That gives you your peak white. And then the aperture closed down as far as it goes give you your black point.
post #1031 of 3990
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

So if the projector is 1300 lumens it needs to have black at around 0.001 lumens to achieve that contrast ratio. The trouble is I don't think meters can read that low, and I can't recall even seeing a black lumens reading on an RS56 or RS66. So it will be hard to prove. But to get that number isn't just about the DI closing down futher, it will also only achieve that number if you let it open fully too. Remember this is dynamic contrast...so it doesn't achieve the lowest to the highest at the same time. At one end of this dynamic contrast is aperture FULLY open so that it's a light cannon. That gives you your peak white. And then the aperture closed down as far as it goes give you your black point.

Depends on the meter. Not with an i1d3 or a c6 and even less with an i1pro, but I have a Discus and I can get a fairly reliable reading of the black level of my rs45 off the screen (a Carada BW with a 1.1 effective gain), as in it's a good rough estimate before/after a calibration to check that nothing goes wrong. To measure on/off reliably with blacker levels you need to use a lightmeter and measure off the projector in most cases anyway, and even that isn't reliable unless you have a reference meter. The error margin is too high with non reference lightmeters like those most of use.
post #1032 of 3990
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

So if the projector is 1300 lumens it needs to have black at around 0.001 lumens to achieve that contrast ratio. The trouble is I don't think meters can read that low, and I can't recall even seeing a black lumens reading on an RS56 or RS66. So it will be hard to prove. But to get that number isn't just about the DI closing down futher, it will also only achieve that number if you let it open fully too. Remember this is dynamic contrast...so it doesn't achieve the lowest to the highest at the same time. At one end of this dynamic contrast is aperture FULLY open so that it's a light cannon. That gives you your peak white. And then the aperture closed down as far as it goes give you your black point.
That's a good point Jonathan - it brings us back round to what type of user will benefit most from the dynamic aperture.....the guy who normally has the iris set near the wide open end or the guy with a normal iris setting of -12 to -15?
post #1033 of 3990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

That's a good point Jonathan - it brings us back round to what type of user will benefit most from the dynamic aperture.....the guy who normally has the iris set near the wide open end or the guy with a normal iris setting of -12 to -15?

Regardless of the demos that people have seen, I am finding it hard to believe that a 10 times dynamic contrast aperture cannot have any side effects. The swing is so big. I wonder if the demos had it clamped so the aperture was at -10 or something like that...so you still get a benefit, with less risk of side effects. There is no way to know. If you set the aperture to -15 normally, and don't want it any brighter than that, then you will only get the delta of whatever aperture position is -15 and the smallest aperture the new mechanism will go. Perhaps you only get a 50% improvement over native at that setting. On the other hand if you normally run with the aperture at zero, then as you cannot clamp the aperture at both ends for the auto mode, you have no choice but to risk the full 10 times dynamic swing, warts and all. So I actually suspect the best results will be for those that normally run at around -10.

All speculation.....and then there is no way to know yet how the RS57 and RS67 operate the internal aperture. We know the internal/lamp aperture is ONLY manual. But can you close that down while leaving the front one to move full swing? Or does the front one clamp down, lock step with the internal one, as the current models do!

Too many questions...too few answers wink.gif
post #1034 of 3990
Totally agree.

There is another thing we can wonder about, which is that usually the downside of closing down the iris to get more on/off is the decrease of ANSI. Maybe the new II will allow us to find a better compromise between on/off and ansi (provided we dont go blind with the opening of the iris).

I also close down the iris fully on my rs45 and if the new DI of the rs48 simply allows me to get a slightly better native on/off with better black levels thanks to an improvement at the low end, I'll be happy, especially if it gets me significantly better fade to black, which is when I notice most the slightly higner black level compared to the higher models.
post #1035 of 3990
Wondering is what keeps this forum alive. But our wonderment makes people worry needlessly. None of this makes very much difference. If the DI is keeping you up nights worrying why you do not see the bad effects or good effects other people see, just shut it off.

Colors. Displays get calibrated to a standard. But that doesn't mean you will see it the same as other people may. The calibration industry makes it a holy grail that you insist your display matches the stand and could give a rats posterior as to how your peepers on any bodies peepers differ. The colorist, his brain sees the colors probably quite differently than you even when looking at the same display. Huh. the older you get, the more yellow your cataracts get. Blues. No don't sing them, add blue to that wonderful calibrated gray scale so you will see it correctly. Slap the calibrators face. I look at the calibrated gray scale with my new cataract eye and it looks right. In comparison, I shut that eye and open the other and its way too yellow. So I set up a second color memory so I have preserved the calibrator's hard work. then I copy to a second memory and crank in blue gain so with both eyes open in memory 2, it looks like what my good eye sees in calibrated memory one. Science? Precision. Yea sure. You are different. Your eyes are perfect color reading instruments. Who knows how you see it. The colors seen are in the eyes of the beholder an? not the actual colors on the display. So no CMS. Why worry. Because people dissect it to death and bitch about a projector's color flaws.
Edited by mark haflich - 10/18/13 at 3:27pm
post #1036 of 3990
Quote:
Well if you measure maximum contrast wouldnt you get the max contrast at a setting where your maximum brightness occurs with your maximum (darkest) black level. So now that they have a dynamic iris perhaps they have quasi fudged the numbers by essentially opening the manual iris to some level higher (more open) than the darkest - 15 setting thereby increasing the brightness. Now the dynamic iris can come in and drop their black level below what they would get normally at the brighter setting thereby increasing the disparity between brightest white and darkest black and achieving their new maximum dynamic contrast.

So adding the DI has allowed Jvc to obtain a larger disparity between brightest white and darkest black by allowing them to get darker blacks at a higher allowable brightness.

IMO that's a good thing. I imagine that the new JVC's will be able to light up bigger screens and still have outstanding blacks. Or, if you don't like DI's, use it like you have always used a JVC, with the manual iris. If nothing else, the new JVC projectors are more flexible picture setting wise than before. And that does not seem like a bad thing.
post #1037 of 3990
Since JVC has given the consumer a 'say' in the degree of dimming, they may also give the consumer a degree of II/IA compression(multiplier setting), this way they can claim a 10x D/CR at the max setting(10x), while allowing the user to decide the actual multiplier setting to suit his/her tastes....be it 2x or 10x
post #1038 of 3990
And what about the average purchaser who has no clue about any of this? Where are his/her set it and forget it defaults?
post #1039 of 3990
Quote:
And what about the average purchaser who has no clue about any of this? Where are his/her set it and forget it defaults?

What, you want projectors designed for the lowest common denominator? A video dunce version, with no settings? " Perfectly Mediocre Right Out Of The Box " ( TM pending ) ? rolleyes.gif
post #1040 of 3990
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

And what about the average purchaser who has no clue about any of this? Where are his/her set it and forget it defaults?

The auto setting my good man the auto setting........

The manual settings are for the true enthusiast.......does a true sport car enthuasiast buy an auto...... smile.gif Ok PDK....but I'd rather stick shift.

The JVC needs to be all things to all people. Honestly how many average purchases even calibrate?
post #1041 of 3990
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Wondering is what keeps this forum alive. But our wonderment makes people worry needlessly. None of this makes very much difference. If the DI is keeping you up nights worrying why you do not see the bad effects or good effects other people see, just shut it off.

Wondering is not worrying:)

My remark was in fact positive, so if the above was addressed to me there must be some kind of misunderstanding. I was only saying that the addition of the new II might help us to find a better compromise between on/off and ANSI contrast, as we might be able to open the iris a bit more than we would with just the manual iris (to get better ANSI) while still getting a decent on/off (thanks to the II).
post #1042 of 3990
I agree. My question is what will JVC choose as the default auto? It must be a default that is independent of the manual iris setting I would think. My guess is to open it up full
Edited by mark haflich - 10/18/13 at 7:46pm
post #1043 of 3990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Wondering is not worrying:)

My remark was in fact positive, so if the above was addressed to me there must be some kind of misunderstanding. I was only saying that the addition of the new II might help us to find a better compromise between on/off and ANSI contrast, as we might be able to open the iris a bit more than we would with just the manual iris (to get better ANSI) while still getting a decent on/off (thanks to the II).
Yes, I was think something similar....the new II may change the way I set the manual iris (when using the II).
post #1044 of 3990
FWIW, from GaryB's picture of the II menu setting, it also seems like there is some level of control over the new Clear Black feature (it's set on "high" in the photo of the menu). I know not everyone is enthusiastic about
this feature, but I'm curious to see it.
post #1045 of 3990
My comment about people worrying is related to how much we obsess and criticize implementations here. We say it should do this and it doesn't etc and then people say its no good and cross a projector off their list of candidates thinking its no good. we tend to be perfectionists here and many think they are smarter than company engineers and the people who price their products based on costs and needed margins. They should sell it for x, I often read. Price it like a no cost commodity and assuming people want it you can pretty much control demand. Sony could sell all the VPL-vw600ES they wanted to realistically make pricing it say below $1.5K.
post #1046 of 3990
This forum is called av science and is one the few places where one can raise these questions and discuss these things. If these threads are just sales pitches for people who don't know the difference between ansi and on/off contrast and are not interested to find out, then maybe this is not the place anymore to discuss av science, which would be sad.
post #1047 of 3990
I didn't say that either. AV Science serves many purposes for its users. Some come here to get simple questions answered, to get advice, to get recommendations, and to discuss the science, engineering, pricing, and durability of AV products. To bitch about how they were handled by somebody somewhere and to praise great service. Lots of other things. Some just social among AV friends.


Once again, the science is discussed by scientists and pretenders, and so is the engineering. This is good and this must be the place to do it. I am just concerned how the less obsessed and less versed users of this forum might take our debates and criticisms. We make minor things appear as deal breakers which they might be for a few but not for the vast majority. The sales guys here tend to put things into perspective without offending anyone. I don't have that restriction. smile.gif I obviously without any such intent have offended you. I just saying we need to step back on occasion and put our findings in proper perspective.

What would I summarize about our discussions of JVCs II. They are still tweaking it and we will have to wait to see how its implemented on production units. It looks like it will be useable even if you want to limit the maximum brightness that will hit your screen. It will be tweakable by the user. It will have some artifacts which can be reduced by tweaking and it will likely be even better in a year since this is JVC's first crack at doing something like this. For the non technically inclined, you can just turn it on in one of two modes and enjoy it without tweaking. Making your blacks darker. If you are a purist and have drunk the non DI cool aide that JVC used to pass out, you have the option of not turning it one. Its all good. And the sales guy in me says JVC has improved many things this year over last year's model and providing for an II, that the user can tweak if so inclined, or can be turned off is a good thing.

This summary leaves a lot of the technical stuff out but if you are so inclined you can read the full discussion by the nerds and turds, just kidding, and its not important that you understand everything they are saying. Some of them don't even understand it themselves. smile.gif
post #1048 of 3990
With the way JVC used to have the iris, to get the stated contrast spec, you had to mount the projector at long throw and close down the iris. When you used the projector with the iris open, you lost contrast. Now with the dynamic iris, using the projector with the iris open, allows you to still achieve the higher contrast. Since very few people use their JVC in long throw with the iris closed down, this looks like a win for most everybody. For those that do not like a dynamic iris, they have the option to turn it off. Lots of guessing here regarding the implementation, but those that went to CEDIA have all said how good the JVC's looked and this was with software that is still being tweaked. In fact the software for these projectors is tweaked and tested right up to the point that they are shipped to distributors because they are shipped to JVC USA and others without the software. The projectors are then flashed with the software right before going to distributors. So any review before the projectors are actually shipped will most likely not be the final configuration. This means for us to get clear answers on what exactly is going on will only come from an actual review of the product, once it starts shipping.
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post #1049 of 3990
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Now with the dynamic iris, using the projector with the iris open, allows you to still achieve the higher contrast.

I am glad JVC finally included a DI, we are going to see some truly amazing low APL scenes I imagine, but I still say mount that sucker as far back as you possibly can...

Not to ruin the party, but as you know the dynamic on/off measurement only measures the DI's reaction to pure black, this is not the same as how much the black level is affected in mixed scenes by the DI vs. Native, as the DI is forced to lower the reaction amount in mixed scenes due to unsightly side effects.

Some experiments in the forum would show that on a Sony IRIS, the actual effects of the DI in mixed contrast scenes are approximately 1/2 to 1/4 of what a native on/off would do regarding black levels. So if you can do 30,000:1 on/off with a DI, the equivalent black level in any "mostly low APL scene" but with a few bright whites is usually only half as good as a projector that can do 30,000:1 Natively on/off, but in the lowest APL scenes where there are no whites and only muddy grays, it may get very close to native though.
post #1050 of 3990
Plus all things being equal, the lens will perform best optically in most regards at long throw. BUT The choice of mounting points is often dictated by the amount of light one needs with a projector normally putting out about 30% or so more light at short vs long throw.
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