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NEW RANGE JVC 2014 - Page 2

post #31 of 4022
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by whitetrash66 View Post

hopefully this isn't true. I don't get WHY they would need to accept a 60 hertz UHD signal just to downscale it to eshift, when eshift does that already from a 1080p signal... Maybe i'm just wishful thinking for 4k panels. But why even bother having the eshift projectors accept a 4k signal?

Hi,

I don't know why exactly (I have an idea, but...).

If it is really 4K native Panel, why are the upgrade the Multiple Pixel Control (MPC) which is IMHO linked to e-shift :

post #32 of 4022
Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

The think is no one knows when 4k discs will be available. It could be next year or in 3yrs. By that time, there will be projectors in the same price range with 4k panels that are hdmi 2.0. Its best to wait a year when the 57 successor will be $8K with 4k panels and hdmi 2.0 for around $5-5.5k pre order price.

Yeah, I was hoping they would come out with a top-end model with 4k panels and at least a plan that it could be upgradeable(like the Sony VW1000ES) to HDMI 2.0 this year but I bet you are right in that we are another year away. I really wanted to upgrade this year so I will still wait till all the details come out.

Mike
post #33 of 4022
Unless it is a peculiarity of Italian and the way it is translated, it seems pretty clear that the new models will have 1080 panels. If not they would have said its 4K and not 'accepts 4K input' in 3 different places.

At worst, this is for marketing purposes so the salesguy can say, yes, it has 4K input and displays in 4K. What would be really interesting is if the new MPC can take the 4K input pixels and use eshift to output 4K (or something close), as opposed to downscaling then eshifting.

I agree that the more exciting information is the new generation panel with 'extremely improved dynamic range'.
post #34 of 4022
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thebes View Post


"4K" this and that, Clear motion drive...Blah, blah, blah...


2°Extremely improved Dynamic range

Blah, blah, blah....


7°6th Generation new D-ILA Chip

Those are the two items that immediately grabbed my attention. I care much more about any possible advances in contrast and D-ILA chip performance at this point than for any
4K stuff. Here's hoping they've done something a bit more substantial than recent years in terms of inching forward contrast/performance.

Also, from the translation provided on this thread, what does this mean?

"Always start with 49 to € 5,000.00 which will take in more than 48 more than the ability to accept signals 4K 60,000:1 contrast and also":

"which will take in more than 48?"

And, I presume the 60,000:1 contrast is for the 49, not the newer chip "extremely improved Dynamic range" projectors. (?)
post #35 of 4022
Thanks for posting this early info. That's the first mention of a new panel since the RS40 was announced.
post #36 of 4022
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Those are the two items that immediately grabbed my attention. I care much more about any possible advances in contrast and D-ILA chip performance at this point than for any
4K stuff. Here's hoping they've done something a bit more substantial than recent years in terms of inching forward contrast/performance.

Also, from the translation provided on this thread, what does this mean?

"Always start with 49 to € 5,000.00 which will take in more than 48 more than the ability to accept signals 4K 60,000:1 contrast and also":

"which will take in more than 48?"

And, I presume the 60,000:1 contrast is for the 49, not the newer chip "extremely improved Dynamic range" projectors. (?)

I hope all of them get the new DILA chip, but I wouldn't be surprised if the RS49 got this years chip with the new wire grid polarizer and the higher end ones get the new chip. I just hope that the panel refresh rate is faster. If they managed to double to 240 that would be nasty. I need more information now!!!
post #37 of 4022
240 would put the 3D on par with the Sony, improve 3D crosstalk and reduce flicker. Then the JVC would be taken more seriously as a 3D projector.

I held off on upgrading this year and still have my RS55, but the RS57 might have my name on it this year.

HW55 vs. RS57 shootout. cool.gif
post #38 of 4022
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

240 would put the 3D on par with the Sony, improve 3D crosstalk and reduce flicker. Then the JVC would be taken more seriously as a 3D projector.

I held off on upgrading this year and still have my RS55, but the RS57 might have my name on it this year.

HW55 vs. RS57 shootout. cool.gif

The issue here is that JVC would need to take a hit on contrast performance to do this. Making the chips thinner to get a faster native response time is the only way to make the chips faster. Doing so lessens the contrast performance.
post #39 of 4022
They've had 3 years to come up with something new. We'll find out more soon enough.
post #40 of 4022
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Those are the two items that immediately grabbed my attention. I care much more about any possible advances in contrast and D-ILA chip performance at this point than for any
4K stuff. Here's hoping they've done something a bit more substantial than recent years in terms of inching forward contrast/performance.

Also, from the translation provided on this thread, what does this mean?

"Always start with 49 to € 5,000.00 which will take in more than 48 more than the ability to accept signals 4K 60,000:1 contrast and also":

"which will take in more than 48?"

And, I presume the 60,000:1 contrast is for the 49, not the newer chip "extremely improved Dynamic range" projectors. (?)

If the RS49 has 60K:1 CR as compared to the RS48's 50K:1 then that would be of some value but probably just at the threshold of being enough of an improvement to be visible. Perhaps the "extremely improved dynamic range" is related to an increase to the bit depth actually being used internally by the projector to drive the DILA panels or less likely JVC added either some form of lamp modulation or JVC added (has hell frozen over) a dynamic iris on the higher-end models.
post #41 of 4022
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

If the RS49 has 60K:1 CR as compared to the RS48's 50K:1 then that would be of some value but probably just at the threshold of being enough of an improvement to be visible. Perhaps the "extremely improved dynamic range" is related to an increase to the bit depth actually being used internally by the projector to drive the DILA panels or less likely JVC added either some form of lamp modulation or JVC added (has hell frozen over) a dynamic iris on the higher-end models.

I personally wouldn't be excited about a contrast increase from 50 to 60K. I think these are in the "possibly visible if you have the right machine under just the right conditions" realm.

What I'm hoping is that the "extremely improved dynamic range" relates to something more significant they've been able to do with the higher end models.
Boy, Cedia suddenly feels like a long way off.
post #42 of 4022
Couldn't it be that the e-shift has been modified so that the e-shift works more like DLP wobulation? In other words the full 3840 x 2160 is displayed just 1080 fields painted at 120Hz? That would then explain the need for the dual HDMI since single HDMI does not have the bandwidth for 2160p at 60Hz. All bits are shown but the panel is not a single UHD panel. After all, the current JVC panel somehow displays an interpolated 3840 x 2160. I'd have to believe that a non-interpolated 3840 x 2160 would be easier.

Anyway, it's probably irrelevant since there are so few commercially viable UHD sources available now or projected in the next few years.
post #43 of 4022
this just seems like a terrible time to buy. it's nuts to buy a UHD product before a UHD input even exists. it's like buying a 1080p plasma that only has component video inputs.

maybe jvc realizes this, and they don't want to include UHD chips and double the price of projectors that WILL be obsolete a few months after their release. instead they are making some minor tweaks and upgrades to the current line. i actually think this is smart. ride out the transition period and wait for HDMI 2.0.

i have to say, if i was desperate to buy a new projector this year, and wanted something top quality, i'd see a lot more value in buying a 'faux-k' jvc projector at half the price of competing native UHD projectors because i'd want to upgrade both of them the minute hdmi2,0 gets finalized/announced/whatever is holding them up.

i just think you need to have a lot of money to burn to buy a native UHD display that doesn't have the full UHD input
post #44 of 4022
The HDMI 2.0 spec is finalized and will be officially released very soon. It should be out in time to release a product with it this fall/early 2014. I hope this means JVC brings something UHD to market very soon.
post #45 of 4022
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

I personally wouldn't be excited about a contrast increase from 50 to 60K. I think these are in the "possibly visible if you have the right machine under just the right conditions" realm.

What I'm hoping is that the "extremely improved dynamic range" relates to something more significant they've been able to do with the higher end models.
Boy, Cedia suddenly feels like a long way off.

i think it depends on which end they gained the extra 10k. if they managed to squeeze a little darker black out, then it's probably noticeable. if they made it a little brighter, probably not so much.

maybe they've just got a better iris system or something in place?
post #46 of 4022
For what I read 4K for masses will only really start in 2015.
post #47 of 4022
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius2 View Post

For what I read 4K for masses will only really start in 2015.

UHD is already out for the masses. The only technology that won't be available for the masses until 2015 are consumer grade DLP DMDs.
post #48 of 4022
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

UHD is already out for the masses. The only technology that won't be available for the masses until 2015 are consumer grade DLP DMDs.

I meant for stuff like MOVIES, SHOWS, etc (all on 4K). Besides better price (2160p24 or 30 also doesn't count).

Youtube clip included !
post #49 of 4022
I don't understand when everyone says if you buy a jvc this year in a few months it will be obsolete. Isn't Sony, Benq, Optoma, Epson, etc bringing out projectors? If you buy those, those will not be obsolete? Even the high end models like Runco, SIM2, etc have 1080p models probably coming out soon. Why is it so crazy to buy a jvc now? They have been trying for a couple of years to meet us half way with 4K. I really don't think its a bad thing what they doing this year. They are offering some good features. I'm hoping the auto cal works for calibrating the projector at bt. 2020 instead of bt. 709. However, that's wishful thinking, because I think hdmi 1.4 won't allow this, but it can do it internally.
Edited by blee0120 - 8/15/13 at 1:42am
post #50 of 4022
Thread Starter 
Hi,

sorry but I got confirmation by another way, no 4K panels on this new range.
Edited by Thebes - 8/15/13 at 2:55am
post #51 of 4022
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thebes View Post

Hi,

sorry but I got confirmation by another way, no 4K panels on this new range.
We almost can tell by the listed price.....
post #52 of 4022
I could be well off the mark here but this is my take on it.

Current e-shift:

1080p image is processed to create an additional 1080p image leaving us with 2 1080p images (image 1 being the original image and image 2 being a processed image)

Image 1 hits our screen as the normal 1080p image and image 2 is refracted through the e-shift device before hitting the screen

Our eyes see image 1 and 2 as just a single image but because its been refracted and image 1 and 2 are not the same, our eyes pick up both and therefore we are seeing 1920/1920x1080p/1080p = 3840 different pixels horizontally and 2160 different pixels vertically - but - because the pixels overlap, we are effectively only doubling the 1080p resolution.

New e-shift:

3840x2160 image is broken down into 2 x 1080p images but using original pixels so no need for upscale processing as its all taken from the original content

Then e-shift acts as it always has done from here but its now improved as its being able to take pixels from original 4k content rather than process new pixels. Still not true 4k as it has no facility to show all the individual pixels and for 1080p sources it will be the same as it always has been.

So what do we think - is this correct have I got my understanding all wrong?
post #53 of 4022
Current e-shift takes a 1080p signal and upscales it to 3840 x 2160 , displays that in two flashes, 1080p each, second flash is one pixel or so down and one or so to the side, creating the almost 4k image.

The new generation will take a 4k input and do the same, but minimal scaling/processing if any will be required with a 4k native signal(however I feel JVC may adopt some sharpening), when an 1080p signal or less is in putted scaling will be required.
post #54 of 4022
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

i think it depends on which end they gained the extra 10k. if they managed to squeeze a little darker black out, then it's probably noticeable. if they made it a little brighter, probably not so much.

Contrast is contrast, there's no "end" to get it out of. To make blacks darker with the current brightness you have to improve the amount of light the panels can block, to keep the same black level with more brightness, you need to do the same. Whether they made the machine brighter is a separate issue from if (how much) they improved contrast.

That said, a lot of folks would welcome increased brightness to go along with improved contrast, it will allow larger screens, or even better contrast (ability to run with lower IRIS settings), and sure probably improved 3D for the folks who care about that wink.gif.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I don't understand when everyone says if you buy a jvc this year in a few months it will be obsolete.

I think they're saying if you buy a 4K machine (doesn't matter who from) in a few months without HDMI 2.0 (all indications are these JVCs won't have HDMI 2.0), then it will be obsolete when HDMI 2.0 is released, as you will have a 4k machine but will likely be unable to view commercial 4k content on it.
Quote:
Isn't Sony, Benq, Optoma, Epson, etc bringing out projectors? If you buy those, those will not be obsolete? Even the high end models like Runco, SIM2, etc have 1080p models probably coming out soon. Why is it so crazy to buy a jvc now?

All 1080p machines have a similar "problem" this year, they're not 4k, though they don't as much have the problem of being a cart with no horse like a 4k-without-hdmi-2.0 machine is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

Current e-shift takes a 1080p signal and upscales it to 3840 x 2160 , displays that in two flashes, 1080p each, second flash is one pixel or so down and one or so to the side, creating the almost 4k image.

The new generation will take a 4k input and do the same, but minimal scaling/processing if any will be required with a 4k native signal(however I feel JVC may adopt some sharpening), when an 1080p signal or less is in putted scaling will be required.

I expect processing will be required with a 4k input signal to make it "compatible" with e-shift. I doubt you can just overlap two 1080p grids raw from a 4k source and get something that looks right. At the very least you've got to toss some info out since you're only flashing 1080p each time. Though it should be possible to have a better result than upconverted since you've got more information to work with.
post #55 of 4022
I still think jvc projectors being obsolete because it upscales to 4k is ridiculous. The majority of content isn't even 1080p. But other 1080p projectors are not labeled as being obsolete in a few months though
Edited by blee0120 - 8/15/13 at 4:58am
post #56 of 4022
Just because 1080p projectors will not be able to display the very few 4k content over the next 3 years, just don't them obsolete. Gaming console is just becoming able to be played in 1080p this winter, sports and hdtv is still 720p. Blu ray disc is still our highest quality video with many not even look as clean.
post #57 of 4022
Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I still think jvc projectors being obsolete because it upscales to 4k is ridiculous. The majority of content isn't even 1080p. But other 1080p projectors are not labeled as being obsolete in a few months though

But you don't expect to be able to play 4k content on a 1080p projector. You do on a machine that accepts 4k input and has "4k" output. That's the difference. It's going to seem silly in 6 months to a year to have a "4k" machine (4k input, 4k output) and not be able to view commercial 4k content.
post #58 of 4022
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

If the RS49 has 60K:1 CR as compared to the RS48's 50K:1 then that would be of some value but probably just at the threshold of being enough of an improvement to be visible. Perhaps the "extremely improved dynamic range" is related to an increase to the bit depth actually being used internally by the projector to drive the DILA panels or less likely JVC added either some form of lamp modulation or JVC added (has hell frozen over) a dynamic iris on the higher-end models.
You have more of a chance of being asked to join the Eagles than JVC adding a DI.
post #59 of 4022
i don't want one if it doesn't have 4k panels... you guys will have to forgive my earlier excitement. This is pretty disappointing IMO.

It's been 2 years and they don't have anything to compete with the VW1000, even in its own price range. Sony still has worse contrast, but much brighter, sharper lens, better processing (4k reality creation), great 3d, etc. oh well. Maybe 2014 Cedia
post #60 of 4022
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

You have more of a chance of being asked to join the Eagles than JVC adding a DI.
that's why I added "has hell frozen over". I hear the Eagles need a new tackling dummy, who knows, maybe the phone will ring..



.
Edited by Ron Jones - 8/15/13 at 7:55am
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