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NEW RANGE JVC 2014 - Page 17

post #481 of 3991
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Crushed is the WRONG word. A projector that did not support whatever the color space is and it won't be2020, would simply have to move any color outside the space to the last closest color within the supported space. It would be a recoding by the projector.
Still seems like it's being crushed to me but whatever the correct terminology is I don't think it would look natural unless the UHD colorspace was Rec709 or close to it. I could be wrong of course and would like to hear a color expert chime in (I'm thinking there would be significant dE errors).
post #482 of 3991
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post

So, without the new JVC's having HDCP 2.2 for future UHD blu-ray, you couldn't send the UHD signal for the JVC to display using eshift to display it and without a new 4K Lumagen to scale it you would have to send down scaled 2K signal from UHD blu-ray to JVC and just have it upscale to UHD/4k using eshift? Have I got this right taking into consideration of what we currently know or expect from the upcoming UHD blu-ray format? Excuse me if I butchered what is UHD and what is 4K.

Mike
Given what we currently know I believe that is true. Hopefully JVC adds HDCP 2.2 support, if not I look at these new models as refinements over last years models and if the DI works well it could be a very nice refinement.....

I'm sure there will be many buyers expecting it to work with their UHD BD player though.....
post #483 of 3991
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I'm not trying to be a smarty pants, but that noise really sounds like line or frequency interference getting into the JVC. Dancing noise is the classic symptom.

My source component (HTPC) and HDMI cable has not changed and I can swap between two projectors in the same viewing and the issue will only be there on the JVC.
post #484 of 3991
Isn't De a meassure of how accurately the colors are presented to the coded values? Lots of colors outside a color space are captured correctly by the camera and then are moved in post production by the colorist to within the coded space. This does not cause any increase in de. Of course I could be wrong.
post #485 of 3991
@Seegs
Different projectors and video devices have different sensitivities, not the correct test. Only way to know is to take it somewhere else in a different environment. Technically the digital signal itself is somewhat immune to dancing noise, it would usually show up as as horizontal bending lines, tearing noise, glimmering, or other artifacts.

But I think the problem would be that the processes that produce the projection could be sensitive to certain frequencies.
post #486 of 3991
I have other source components and HDMI cables I can test too. I can try my laptop, blu-ray player, cable box, ect. If you say the electrical source needs to be different I used the X3 and X30 where I used to live and saw the issue there too. I also use a Tripp Lite power conditioner if that matters.
post #487 of 3991
Coderguy. What post are you responding to?
post #488 of 3991
You've done what I've asked and saw a COMPLETELY clean and stable image? I will try and take a macro-type video and see if I can capture what I'm seeing (and have seen on other models).
post #489 of 3991
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Isn't De a meassure of how accurately the colors are presented to the coded values? Lots of colors outside a color space are captured correctly by the camera and then are moved in post production by the colorist to within the coded space. This does not cause any increase in de. Of course I could be wrong.
Time to get your buddy Tom to chime in.....rolleyes.gif

That said, I seem to recall NTSC and Rec709 differences were noticeable when one end (source or destination) got it wrong (as some early DVD players did)
post #490 of 3991
@Seegs
OK now I see the dancing noise by pulling the menu up over the white screen, I can see the dancing noise in the gray area. Do you have 20/10 vision, how can you see that in the white parts?

I cannot see it in the white parts, but I think I see what you are saying now. I cannot see it from seating distance. You should be the guy that walks the runways to ensure no specs are on the runway that might get caught in an engine.

"Sergeant we got particles on the runway"

"Private, no we don't, it's your imagination"
post #491 of 3991
Why don't you send him a PM or email? I can't take my valuable time away from posting here. Obviously, I am desperately needed here. smile.gif
post #492 of 3991
Haha, I haven't gotten my eye sight tested in a number of years. I'm 24 so I think my eyes are in good shape still. I like to watch movie trailers before the feature presentation. The green opening shot is a good place to see this noise in the solid green background. With my eyesight I can see it from my 1.5x screen width seating distance. Like I said, if I turn the RNR noise filter to 1 it takes care of it at a normal seating distance for me. I'm assuming it will also lessen real film grain though.
post #493 of 3991
Totally off-topic, but do most of you use your HTPC's on a projector these days for these forums and general Internet reading / usage, or do you still like sit at a desk. I'm having back issues, but I cannot break the habit of using the HTPC instead of the desk, it's awful. This must be the most unhealthy posture, sitting on a reclined chair with a keyboard on the lap, and the mouse on the chair's armrest.

I am thinking I need to find a more ergonomic setup.
post #494 of 3991
I try not to, but do on occasion if I have the projector on already. I love sitting at my desk:



I need to do some slight wire management. smile.gif
post #495 of 3991
RE Clear Black, it sounds somewhat like what Darby does but less sophisticated; seems like they may not play well together.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post


All these impressions were on the 4910 by the way. I will say as great as the contrast was, it was still a considerable ways off from BLACK which was all to obvious comparing to the black frame border. The presentation was in scope on a 1.78 screen, so it was easy to check out the black bars at various points in the material to see just how dark they were and again still a long ways off from true black (even on what looked to be a total fade to black at one point). Keep your expectations in check folks and don't expect miracles! Again though, it did look good.

Was light control good enough that you're sure it can be attributed to the pj?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

Over my RS20?

...Higher fill factor...

Really? I have to get within a foot of my screen to see the faint gray lines between pixels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

The thing that I found most exciting about the JVCs in particular was the eshift which I was more impressed with than I expected (this was my first time seeing eshift). I see what Zombie and so many others talk about now with this feature giving a nice solidity to the image that you don't get with the non eshift models. I was amazed just how close I could get to the screen and the pic still looked great.

Was this difference in solidity apparent at viewing distance or only close to the screen?[/quote]
Edited by noah katz - 9/29/13 at 7:13am
post #496 of 3991
Noah, these JVC rooms were black holes besides the open back which was open to a dark, very dimly lit area that I doubt had any significant impact. Even if there was some impact, these rooms overall were better than probably 99% of the projection HT rooms out there as far as light control, so it was a best case scenario which most rooms wont even be as good as. Literally all black screen wall, floor, sidewalls and ceiling.......black holes.

The image looked solid at a distance as well, but without being able to A/B like some members here have done, I cant say how much more solid it would look vs a non eshift machine at whatever distance. I would love to see one in my own room (or a true 4k!) and compare vs my 45 which probably wont happen this year. I am VERY curious about this now myself!
Edited by Toe - 9/28/13 at 12:21pm
post #497 of 3991
This process seems like it could obscure shadow detail. I guess it depends on how aggressive it is.

post #498 of 3991
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I viewed the 67 as well which was in a separate room next to the 4910, but on a larger higher gain (1.5 from what I was told) screen with different source material, so it was hard to really make a comparison to the 4910.



Hey what up Todd! Ditto Geoff's sentiments... thanks brutha! So was your reaction more of a "wow!" or a "Meh" on the 67?? Surprised to see CMD included on 3D so hopefully as you and Jason mentioned last year it could help 3D accuracy (perceived of course... bummer you mention the continual existence of ghosting though! frown.gif ) In Thebes pics I noticed what looks like the same 3D emitter port so I wonder of IR is still supported and they either will be implementing RF internally or thru a new dongle using the same DIN pinouts? I've got a "3D station" rack full of 8 IR glasses I would hate to have to toss!

The DI announcement sounds promising but also scary to me with it being JVC's first crack at this (we all know JVC's history with "1st Gen" attempts eek.gif ). Look how long it took Sony to get it somewhat right (even now most I know who run DI do it on the lowest settings because it sacrifices white balance/accuracy). If JVC can't control this setting in relation to the manual iris controls then I would be very leery using it at all, but I goes only time will tell (as it always does this time of year... let all the speculation and opinions begin!) tongue.gif

Keep on Toe Jammin' my brutha!
post #499 of 3991
kevin, they are still showing a 3D port on the back of the new models. Hopefully it's still compatible with the current IR / MV3D transmitter.

900x900px-LL-ad4855fc_Connectique-597x377.jpeg

also the software for the DI wasn't finalized, so we'll have to wait for Cine4home's first impressions, hopefully soon.
post #500 of 3991
Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post

Hey what up Todd! Ditto Geoff's sentiments... thanks brutha! So was your reaction more of a "wow!" or a "Meh" on the 67?? Surprised to see CMD included on 3D so hopefully as you and Jason mentioned last year it could help 3D accuracy (perceived of course... bummer you mention the continual existence of ghosting though! frown.gif ) In Thebes pics I noticed what looks like the same 3D emitter port so I wonder of IR is still supported and they either will be implementing RF internally or thru a new dongle using the same DIN pinouts? I've got a "3D station" rack full of 8 IR glasses I would hate to have to toss!

The DI announcement sounds promising but also scary to me with it being JVC's first crack at this (we all know JVC's history with "1st Gen" attempts eek.gif ). Look how long it took Sony to get it somewhat right (even now most I know who run DI do it on the lowest settings because it sacrifices white balance/accuracy). If JVC can't control this setting in relation to the manual iris controls then I would be very leery using it at all, but I goes only time will tell (as it always does this time of year... let all the speculation and opinions begin!) tongue.gif

Keep on Toe Jammin' my brutha!

Any DI or II will affect the gray scale changing part of it and obviously affecting color accuracy at portions of the gray scale. Pretty much not noticeable when watching. I am not use calling it as affect white balance is correct but I don't know.

HTF are you my man?
post #501 of 3991
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

The noise I see is not posterization. If I turn RNR noise filter on up to 1 it takes care of the noise I see, but at it's default 0 it's there. Place a static image on your screen (like this website), turn sharpness to 0, noise filters to 0, all other processing to off or zero. Walk up to your screen and take a close look at a white background or something similar and you will see dancing noise. It's been there on the X3, X30, and the X55R. It's sometimes noticeable during real world content but for the most part a non-issue but the image does appear less "clean" with it there compared to something like a good DLP which requires no enhancement or noise filter to get rid of the issue (because it isn't there). I wouldn't mind RNC to be on but it can lessen actual film grain present in the source with its enabled.

I know exactly what you are talking about.

My previous projector was the RS20 and I was very used to being close to the screen for focusing. As soon as I replaced it with the RS55 I immediately noticed the noise you are talking about, much more visible up close to the screen and a solid color screen especially (e.g. the JVC blue screen). I remember it being solid and noise free (mostly I guess) with the RS20.

If this had been an issue from my viewing distance I would have been very disappointed. Luckily it is almost never noticeable to me and seems somehow to solidify more when there's an actual movie image on screen. In fact, for whatever reason, even though there's more noise than the RS20 on the screen close up, with E-shift engaged one of the more notable characteristics on the RS55 is the added solidity of the image. Go figure...
post #502 of 3991
Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post

Hey what up Todd! Ditto Geoff's sentiments... thanks brutha! So was your reaction more of a "wow!" or a "Meh" on the 67?? Surprised to see CMD included on 3D so hopefully as you and Jason mentioned last year it could help 3D accuracy (perceived of course... bummer you mention the continual existence of ghosting though! frown.gif ) In Thebes pics I noticed what looks like the same 3D emitter port so I wonder of IR is still supported and they either will be implementing RF internally or thru a new dongle using the same DIN pinouts? I've got a "3D station" rack full of 8 IR glasses I would hate to have to toss!

The DI announcement sounds promising but also scary to me with it being JVC's first crack at this (we all know JVC's history with "1st Gen" attempts eek.gif ). Look how long it took Sony to get it somewhat right (even now most I know who run DI do it on the lowest settings because it sacrifices white balance/accuracy). If JVC can't control this setting in relation to the manual iris controls then I would be very leery using it at all, but I goes only time will tell (as it always does this time of year... let all the speculation and opinions begin!) tongue.gif

Keep on Toe Jammin' my brutha!

What is up my friend?!? Good to see you on here! Now we just need to hear from Sam and the band is back for the 2013 tour! biggrin.gif

I thought both projectors looked great, but you start seeing 1,500,000:1 dynamic contrast figures and I guess I just expected more TBH, so maybe I just had my expectations to high. Just my impression though and I would love to hear from others who saw the demo to get their thoughts. I personally cant see splurging for the 67 in light of how relatively close it is in price to the 600 Sony (MSRP at least.......I am sure street will be quite a difference between the two) and I think the 57 would be the sweet spot. Again though, lots of variables and limited material on hand so all impressions from the show should be taken with a large grain of salt as usual. I would love to go in armed with a stack of discs and have control of the projector to know exactly what is going on which is just not practical at the show unfortunately.

I had the exact same feelings going into the demo as you as far as the II, but I was pleasantly surprised by what I saw and I think you would be to assuming my limited demo time is a reliable indicator which it may or may not be once we got these home and really started watching hours of various material. Who knows........first impressions were impressive though to my eyes.

I use CMD for everything on my 7000 in 3d (I turn it off for 2d) as I personally love it, but its lowest setting does not USUALLY give off the soap opera/behind the scenes look like the JVC does to my eyes. It will be interesting to hear how the new CMD is on the JVC and if they have refined the lowest setting enough to where it feels more natural than what it currently does (IMO). Either way, I always use the JVC CMD setting 3 for anything animated and like the results, so having this option now in 3d for the new JVCs will be a useful and welcomed feature for quite a few I would think. Great they finally got this enabled for 3d in the new models.

Also, as usual, these are pre-production models so changes could be made between now and release. I wish Zombie lived close as I would love to see a real and fair comparison when he gets his hands on one! cool.gif
Edited by Toe - 9/28/13 at 1:05pm
post #503 of 3991
I'll be writing up my Cedia report tomorrow, just FYI. Time to catch a plane back to Sacramento !
post #504 of 3991
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thebes View Post

Hi

Sorry, but I don't understand what you're talking about ?


Apoligies Thebes, about 8 months ago I was speaking to a person who had seen a quad stack/blend of JVC's X90's on a large 150" or so screen at JVC Kenwood Labs.

Apparently it had a unique cradle for the 4 projectors, each servicing a quarter of the screen. Auto cal and blend handled by a box the size of a bluray player, 4K capable.

Thought it may have made an appearence. More for commercial applications I guess or perhaps a R & D platform.
post #505 of 3991
It's official. The VW500/600es is the projector of the year! Reviews coming soon. biggrin.gif JVC gets the award for having Donkey Brains trying to sell fake 4k as the real thing. wink.gif
post #506 of 3991
No one has even inferred that. It looks like JVC has come up with a variety of improvements this year and made the biggest forum splash with their II. Pricing for the entry e-shift III model is quite affordable for many here. complaints My only criticism is the lack of HDCP 2.2 and that will I expect be cured by JVC if they expect to avoid a lot of complaints from consumers in UHD Bluray comes to pass next year.
post #507 of 3991
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

If the marketing folks said to engineering, this year your babies need to take UHD sources in, then why would engineering then handicap the ability to do so by omitting HDCP 2.2 considering many sources won't display unless the projector has it? The jury is leaning heavily my way. You need a better argument. smile.gif

Simple. The engineers design them and make the compromises they have to make to meet a release date and a cost. The marketing guys sell them by any means necessary.
post #508 of 3991
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Given what we currently know I believe that is true. Hopefully JVC adds HDCP 2.2 support, if not I look at these new models as refinements over last years models and if the DI works well it could be a very nice refinement.....

I'm sure there will be many buyers expecting it to work with their UHD BD player though.....

From what I've heard on the show floor from various folks within the industry that UHD Blu-ray player is still farther out than most think. Also sounds like their is more to HDMI 2.0 than meets the eye with more than one variant (other wise known as limitations) out there. As always the consumer electronics industry is doing its best to create hate and discontent with vague specs and multiple variations that will further drive the industry and consumers into chaos.
post #509 of 3991
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Isn't De a meassure of how accurately the colors are presented to the coded values? Lots of colors outside a color space are captured correctly by the camera and then are moved in post production by the colorist to within the coded space. This does not cause any increase in de. Of course I could be wrong.
I'll try to fully articulated my thought process (LOL on that post BTW)...

Suppose UHD Bluray uses a colorspace other than rec709. It can be 2020 - or any else other than 709.

Now, consider the case where JVC incorporates HDCP2.2 but not 2020. HDCP2.2 means the UHD Bluray player is allowed to talk to the JVC. If the Bluray player does not query the JVC for colorspace info and if it ends up sending 2020 colors to the JVC it would then be displayed in the rec709 space. So, what does this mean?

Consider this....
During calibration of an HD chain both CP and Calman use the rec 709 coordinates for colors and any errors from the proper coordinates are represented as dE errors. It then follows that should UHD Bluray use 2020 (or whatever) then calibrating in this colorspace both CP and Calman would use the 2020 colorspace coordinates for colors.

Now then, if CP/Calman were setup to calibrate a 2020 colorspace but instead measured 709 colors would this not result in some significant dE errors (to a large extend I think it depends on how different the colorspaces are).
post #510 of 3991
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

From what I've heard on the show floor from various folks within the industry that UHD Blu-ray player is still farther out than most think. Also sounds like their is more to HDMI 2.0 than meets the eye with more than one variant (other wise known as limitations) out there. As always the consumer electronics industry is doing its best to create hate and discontent with vague specs and multiple variations that will further drive the industry and consumers into chaos.
Thanks Kris....

Standby to standby then....
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