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Too many sub choices, please help! - Page 2

post #31 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by 316 View Post

Hi, thanks, the room is sealed with only a door. I don't know yet how much length will be lost until I get the speakers issue settled for the false wall. I prefer all the subs to be behind or under the screen.

Behind the screen? Here is a 18” option that might be of interest? Look at the numbers with this puppy. smile.gif
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show) Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)


Yes, the neighbors will love that suggestion ! wink.gif
post #32 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Yes, the neighbors will love that suggestion ! wink.gif

Well.. he did say he wanted a good 18" driver

EDIT> Truth is, it can be done many different ways whether ID, DIY, drivers exedra.
Edited by steve nn - 8/18/13 at 12:07pm
post #33 of 104
You guys are underestimating the JBL drivers and giving waaay to much credit to the XS30. First of all, being a sealed unit, the XS30 isn't going to have that much more deep bass than the JBL 4645. Second of all, whatever deep bass it does go for will be drenched in distortion. Third, like I keep saying, there is more to performance than sheer output. JBL makes some really good drivers and the 2242 is expensive and sought after for a reason. With a 24 BL motor and 167 gram Mms, the JBL is going to be tight, a lot tighter than the PSA drivers will be. It will likely have superior transient response, better cone control, and tighter sound quality. It also has a nicely linear response all the way up to 300 Hz, which is a definite advantage for a behind the screen subwoofer. Even at tremendous output levels, the 4645 keeps the distortion lower than 10% at 50 Hz and above, which is definitely not something you will get from the PSA sub. This also means the OP could cross it over higher and relieve his mains of playing back deeper bass, thus reducing their distortion as well. The only problem is it just doesn't do deep bass.

Big deep bass will be hard to achieve on a $2k budget, especially a sub that can keep up with 3722 mains. I would look at building some gjallerhorns or some othorns or a Tuba HT sub. Look around the DIY section, ask some questions. Very few commercial subs would be able to keep up with those JBL mains with respect to deep bass. Some JTR Captivator 2400s might or some Funk 18.3s.
post #34 of 104
^^^ While I always find myself agreeing with you on certain things regarding SW’s, I seem to never agree with you regarding PSA. I never saw this thread as a PSA V JBL kind of thing. It’s imo that PSA along with other ID co’s can deliver the goods for the OP whether that be in multiple or whatever. We’re talking HT here and I would disagree the JBL is the choice option to go with. I need to go now, so sorry for posting and running..tongue.gif
post #35 of 104
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

Behind the screen? Here is a 18” option that might be of interest? Look at the numbers with this puppy. smile.gif
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show) Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)



Hey Steve, Spoiler!!eek.gif That's a huge understatement! I'm gonna be here for weeks looking at all that!! Now to find something with reasonable size, no way a triple X is fitting behind my screen lol. DIY's are nice but paying cash is easier, lol. tongue.gif
post #36 of 104
Thread Starter 
I live on a 1/2 acre Ranchette....what neighbors? lol
post #37 of 104
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

You guys are underestimating the JBL drivers and giving waaay to much credit to the XS30. First of all, being a sealed unit, the XS30 isn't going to have that much more deep bass than the JBL 4645. Second of all, whatever deep bass it does go for will be drenched in distortion. Third, like I keep saying, there is more to performance than sheer output. JBL makes some really good drivers and the 2242 is expensive and sought after for a reason. With a 24 BL motor and 167 gram Mms, the JBL is going to be tight, a lot tighter than the PSA drivers will be. It will likely have superior transient response, better cone control, and tighter sound quality. It also has a nicely linear response all the way up to 300 Hz, which is a definite advantage for a behind the screen subwoofer. Even at tremendous output levels, the 4645 keeps the distortion lower than 10% at 50 Hz and above, which is definitely not something you will get from the PSA sub. This also means the OP could cross it over higher and relieve his mains of playing back deeper bass, thus reducing their distortion as well. The only problem is it just doesn't do deep bass.

Big deep bass will be hard to achieve on a $2k budget, especially a sub that can keep up with 3722 mains. I would look at building some gjallerhorns or some othorns or a Tuba HT sub. Look around the DIY section, ask some questions. Very few commercial subs would be able to keep up with those JBL mains with respect to deep bass. Some JTR Captivator 2400s might or some Funk 18.3s.

Before I read your post I was thinking the same thing...how to mate something with the 4645 after looking at the chart Steve turned me on to..something to handle everything say below ???HZ I feel the JBL's will be unmatched in their sweet spot....looks like my budget just has to get bigger...I'll just have to work a little more overtime wink.gif

Seems I have two options, first being that everything must fit behind the screen (150" or 160" wide 2.35 Seymoure curved, still deciding) ...or built into the risers. I can handle the DIY I have all the tools but I don't have a lathe so I might have to look into a kit.
Edited by 316 - 8/18/13 at 1:44pm
post #38 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

I will say at HT meets when blind meets have been done, one could not tell the difference from the other when the units being listened to were both quality units and implemented correctly. That being that, I find a good quality sealed every bit as enjoyable as a good quality vented design.

Now, everybody, pay attention to the subwoofers in the background.

Okay, which subwoofer was the sealed subwoofer and which one was the vented subwoofer?

...rolleyes.gif

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/18/13 at 2:16pm
post #39 of 104
Thread Starter 
Drop to a pair of 4641's save $800 on speakers... Save $200 by going Crown xlr1500 and pick up the bottom with a diy and different amp or used captivator, etc? Best of both worlds Or would I loose by droping to 4641?
post #40 of 104
In my case, I'm a consumer of other people's goods and services, including subwoofers, as opposed to a subwoofer, home DIY'er. I did wash the car twice, along with polishing and glazing the hood today.

If you're going checkout subwoofer, DIY, a suggestion, see the fine folks in the DIY forum as they're up to the moment with subwoofer DIY knowledge.
post #41 of 104
Although I don't agree with shady's constant putting down of PSA subs, especially considering he's never heard any of them rolleyes.gif
I totally agree on one thing, if you are at all able to build something on your own take a look at building a Gjallardhorn sub. Nothing under $2000 will even come close to it in performance.
You can hide it behind an AT screen and it'll pressurize your 4000cubic/ft room like nothing else.

The only downside is it not an easy build and after talking to a few people it requires a bit of EQ work to get it working good.
post #42 of 104
Hey guys, I might seem critical of the PSA subs, but I am not trying to smear them. They do put out a lot of output for their price. However you guys want to think they are perfect. They are inexpensive for a reason, and its not because the design is absolute genius. JBL makes some great drivers, some of the best in the business. A single 2242 is going to cost more than two Power X drivers, because it is engineered for more than sheer output. Believe it or not, the guys at JBL pay attention to more metrics than just CEA burst test averaging. You can't really compare them.
post #43 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Hey guys, I might seem critical of the PSA subs, but I am not trying to smear them. They do put out a lot of output for their price. However you guys want to think they are perfect. They are inexpensive for a reason, and its not because the design is absolute genius. JBL makes some great drivers, some of the best in the business. A single 2242 is going to cost more than two Power X drivers, because it is engineered for more than sheer output. Believe it or not, the guys at JBL pay attention to more metrics than just CEA burst test averaging. You can't really compare them.

No one has ever said they are perfect and they do have compromises, but IMO they offer some of the best performance in their price bracket.
For the $2100 my dual XS30's cost me there is no other dual subs that I'd rather have.

But lets be honest, almost every sub on the market is a compromise one way or another, there really is no perfect sub.
post #44 of 104
I didnt realize your JBL speakers were that capable. if they handle bass extremely well into the 50hz range then you need to be looking at something thats more of a bottom feeder. However that will not happen for 2k unless you go diy and even then thats a stretch. If you would rather have turn key then you will need to up the budget and check out JTR speakers...some cap 2400 or orbit shifter lfu will get the job done.
post #45 of 104
Quote:
But lets be honest, almost every sub on the market is a compromise one way or another, there really is no perfect sub.

There you go, imo you hit nail on the head jbrown. Same would go for DIY for that matter, well except for the one's I build. rolleyes.gif
post #46 of 104
The JBL 2242 driver only has 9mm xmax, why is this such a great driver?

In the 4645c JBL setup with the ported it has 25%THD@20hz. I don't see how this is so much better then something from PSA.

I'd take a TC LMS-Ultra 5400 over the 2242 driver any day of the week.
post #47 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by 316 View Post

Before I read your post I was thinking the same thing...how to mate something with the 4645 after looking at the chart Steve turned me on to..something to handle everything say below ???HZ I feel the JBL's will be unmatched in their sweet spot....looks like my budget just has to get bigger...I'll just have to work a little more overtime wink.gif

Seems I have two options, first being that everything must fit behind the screen (150" or 160" wide 2.35 Seymoure curved, still deciding) ...or built into the risers. I can handle the DIY I have all the tools but I don't have a lathe so I might have to look into a kit.

For a DIY project that might fit behind a screen which has a huge amount of low frequency output, check out Lilmike's Lilwreckers. From the FR, it doesn't look like that sub even starts rolling off until 16 or 17 Hz. A pair of those shouldn't cost you more than $2k.
post #48 of 104
Thread Starter 
I like these:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1314884/8x-18-lms-ultra-5400s-in-4-sealed-enclosures







The size is not too big and they are pretty simple looking to build...but to power them that's a different story.
post #49 of 104
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

For a DIY project that might fit behind a screen which has a huge amount of low frequency output, check out Lilmike's Lilwreckers. From the FR, it doesn't look like that sub even starts rolling off until 16 or 17 Hz. A pair of those shouldn't cost you more than $2k.

Thanks, Ill check into those!

Good size, and look easier to drive!
post #50 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

The JBL 2242 driver only has 9mm xmax, why is this such a great driver?

In the 4645c JBL setup with the ported it has 25%THD@20hz. I don't see how this is so much better then something from PSA.

I'd take a TC LMS-Ultra 5400 over the 2242 driver any day of the week.

It isn't made to plunge the depths. Don't judge drivers on their xmax alone. It's a driver meant for professional cinema speakers, so it's made for clean, huge output and high linearity, high sensitivity, and low compression. This driver is made to help play reference level bass in a large auditorium for 12 hours a day. In that realm there are few that can challenge it. At 97 dB sensitive, you don't need a huge power source to make it loud. It could absolutely blaze with just a couple hundred watts of power. What's more, it keeps impedance above 5 ohms the whole time too, so lots of amps can comfortably drive these things to deafening levels for extended periods. You can forget about thermal compression as well, it just isn't happening until above 120 dB. Also, thanks to its strong magnetic power and very light moving assembly, it will be sharp as a tack too. The LMS Ultra is, of course, a great driver, but it's made for a very different application. it's more expensive as well, and would be hell on any amplifier if it was asked to do what the JBL is doing. Josh Ricci or Bill F could explain the differences better than I could.
post #51 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by 316 View Post

I like these:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1314884/8x-18-lms-ultra-5400s-in-4-sealed-enclosures







The size is not too big and they are pretty simple looking to build...but to power them that's a different story.

Lol, yeah you better put in some overtime, That is nearly $8k in drivers alone.
post #52 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by 316 View Post

I like these:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1314884/8x-18-lms-ultra-5400s-in-4-sealed-enclosures







The size is not too big and they are pretty simple looking to build...but to power them that's a different story.

You could build one or two of those and use UXL-18 drivers instead. They are almost half the price of the Ultra 5400 drivers and offer very similar performance.
http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=75
post #53 of 104
^^^+1

One of the posters spoke of the 18” mae-X which I have a couple of and are a very nice driver. It’s not to be had now though. The 5400 is of course one if not arguably the top dog drivers but takes a lot of juice to run. Mo$t don’t consider the driver as a option but those that do are always quite satisfied with it’s performance.


EDIT> The mae-x driver alone weighs 50lbs and just a single sub must come in at around 150+lbs not counting the outboard amp and dsp.

mae-x Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

Edited by steve nn - 8/19/13 at 7:14am
post #54 of 104
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Lol, yeah you better put in some overtime, That is nearly $8k in drivers alone.

Yeah thats insane overtime...not gonna happen but I like the idea of different drivers
post #55 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by 316 View Post

Yeah thats insane overtime...not gonna happen but I like the idea of different drivers

My prescription, buy four XS30's, download and install a copy of REW and stop reading this forum. eek.gif...tongue.gif
post #56 of 104
A couple 4645s will bite your head off man.
post #57 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tack View Post

A couple 4645s will bite your head off man.

The OP wants the setup for HT use, below 60hz a single UXL-18 has more output and below 20hz the 4645 is over and done with.

The 4645 is pretty bad*ss but probably not the best solution for HT use with the amount of other options available.
post #58 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

The OP wants the setup for HT use, below 60hz a single UXL-18 has more output and below 20hz the 4645 is over and done with.

The 4645 is pretty bad*ss but probably not the best solution for HT use with the amount of other options available.

I didn't know we were DIYing now, sry.
post #59 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tack View Post

I didn't know we were DIYing now, sry.

You will notice jbrown in the classifieds, DIY and of course hanging out in front of a number of different ID company's. He sports many different SW licenses and has traveled the world over in his SW quest. If I’m ever asked to write his eulogy it will be a sad day indeed. frown.gif ]
Edited by steve nn - 8/19/13 at 10:43am
post #60 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tack View Post

I didn't know we were DIYing now, sry.

Hey no need to be sorry. The JBL is a bad@ss sub and is a hell of a PA style sub, but for the money I think there's better HT options.
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