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Colorimeters and Spectrographs, Questions - Page 2

post #31 of 56
reference spectro > affordable spectro > high end colorimeter > affordable colorimeter

for example:

JETI 1211 > i1Pro2 > Klein K-10 > D3

are there cases where the colorimeter outperforms the spectro? probably, but then there are cases where even the 'cheap' spectro outperforms the high end colorimeter


generally speaking, spectros are more consistently accurate than colorimeters
post #32 of 56
here's a new article focused on FOV alone (based on the meter tables article):

http://www.tlvexp.ca/2013/09/field-view-dreams-matter-hosed/
post #33 of 56
I would like to provide some more data to this discussion. I compared the response of a brand new out-of-the-box i1Pro 2 with a brand new out-of-the-box stock D3 OEM. I used 5 different display types.
CRT
LED
LCD
Plasma
Projector (UHP)

Then I compared WRGB measurements of the i1Pro 2 and the uncorrected D3 with my JETI 1201. Here's what I got.



The i1Pro 2 does better on the plasma and slightly better with the CRT, but with the LCD, LED, and projector the errors are essentially the same. Overall, the error rates between the i1Pro 2 and stock D3 are almost exactly the same. Given that the sensitivity of the D3 is vastly superior to the i1Pro 2, I am a little puzzled by this repeated insistence that modern colorimeters simply cannot be trusted and you are generally better off with a budget spectro. With a properly calibrated D3, even the color accuracy would have been better than the i1Pro 2.

I know of only two other published examples looking at this. One is Michael's, which has been discussed here. However, this is not really an evaluation of the D3's accuracy. It is an evaluation of one of the correction tables on his C6, which is clearly defective. The other comparison I know of was published here. As with my test, it also failed to show any real advantage when using budget spectros.

I have an open mind about this, but I have personally measured hundreds of D3s on multiple displays prior to calibration. The errors I see are very small. I have also tested the i1Pro repeatedly throughout the years. It, too, shows small errors. However, unlike the D3, its relatively poor signal-to-noise ratio affects it performance with low light sources.
post #34 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

here's a new article focused on FOV alone (based on the meter tables article):

http://www.tlvexp.ca/2013/09/field-view-dreams-matter-hosed/
I completely agree with this. Unless you are measuring a display with extremely poor uniformity or have moved the sensor so far back that its read area exceeds the display area, FOV shouldn't make much difference.
post #35 of 56
Tom .... nice right up.

Is there a way to calculate whether or not these differences from your Jeti are visible?
post #36 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Tom .... nice right up.

Is there a way to calculate whether or not these differences from your Jeti are visible?
Sure. In CIE94 units.


Edited by TomHuffman - 9/28/13 at 9:42am
post #37 of 56
thanks for sharing this data Tom. My i1 pro just arrived today, and a selfish part of me was hoping that these results would show that the i1 display pro wasn't as good when not profiled to a particular display. Though I'm sure it'll be handy considering I have an old DTP 94.

Quick question: in that last table you posted, what do the different rows represent?
post #38 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by spacediver View Post

Quick question: in that last table you posted, what do the different rows represent?
WRGB in each of the display types (4 colors x 5 display types).
post #39 of 56
got it, thanks
post #40 of 56
Are these results for i1displaypro with spectral corrections for each display type?
post #41 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei_VVB View Post

Are these results for i1displaypro with spectral corrections for each display type?
No, the measurements Tom has taken with the D3 were done with no corrections at all.
post #42 of 56
Since disp 3 offers this opportunity in the actual driver, to load a correction for each type of display, it will be interesting to see if the differences are even smaller or if these corrections are not suitable for use.
post #43 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

The i1Pro 2 does better on the plasma and slightly better with the CRT, but with the LCD, LED, and projector the errors are essentially the same. Overall, the error rates between the i1Pro 2 and stock D3 are almost exactly the same. Given that the sensitivity of the D3 is vastly superior to the i1Pro 2, I am a little puzzled by this repeated insistence that modern colorimeters simply cannot be trusted and you are generally better off with a budget spectro. With a properly calibrated D3, even the color accuracy would have been better than the i1Pro 2.

perhaps there is plenty of variation between different LCD/LED samples, which could explain the difference between your results and Michael's... just a guess
post #44 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

perhaps there is plenty of variation between different LCD/LED samples, which could explain the difference between your results and Michael's... just a guess
Again, Michael tested a specific C6 profile, not the D3 meter itself. Apples and oranges. Both his results and my results can be valid at the same time.
post #45 of 56
Thanks Tom, how does the K10-A compare with your JETI when calibrating a Plasma. ?
Would profiling a K10-A with a I1Pro 2 be helpful when calibrating a Plasma. ?

Thanks,
ss
post #46 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Thanks Tom, how does the K10-A compare with your JETI when calibrating a Plasma. ?
Would profiling a K10-A with a I1Pro 2 be helpful when calibrating a Plasma. ?
The K-10 is no better in the color accuracy dept. It's strength is speed and low light sensitivity, which is truly awesome.

Yes, it probably would.
post #47 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Thanks Tom, how does the K10-A compare with your JETI when calibrating a Plasma. ?
Would profiling a K10-A with a I1Pro 2 be helpful when calibrating a Plasma. ?

Thanks,
ss

Klein is using a Panasonic Model TC-P42GT25 at their labs to create the Plasma Table using a Konica Minolta CS-2000 Spectroradiometer as a reference.
post #48 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Tom .... nice right up.

Is there a way to calculate whether or not these differences from your Jeti are visible?
Sure. In CIE94 units.


Tom, since you are using JETI 1201 to create the correction tables, can you provide some data of how many time it takes with 1201 to read each one of the WRGB patches, by measuring a display with peak white of 100 cdm/2 ?

with JETI 1211, measuring a Plasma display with 102cd/m2 peak white it takes (using LightSpace):

For White: 102 cd/m2 - ~1249 ms per read,

For Red: 25 cd/m2 - ~1232 ms per read,

For Green: 71 cd/m2 - ~1249 ms per read,

For Blue: 10 cd/m2 - ~ 1747 ms per read.
post #49 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

Again, Michael tested a specific C6 profile, not the D3 meter itself. Apples and oranges. Both his results and my results can be valid at the same time.

aren't some of the C6's tables directly from X-Rite (same as the D3 OEM/retail version)? like the LCD Direct View (White LED) and LCD Direct View (CCFL)?
post #50 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

aren't some of the C6's tables directly from X-Rite (same as the D3 OEM/retail version)? like the LCD Direct View (White LED) and LCD Direct View (CCFL)?

Yes they are, and I believe at the time of the test, only the stock xrite white LED table was in the meter. Since then we've added an additional white LED table and a RGBY white LED table.
post #51 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Yes they are, and I believe at the time of the test, only the stock xrite white LED table was in the meter. Since then we've added an additional white LED table and a RGBY white LED table.

is the 'additional white LED table' the wide gamut one?
post #52 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

is the 'additional white LED table' the wide gamut one?

Yes and it's more of a standard gamut than truly wide, just much wider than the standard PC under-saturated white LED which the OEM table was developed for.
post #53 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Tom, since you are using JETI 1201 to create the correction tables, can you provide some data of how many time it takes with 1201 to read each one of the WRGB patches, by measuring a display with peak white of 100 cdm/2 ?

with JETI 1211, measuring a Plasma display with 102cd/m2 peak white it takes (using LightSpace):

For White: 102 cd/m2 - ~1249 ms per read,

For Red: 25 cd/m2 - ~1232 ms per read,

For Green: 71 cd/m2 - ~1249 ms per read,

For Blue: 10 cd/m2 - ~ 1747 ms per read.
See below. This is integration time, so read time is roughly double this.

post #54 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Tom, since you are using JETI 1201 to create the correction tables, can you provide some data of how many time it takes with 1201 to read each one of the WRGB patches, by measuring a display with peak white of 100 cdm/2 ?

with JETI 1211, measuring a Plasma display with 102cd/m2 peak white it takes (using LightSpace):

For White: 102 cd/m2 - ~1249 ms per read,

For Red: 25 cd/m2 - ~1232 ms per read,

For Green: 71 cd/m2 - ~1249 ms per read,

For Blue: 10 cd/m2 - ~ 1747 ms per read.
See below. This is integration time, so read time is roughly double this.


Thank you Tom, for running this test.
post #55 of 56
I own an X-Rite i1 Display Pro colorimeter. It is good enough for your average home non-pro calibration? Is it better or worse than Spyder3? I own Samsung LN40B550K HDTV, which is just your average S-PVA panel. I hope that my colorimeter provided me with enough accurate data.
post #56 of 56
The i1 display pro is better than the spyder 3 :
- better repeatability
- more acurate
- more stable
- faster
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