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Bass for the 98%. - Page 3

post #61 of 124
LTD02,
the only time my sealed setups were better than the ported or horn setups were when I had a boost down low, otherwise the Horn or ported had more output down there naturally. You need to have enough displacement and boost to extend to single digits or at least to be flat to where the others go to experience the differences and then you need a source to have content down there to begin with.
post #62 of 124
actually, that is a valid point. so for the next blind test, they will need something like 8 units of each subwoofer to ensure the sealed aren't just running out of gas.
post #63 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by splotten View Post

I really dont think so. The woofer I linked to is fairly standard, but of course not a high performance unit. If we redo the math with the Dayton Audio RSS460HO-4 18" woofer for OPs 5500cft room, we still get 18 units. That is eighteen 18" subwoofers. IMO that's not good advice. Its just plain silly.

Are you calculating based on PE spec or Klippel? PE under specs the xmax on that driver. At 20mm xmax it would be 12 HO 18's. Or you could use 10 si 18's or 7 LMS U's.

It's a big room. If you want flat FBW in a big room you need lots of displacement. It's not bad advice if that is what it takes.

Of course you could build a few LilWreckers to get reference level for a fraction of the cost, but it wouldn't be FBW.
post #64 of 124
not sure what "formula" you guys are using to get 18 subwoofers as a requirement. that's goofy.

the Dayton is 1090 cm^2 sd, has 2.0 cm one way excursion (measured), * 2 = 4360 cm^3 displacement or ~4.4 liters displacement per unit.

the Adire Tumult has 749 cm^2 sd, has 3.4 cm one way excursion (spec) * 2 = 4794 cm^3 displacement or ~4.8 liters displacement per unit.
post #65 of 124
No. I used Daytons own numbers: Linear xmax 12.75mm. I have a hard time believing they would under-spec their own drivers by that much?

Also i did not use a "formula". Dont try and make me look like a fool.
post #66 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by splotten View Post

No. I used Daytons own numbers: Linear xmax 12.75mm. I have a hard time believing they would under-spec their own drivers by that much?

The PE xmax spec is based on geometry, not distortion. The practical, usable excursion is 18-20mm. I believe all the reference series drivers are spec-ed low like this. Why? It probably comes down to the added cost of testing.

LTD02 - sd on the HO 18 is 1164cm2 so the displacement comes out to 4.66 liters.
Edited by nograveconcern - 8/27/13 at 3:19pm
post #67 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by splotten View Post

@ nube and others. This is getting ridiculous.


.... 0.01 liters of driver displacement per cubic foot of space ....


My bedroom is a good size but not big at all. It is approx. 4 x 4 x 2.6 meters = 41.6m3 = 1468cft

0.01 x 1468 => 14.68 liters of displacement in a smallish room.

A standard 12" has a little more than one liter linear displacement. Just for an example I took the first one I could find:

http://www.sbacoustics.com/index.php/products/woofers/12-sb34swnrx-s75-6/#zoomImage499

sd=508 cm2, Linear travel 22mm P-P

2.2cm x 508cm2 = 1.12 liter

14.68 / 1.12 = approx. 13!

So if I understand you correctly, you are proposing thirteen 12" standard sealed subwoofers and a boat load of power for this small room, or, of course, other woofers with equivalent displacement.

You really cant be serious...

Of course I'm serious. If you decide to use an 11mm Xmax 12" driver for HT subwoofer duty in 1500 cubes, you will need 12 of them at least to see full BW reference level playback. Of course, lots of folks prefer delusion to reality but by all means, please feel free to prove me wrong. smile.gif

KGVeteran has used 4 X 15" Tumults for years in his 2000ish cubes. Ed Mullen has been there for demo sessions and he pinged me with the details. Ask KG and similarly experienced folk what they think of using your 11mm 12" driver and they'll give the same reply. The Tummies give him 22 liters of displacement. That means he'd need, um... let's see... yup, 20 of them.

Summary: don't use a screwdriver to hammer a nail. wink.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

from archaea's blind subwoofer shootout:



at least in his test, which was blinded and included 9 subwoofer enthusiasts, folks couldn't tell the difference between sealed, ported, and horn.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1387178/archaeas-kansas-city-blind-subwoofer-shootout-2012

Hey L,

No disrespect to anyone who holds a GTG and reports the results, but you gotta be kidding with the ported vs sealed comparison. rolleyes.gif

Having a closer look at the stretched FRs that Seaton, Jeff and Omnimic prefer to use:

Art's HT with 4 X SMs, same when the SMs are pushed and the SM from the GTG you cited:

21f8646fdf17587f5dc5cc5f17323bcb.jpg

The SMs limiters change its in-room F3 @ Art's HT by almost an octave. No reason to think the same wouldn't happen at the cited GTG, which FR starts off far less optimistic than the response in Art's HT.

The black trace is the SMs FR at the GTG and the dashed black trace projects its FR as it's pushed and the limiters kick in, more or less. Sorta looks like a ported sub, no?

The subs in the GTG room vary by 20dB between them and the SM doesn't even resemble itself FR-wise. Great way to give a blind opinion... not.
Edited by bossobass - 8/27/13 at 3:50pm
post #68 of 124
@ Bosso

I am not about to argue what you and nupe are saying. At least not in the sense that I think it is wrong. However i believe you are answering a question that no one asked.. Try re-reading post #1. In that context i believe it is really bad advice on the part of nupe to advice using your "0.01 liter fomula". Much less is also good and that is what OP is seeking advice for. You guys really need to reconnect with earth wink.gif
post #69 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

not sure what "formula" you guys are using to get 18 subwoofers as a requirement. that's goofy.

the Dayton is 1090 cm^2 sd, has 2.0 cm one way excursion (measured), * 2 = 4360 cm^3 displacement or ~4.4 liters displacement per unit.

the Adire Tumult has 749 cm^2 sd, has 3.4 cm one way excursion (spec) * 2 = 4794 cm^3 displacement or ~4.8 liters displacement per unit.
'

Check your math on the Tumult.
post #70 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by splotten View Post

@ Bosso

I am not about to argue what you and nupe are saying. At least not in the sense that I think it is wrong. However i believe you are answering a question that no one asked.. Try re-reading post #1. In that context i believe it is really bad advice on the part of nupe to advice using your "0.01 liter fomula". Much less is also good and that is what OP is seeking advice for. You guys really need to reconnect with earth wink.gif

You are indeed arguing with me fella.

Try not doing that and instead post your recommendation for the OP from your planet. wink.gif
post #71 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

LTD02,
the only time my sealed setups were better than the ported or horn setups were when I had a boost down low, otherwise the Horn or ported had more output down there naturally. You need to have enough displacement and boost to extend to single digits or at least to be flat to where the others go to experience the differences and then you need a source to have content down there to begin with.

This^^^

And it proves the point we're trying to make.

All commercial subs have the same limiter-induced squashed low end response when pushed to reference levels. Add enough of them until the limiters do not kick in and you'll see that the formula works pretty well.
post #72 of 124
I think we made a mistake using Audyssey at the blind sub GTG. I think we should have just level matched and made sure each pair of subs were in the same spot.

Hindsight though....

One of these days I'm going to convince (ha, probably wouldn't take much convincing) Archaea to do another blind comparison at his place or mine between some of my sealed SI's and his ported Caps. With the minidsp we could get the frequency response identical except for below the tuning of the Caps.

I know I do like bass below 20hz, but I'm not sure about below 10hz. In the f'n Irene scene in Black Hawk Down, I get a ton of door rattles (sounds like they all want to blow open) and creaking of the house but really that's all that happens. I don't really feel anything and I sure don't hear much if any bass. Is it the lack of a suspended floor perhaps? I would think that I have enough displacement to get the effect of >10hz. If not, I'm not sure if I want anymore since the house is crying uncle anyway.

As far as the Dayton HO goes, there is no way it only has 12 mm. I don't know why Dayton publishes that but it cannot be right. I have compared a dual opposed Dayton to a single Seaton Submersive and then later dual single 18 SI subs to a single Submersive and in both cases the Submersive had slightly less output. I haven't compared the Dayton to the SI head to head but I'm willing to bet they would measure and sound pretty much identical. The SI does have the advantage that it needs less watts, but it's not huge difference.
post #73 of 124
BTW, I tried my own experiment using the minidsp HPF at 10hz to see if I could tell a difference on some of the great LFE scenes. I don't know if I was doing something wrong, but even using a 48db slope at 10hz I was loosing way too much bass all the way up in the 20hz range.
post #74 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by nograveconcern View Post

The PE xmax spec is based on geometry, not distortion. The practical, usable excursion is 18-20mm. I believe all the reference series drivers are spec-ed low like this. Why? It probably comes down to the added cost of testing.

LTD02 - sd on the HO 18 is 1164cm2 so the displacement comes out to 4.66 liters.

Well in that case its a guessing-game. Either way it doesn't change the point I was trying to make: That Bossos "0.01 liter equation" is kind of over the top in relation to what OP is asking for. Even if we can squeeze 4.66 liter displacement out of the Dayton you are still going to end up with 12 subwoofers. Do you really believe that that is what OP is asking for?
post #75 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by splotten View Post


Well in that case its a guessing-game. Either way it doesn't change the point I was trying to make: That Bossos "0.01 liter equation" is kind of over the top in relation to what OP is asking for. Even if we can squeeze 4.66 liter displacement out of the Dayton you are still going to end up with 12 subwoofers. Do you really believe that that is what OP is asking for?

The goal of the OP is a guessing game.

True, I don't believe the OP is asking for reference playback and FBW. If -6db ref is the goal than 12 HO 18's drops to 6.

We need a clear goal. 98 percentile isn't a clear goal and has generated much, albeit entertaining, conjecture within this tread.
post #76 of 124
Seems like people are talking past each other. The 0.01 formula is for those looking for reference level performance without pushing drivers to their ragged edge. The OP is looking for a bit less than that, I'd wager. lol.

All that said, I now know what I need to do to get my HT where I need it. I get great extension augmented by Buttkickers, but 1 more SI-18 would get me to reference (potentially). 2 would help with symmetry, tho.....

Sorry for the off topic drift. wink.gif
post #77 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

BTW, I tried my own experiment using the minidsp HPF at 10hz to see if I could tell a difference on some of the great LFE scenes. I don't know if I was doing something wrong, but even using a 48db slope at 10hz I was loosing way too much bass all the way up in the 20hz range.

A better experiment is to use a low pass at 15 Hz with a 48 dB slope so you are only playing below 15 Hz. Now find out how much you hear. At the Omaha Home Theater Tour last October I did that with the KC group that attended and stayed for supper. We used the cop car scene from The Incredible Hulk. Archaea measured the output at around 115 dB. We couldn't hear anything but could feel the floor shake some.
post #78 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I think we made a mistake using Audyssey at the blind sub GTG. I think we should have just level matched and made sure each pair of subs were in the same spot.

Hindsight though....

One of these days I'm going to convince (ha, probably wouldn't take much convincing) Archaea to do another blind comparison at his place or mine between some of my sealed SI's and his ported Caps. With the minidsp we could get the frequency response identical except for below the tuning of the Caps.

I know I do like bass below 20hz, but I'm not sure about below 10hz. In the f'n Irene scene in Black Hawk Down, I get a ton of door rattles (sounds like they all want to blow open) and creaking of the house but really that's all that happens. I don't really feel anything and I sure don't hear much if any bass. Is it the lack of a suspended floor perhaps? I would think that I have enough displacement to get the effect of >10hz. If not, I'm not sure if I want anymore since the house is crying uncle anyway.

As far as the Dayton HO goes, there is no way it only has 12 mm. I don't know why Dayton publishes that but it cannot be right. I have compared a dual opposed Dayton to a single Seaton Submersive and then later dual single 18 SI subs to a single Submersive and in both cases the Submersive had slightly less output. I haven't compared the Dayton to the SI head to head but I'm willing to bet they would measure and sound pretty much identical. The SI does have the advantage that it needs less watts, but it's not huge difference.

Irene is a great scene to SpecLab and compare the subs vs the content, but, they resemble simultaneous odd-order sine waves. I never got much out of that in my room either, just as I wouldn't by playing those same frequency sine waves as are the fundamentals in Irene at the same time. Just a confirmation of accurate playback with inaudible distortion.

Really, a lot of folks might have opened eyes if they used SpecLab to verify FR and low distortion using Irene. I sure wish it was SOP for a GTG.
post #79 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Loudness is a matter of personal preference.

The goal should be fidelity.


A dozen years ago, when the light bulb went off for me and I realized that sealed + room gain was the only way to achieve accurate reproduction, I built a simple 1 X 12" sealed system and began testing the results.

Luckily, I met Phil Marchand at CES and he showed and explained to me how his Bassis signal shaper worked. I bought one, went home and set about measuring the FR of the sub with no signal shaping and with signal shaping.

Back then, I had to use the RS meter, a CD with 1/12 octave sine wave tones and a C weight correction file and played the tones, noted the reading, added the correction number and plotted them on graph paper I made myself.

47f349d6af13795e308fc15c67f3b559.jpg

I mentioned meeting Marchand was luck because his Bassis is flat to 2 Hz. The preamp I was using was -3dB @ 3 Hz and the amplifier was -3dB @ 5 Hz. I had no idea that was the case back then, so I have to refer to it as dumb luck.

In 2003, I built my 1st dual-opposed sub using 15s and soon afterward I bought a state of the art mic/mic pre/mic PS/Interface that's flat to 2-4 Hz, but I was still limited on the low end as TrueRTA & REW only went to 10 Hz, as did REW. I got Sample Champion by Pure Bits and began slogging through the <10 Hz learning curve. I rarely mentioned that I had the program and had stopped mentioning measurement <10 Hz because of the avalanche of nonsense it evoked. Lots of folks told me the measurements were in error. Wrong windowing, noise floor, HVAC, etc. One respected member actually said a bus or a truck must have been driving by when the measurement was made. tongue.gif

In late '05, early '06 REW extended capability to 2 Hz. Awesome.

By then, Adire had the Tumult. 5+ liters in a 15" driver. I expanded the system to 4 X 15" in 2-dual opposed sealed enclosures, then tried 8 X 15". As Nube mentioned, I posted a formula for building a system to reach reference level in whatever size room in full BW. Using that formula, I was slightly under the displacement requirement with the 4 X 15" Tumult system (just under 22 liters of displacement for 3500 cubes of listening space), but I rarely played back at ref level and have always kept my system calibrated flat with the mains, so it was good enough.

I found that 8 X 15" was overkill for me, but that's where you get back to the 1st sentence in my post. How loud you play is a personal problem that's solved by adding multiples and is a side issue to the question of accurate reproduction.

For reference, it takes almost 2 of the Dayton 18" HOs to equal a single 15" Tumult, which was also equal in displacement to the SI-18" HT driver.

The bulk of my posts since '04 have been focused on <20 Hz playback; is it there, is it intended, how can it be verified as being on a disc, is it audible/perceivable, does it add to the listening experience, etc. Let's face it, <20 Hz is easily accomplished by using the resonant system of one's choice. The 20-20k Hz spec has been around for a very long time and content and playback below that had not been around until relatively very recently.

So, using 8 X 18" HOs may seem grotesquely overkill to most people but that's really only 22-1/2 liters of displacement (rated). Four 15" Tumults, four SI-18s equals that and three UXL-18s equals that, etc.

My opinion has always been that I couldn't care less what most people do or are satisfied with. That has zero relevance and is based entirely on ignorance of the task at hand. Everyone who's exposed to the difference has noticed the difference. It's a simple test, I've conducted the test many times over the years and the results are 100%. This is why, when people say they don't notice any appreciable difference, I simply reply that they haven't experienced the difference.

Here's the result of one of those tests. A 20 Hz ported sub vs a full BW sealed sub. Carefully level matched where they are flat. Same scene played A/B in unknown order and asking the listeners to describe the difference, if any. This is what it looked like from the in-room FR and mic'd SL waterfall perspectives:

73ed7d024b1a422924d09cd8d7f972bc.jpg

4f2ee0b7278f8da5395a4864062f7e5d.gifpicasion gif maker

In my room, using very accurate measurement hardware, the ported subs do not have usable output below tune. This differs quite a bit from what many ported sub owners claim, but the data is what it is and has been consistent with 4 different well known ported commercial subs over the years.

GTGs usually become loudness wars. The problem with that is there is no data gathered other than how loud each sub played. Commercial subs use sophisticated limiters that radically change the FR of the sub, so as level is pushed up, the low end begins to disappear. A simple SpecLab cap would show this phenomenon, but so far, no one has semed willing to set up for and gather that data, leaving only subjective impressions, for what that's worth.

The requirement is to have a signal chain that feeds the content to the drivers, to properly set the voltage gain of the components in the signal chain, to have enough displacement for the drivers to respond within their operating parameters, to properly shape the signal to modify the native response of the subs to properly mate with whatever room gain profile and to have enough amplifier power to amplify that boosted signal within the amplifiers rated operating parameters.

And, yes Steve, I believe that ref level in a bedroom is just silly. I use a single 12" system and it's plenty. cool.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by splotten View Post


Well in that case its a guessing-game. Either way it doesn't change the point I was trying to make: That Bossos "0.01 liter equation" is kind of over the top in relation to what OP is asking for. Even if we can squeeze 4.66 liter displacement out of the Dayton you are still going to end up with 12 subwoofers. Do you really believe that that is what OP is asking for?

I've quoted myself and bolded the part you apparently missed Hope this helps you to realize the difference between running the subs hot with MV at 0dBRL in 5500 cubes and running the subs flat at -8dBRL in 3500 cubes. smile.gif
post #80 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I think we made a mistake using Audyssey at the blind sub GTG. I think we should have just level matched and made sure each pair of subs were in the same spot.

Hindsight though....

One of these days I'm going to convince (ha, probably wouldn't take much convincing) Archaea to do another blind comparison at his place or mine between some of my sealed SI's and his ported Caps. With the minidsp we could get the frequency response identical except for below the tuning of the Caps.

I know I do like bass below 20hz, but I'm not sure about below 10hz. In the f'n Irene scene in Black Hawk Down, I get a ton of door rattles (sounds like they all want to blow open) and creaking of the house but really that's all that happens. I don't really feel anything and I sure don't hear much if any bass. Is it the lack of a suspended floor perhaps? I would think that I have enough displacement to get the effect of >10hz. If not, I'm not sure if I want anymore since the house is crying uncle anyway.

Move two of your 18's behind your MLP one day just to do it... Near field for infrasound content makes a huge difference!

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

As far as the Dayton HO goes, there is no way it only has 12 mm. I don't know why Dayton publishes that but it cannot be right. I have compared a dual opposed Dayton to a single Seaton Submersive and then later dual single 18 SI subs to a single Submersive and in both cases the Submersive had slightly less output. I haven't compared the Dayton to the SI head to head but I'm willing to bet they would measure and sound pretty much identical. The SI does have the advantage that it needs less watts, but it's not huge difference.

Ricci tested the HO up to around 20mm xmax IIRC. No time to post the link to the test.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

BTW, I tried my own experiment using the minidsp HPF at 10hz to see if I could tell a difference on some of the great LFE scenes. I don't know if I was doing something wrong, but even using a 48db slope at 10hz I was loosing way too much bass all the way up in the 20hz range.

Maybe try to add a filter right at 10Hz and set the boost and Q to the max to offset the effect from the HPF. Haven't tried it myself, but might be worth a shot if you have the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Irene is a great scene to SpecLab and compare the subs vs the content, but, they resemble simultaneous odd-order sine waves. I never got much out of that in my room either, just as I wouldn't by playing those same frequency sine waves as are the fundamentals in Irene at the same time. Just a confirmation of accurate playback with inaudible distortion.

Really, a lot of folks might have opened eyes if they used SpecLab to verify FR and low distortion using Irene. I sure wish it was SOP for a GTG.

IRENE!!!!
post #81 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post



Move two of your 18's behind your MLP one day just to do it... Near field for infrasound content makes a huge difference!


Maybe try to add a filter right at 10Hz and set the boost and Q to the max to offset the effect from the HPF. Haven't tried it myself, but might be worth a shot if you have the time.

Both great ideas, I'll have to try em out sometime. When avs member Cowboys came over for a demo (Jonathan was here too) we tried the irene scene and I walked all over the room and didn't feel much of anything, but I fully believe you when you say your octo subs behind your chairs gives you a cool effect on that scene so I'll have to try it.

You have a concrete floor right? If so, there goes my theory about suspended floors and below 10hz content.
post #82 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Irene is a great scene to SpecLab and compare the subs vs the content, but, they resemble simultaneous odd-order sine waves. I never got much out of that in my room either, just as I wouldn't by playing those same frequency sine waves as are the fundamentals in Irene at the same time. Just a confirmation of accurate playback with inaudible distortion.

Really, a lot of folks might have opened eyes if they used SpecLab to verify FR and low distortion using Irene. I sure wish it was SOP for a GTG.

Scenes from Incredible Hulk would be better I assume? I'll have to try those out again and play with the minidsp.
post #83 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

A better experiment is to use a low pass at 15 Hz with a 48 dB slope so you are only playing below 15 Hz. Now find out how much you hear. At the Omaha Home Theater Tour last October I did that with the KC group that attended and stayed for supper. We used the cop car scene from The Incredible Hulk. Archaea measured the output at around 115 dB. We couldn't hear anything but could feel the floor shake some.

That's right, I forgot about that. Kevin and Jonathan told me about that. Dammit I should have been there... frown.gif
post #84 of 124
Thread Starter 
The back and forth by differing views on this question has been enlightening.. Even though the info Bosso posted is a repost I am glad it made it here cuz I had never seen it. But it is certainly good info to have. No I dont think I am looking for reference down that low but its a good reference to have for those of us who have never heard the Jtr CAp, SubM, orbit shifter, or big DIY subs.... Anything in this thread that can save/ help someone in planning for their bass needs is all good if you ask me.
post #85 of 124
"check your math"

oops. the tumult is 5.093 liters and depending on whether data-bass t/s or dayton t/s are used the 18ho is 4.4. or 4.6 liters.
post #86 of 124
"Near field for infrasound content makes a huge difference!"

? at 10hz the wavelength is 113 feet long, so you are in the nearfield from about 56 feet away (or is it 28?)! :-)
Edited by LTD02 - 8/27/13 at 10:33pm
post #87 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"check your math"

oops. the tumult is 5.093 liters and depending on whether data-bass t/s or dayton t/s are used the 18ho is 4.4. or 4.6 liters.

It calculates to 2.97 liters using the (weirdly under-spec'd) Dayton supplied numbers (1164 cm squared Sd x 25.5 mm total xmax).
post #88 of 124
my guess is the Dayton number is the coil overhang outside the gap. the 2.97 liter number is not representative.
post #89 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

my guess is the Dayton number is the coil overhang outside the gap. the 2.97 liter number is not representative.

I totally agree 2.97 liters Vd is not an accurate assessment of the HO, but that is what the factory numbers calculate out to. wink.gif

Despite Josh's test, Bosso (stubbornly?) likes to keep referencing the factory numbers:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosso 
For reference, it takes almost 2 of the Dayton 18" HOs to equal a single 15" Tumult, which was also equal in displacement to the SI-18" HT driver.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosso 
So, using 8 X 18" HOs may seem grotesquely overkill to most people but that's really only 22-1/2 liters of displacement (rated). Four 15" Tumults, four SI-18s equals that and three UXL-18s equals that, etc.

Or even worse -- at 22.5 liters Vd / 8 drivers, it seems he may be using the lower 1090 cm2 Sd # published on Data-Bass along with the 12.75mm one-way xmax. smile.gif
post #90 of 124
splotten, I think you're mostly just being argumentative. It sure seems like you ignored what I wrote and reacted to something else.

If you look at what I originally posted, I recommend the OP start with significantly less than 0.01L/cuft displacement. In fact, I recommend he start with less than half the amount of displacement called for by bosso's formula. Why would I do that? Because the OP states he doesn't want reference, just a good, capable system. What I recommended gets him there, and gives the potential for great smoothing of room modes.

You might think it's too much for a bedroom system, but we're not talking about a bedroom system. A whole lot of others have chimed in to describe, in detail, how your thinking is very selective and specific to your own notions of "enough."

What, again, were you arguing with me about?
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