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On the fence.... (2) SVS PB12-NSD VS (2) PSA XS15 - Page 2

post #31 of 120
4000-5000cu is like 20x25x9, it's not that big, any 2 ported sub will be more than enough, guys are fighting over a few db here, a few there when in reality, he be told to TURN IT DOWN from the kitchen or bedroom. I get that a lot and its not even at -16 on the receiver in a 14,000cu room. Of course I have dual very potent subs.
post #32 of 120
To imply that the Empire will get distress is not correct. Read the shootout of the Epik Empire HSU, Rythmik FV 15 and ED A 750. The Empire has a good low end and high end, the cea numbers also support that compared to the XV 15. A vented sub usually beat a sealed sub around 20 Hz but will drop off fast below it's tunning. A sealed sub will extend lower do to a slower roll off. A second sub should increased the headroom of a system. My Epik Legend perfors down to 20 Hz and it been used in the same with with multiple subs, for example SVS, two 15in. subs, and my 18 in. sub. As stated earlier 2 Empires or 2 XV 15's is a lateral move at best. And, that is not saying anything negative on the PSA subs which are excellent.

The Epik Empire once was a favorite of many on this forum until poor customer service killed them and left many customer frustrated with dead amps.
Edited by derrickdj1 - 8/27/13 at 11:45pm
post #33 of 120
Here is a great review of the Empire by Ricci. He does say that the 20 Hz area is a weak spot and driver distress can be heard. It looks like a great sub, but if it breaks, fixing it may not be a simple matter since Epik's present business state seems ambiguous. All I am suggesting is to keep it away from the material it would struggle with, because that may help the sub last longer, and also might make it easier to integrate with other subs.
post #34 of 120
My mistake, I was comparing the XV 15 to the Empire at database.com. I did not see any numbers for the XS 15. Which should have less output than the XV 15 since it s a sealed design.
Edited by derrickdj1 - 8/28/13 at 12:01am
post #35 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Here is a great review of the Empire by Ricci. He does say that the 20 Hz area is a weak spot and driver distress can be heard. It looks like a great sub, but if it breaks, fixing it may not be a simple matter since Epik's present business state seems ambiguous. All I am suggesting is to keep it away from the material it would struggle with, because that may help the sub last longer, and also might make it easier to integrate with other subs.

Do you have a high pass filter on your ULS-15s which are weak in the <20hz range? Probably not because you are not pushing them that hard, right? If he adds two more subs that have good output at 20hz, this is a moot point.
post #36 of 120
Thread Starter 
Did not mean to get any arguments started.

My main goal was to get a little more even response across the listening area, not vibrate the walls so low end extension is not the first concern. How well they will integrate into the room also is a factor as this is a living room and not a dedicated HT room.

Right now the VTF-3 MK4 is the front runner as it has more tuning options. I originally was not considering this as it was side firing, but don't think that would be a problem as the woofer side would not be right up against anything. As far as looks, it also wins.

Right behind is the PSA XV15.

Integrating the Empire is also a good possibility, as I don't really have any use for it anywhere else.
post #37 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Lol, relax, I am just letting the OP know about other options. Most people don't know about the Dayton kits, unfortunately, and I'm sure the dual driver kit would destroy everything under $1k which isn't outright DIY. As for the XV driver, sorry, it just does not look very good. Do you really think anyone could sell a serious 15" sub for $800 shipped without taking any shortcuts? One look at the driver explains what they cut, and, sadly, that is just about the last place I would want to shortchange a subwoofer. At least the Traix driver doesn't look bad.

I dont buy it...this is your normal pitch to push HSU but you throw another brand in there so it does not look so obvious. rolleyes.gif

Another thing that is comical is the fact you mention the ULS15 would be a killer option but yet the op should put a filter on the Empire...please explain that logic?

The XV15 is not short changing anything!! You obviously do not have a clue and that sad part is this forum still lets you post this banter.
post #38 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

To imply that the Empire will get distress is not correct. Read the shootout of the Epik Empire HSU, Rythmik FV 15 and ED A 750. The Empire has a good low end and high end, the cea numbers also support that compared to the XV 15. A vented sub usually beat a sealed sub around 20 Hz but will drop off fast below it's tunning. A sealed sub will extend lower do to a slower roll off. A second sub should increased the headroom of a system. My Epik Legend perfors down to 20 Hz and it been used in the same with with multiple subs, for example SVS, two 15in. subs, and my 18 in. sub. As stated earlier 2 Empires or 2 XV 15's is a lateral move at best. And, that is not saying anything negative on the PSA subs which are excellent.

The Epik Empire once was a favorite of many on this forum until poor customer service killed them and left many customer frustrated with dead amps.

The op only has one Empire...so adding 2 XV15's would be more then a lateral move. in the 15-31hz range. Also if I remember correctly the OP wants a pair of subs to smooth the response, so peak output is not the main concern. However I do agree with you.... The Empire is no slouch, but according to ShadyJ there is no serious 15" subwoofer for 800.00. Must be the cheap drivers, better put a high pass filter on it rolleyes.gif
Edited by basshead81 - 8/28/13 at 5:57am
post #39 of 120
Hi there, OP! I own a PC12-NSD (roughly identical in performance to the PB12-NSD) and a pair of XS15s, but in a much smaller space (a tiny 1600 cu. ft. living room that has an opening to a not-much-larger small apartment). From my experience, I would say that you'd be better served by a pair of XV15s in your 4-5000 cu. ft. space. This is partly a matter of output--in your large space you need as much as you can get, and across most of the pass band, the XV15 has substantially more than the PB12-NSD--and partly a matter of rolloff characteristics. In my small space, i can count on my room to gain up the low end. Your room probably doesn't do this, so you should be looking at subs that have a flatter response down low (although this comes at the expense of the *truly* deep tones that PSA's sealed subs can generate).

I'll also say this to the OP: when choosing subwoofers, there are a lot of factors to consider. Warranty is one of them, as is shipping expense. Closely consider what the various manufacturers are *really* offering you, when you tally up everything it'll cost to have them ship a unit to you, and what will happen when in three years you find that your amplifier doesn't turn on anymore.
post #40 of 120
Thread Starter 
Correct, smoothing the response is the top priority.
I don't think the Empire would struggle as I don't play it loud enough to distress it.
If looks were the primary factor, I would probably go SVS PB12-NSD as it is the smallest and probably the easiest to blend into the room.
If output, then the PSA
The HSU MAY be the best compromise between the first two as it is the most flexible as far as tuning options.
If the Empire dies, then I would most likely not worry about getting it fixed.
post #41 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppaC View Post

Correct, smoothing the response is the top priority.
I don't think the Empire would struggle as I don't play it loud enough to distress it.
If looks were the primary factor, I would probably go SVS PB12-NSD as it is the smallest and probably the easiest to blend into the room.
If output, then the PSA
The HSU MAY be the best compromise between the first two as it is the most flexible as far as tuning options.
If the Empire dies, then I would most likely not worry about getting it fixed.

Fwiw The PB12-NSD and XV15 are very close in size. I would go with either SVS or PSA for the warranty and customer service alone. Both will serve you well! I am not implying one is better then the other just reporting what Brian Finberg and a few others that owned both have posted. From what I gather between the the PB-NSD and XV15, the XV15 is favored. Between the XS15 and SB12, the SB12 is favored.

PB12-NSD- 20.9(h) 17.3(w) 22(d)

XV15- 23(h) 17(w) 22(d)

VTF-3 MK4 21.25(h) 17.75(w)) 25(d)
post #42 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

I had a pair and they were great little subs.

Isn't the above a bit like a young man, standing in front of the girl of his dreams as she's saying....."You're a nice guy.....but....."

...tongue.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by club968 View Post

Even if you were considering 4 ULS15s, I don't think that would provide the low frequency extension you might want in a room that size. You would probably need something like 4 submersives. And honestly I don't think that would get you that low in 6000+ cubic feet.. My room is also about 6100 cubic feet. I think a couple of high output ported subs would be your best bet. Or some powerful DIY setup.

What's being missed by some, just saying, this is a conundrum that revolves around aesthetics and limited placement options due to size constraints.
post #43 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppaC View Post

Did not mean to get any arguments started.

It wasn't you or your question. Any question has the potential of being viewed as "red meat." tongue.gif

Quote:
Right now the VTF-3 MK4 is the front runner as it has more tuning options.

What AVR are you using. Do you have separate EQ'g capability?
post #44 of 120
Also since Shady likes to bag on drivers lets see some pics shall we.

PB12-NSD



X15



VTF-3



The VTF-3 has a stamped steel basket, budget binding post, oh and wait is that a triple stacked magnet? Hold on Shady, I thought you said that was no good because that type of magnet lacks VC control?
post #45 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

...but according to ShadyJ there is no serious 15" subwoofer for 800.00. Must be the cheap drivers, better put a high pass filter on it rolleyes.gif

In my young man days, I found the cheap date to be the most fun:

It's a tie between Confederate Railroad and Gretchen Wilson on this point.
post #46 of 120
Hahaha *it's on*
post #47 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

Hahaha *it's on*
I know, is it not to funny. Every website I visit on a daily basis is a war.
post #48 of 120
Thread Starter 
Beeman:

AVR is Pioneer VSX-32
post #49 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

I know, is it not to funny. Every website I visit on a daily basis is a war.

well somebody needs to step up...im tired of his non sense.
post #50 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppaC View Post

Correct, smoothing the response is the top priority.
I don't think the Empire would struggle as I don't play it loud enough to distress it.
If looks were the primary factor, I would probably go SVS PB12-NSD as it is the smallest and probably the easiest to blend into the room.
If output, then the PSA

A forgotten point, the Empire is sealed and the XV15 is ported and this "WILL" create integration problems. In this case, to prevent acoustical conflict that can be a bear to deal with, sticking with sealed, whether SB12-NSD or XS15's, it's best advised to stick with sealed as opposed to going to a mix of sealed and vented.

(I have been chastised severely for wanting to do the same)

And yes, it can be done but with great effort, which most are not willing to put forth and then not properly dialing in this mismatch subwoofer set, will come great disappointment.

Quote:
AVR is Pioneer VSX-32

That's a sweet unit but for subwoofer EQ purposes, lags way behind Audyssey EQ software. Do you still have exchange privileges with the VSX-32? Have you had the unit long enough where you feel you can upgrade to a system that has Audyssey, MultEQ XT32.

You're kinda in a quandary here as, just saying, you're looking to create a killer system but gear choice and room aesthetics are killing your dream.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/28/13 at 8:26am
post #51 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Lol, relax, I am just letting the OP know about other options. Most people don't know about the Dayton kits, unfortunately, and I'm sure the dual driver kit would destroy everything under $1k which isn't outright DIY. As for the XV driver, sorry, it just does not look very good. Do you really think anyone could sell a serious 15" sub for $800 shipped without taking any shortcuts? One look at the driver explains what they cut, and, sadly, that is just about the last place I would want to shortchange a subwoofer. At least the Traix driver doesn't look bad.
Are you judging a woofer on looks? Explain the cuts? One cut they did not make is having their subs assembled in China. If you ask me, products made sateside are much more reliable. Also, if you look at any reviews, the Power X line has many top reviews and audiohaulics gave that cheap little XV15 sub of the year in the 2012 products of the year.
post #52 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

I know, is it not to funny. Every website I visit on a daily basis is a war.

....would you like some

So far it's been tame.
post #53 of 120
Shady, what is this? Compression kicking in on the VTF-3 before 105db?




and you dare bag on the xv15 compression? It plays 105db sweep with none...but its one ****** 800.00 sub huh?


Edited by basshead81 - 8/28/13 at 7:44am
post #54 of 120
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

A forgotten point, the Empire is sealed and the XV15 is ported and this "WILL" create integration problems. In this case, to prevent acoustical conflict that can be a bear to deal with, sticking with sealed, whether SB12-NSD or XS15's, it's best advised to stick with sealed as opposed to going to a mix of sealed and vented.

(I have been chastised severely for wanting to do the same)

And yes, it can be done but with great effort, which most are not willing to put forth and then not properly dialing in this mismatch subwoofer set, will come great disappointment.


Wouldn't the HSU still be in the running as the ports can be blocked, or do I not have a clear undertstanding of this?
The very first sub I looked at was the SB12-NSD but dismissed it as it appears to be much lighter than the other subs, and I was concerned that even two of them would not give me the output of the Empire.

. The sealed PSA subs are an option, but I'm not married to to the idea of keeping the Empire in the mix. The sealed PSAs might also be a near field option as they MIGHT be just small enough to slide under my end tables. I would have to go wireless on those, as there is a fireplace on the left wall. I just bought a wireless unit from Parts Express, but have not tried it out yet. Maybe test that out using my BIC F-12 just to see if wireless is an option....

Damn, now even another thing to think about

Wanted to mention again that I edited an earlier post on the cubic feet I'm looking at as some are still mentioning 4-5K. It's more like 6K, and vaulted ceiling in the L/R and kitchen so some substantial space to work with. That's why I was initially looking at a ported solution.
Edited by PoppaC - 8/28/13 at 7:49am
post #55 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

A forgotten point, the Empire is sealed and the XV15 is ported and this "WILL" create integration problems. In this case, to prevent acoustical conflict that can be a bear to deal with, sticking with sealed, whether SB12-NSD or XS15's, it's best advised to stick with sealed as opposed to going to a mix of sealed and vented..

Why?

I've heard this recommended before, and I have always wondered the reasoning behind it. Or is it possible this is one of those generalizations on this forum that is not true in all cases?
post #56 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppaC View Post

Wouldn't the HSU still be in the running as the ports can be blocked, or do I not have a clear undertstanding of this?

I have to wonder what compromise is going on with that. Not that I'm an expert on DIY, but optimum enclosure sizes for ported vs. sealed for the same driver in my experience are typically different. Seems better to go with a sealed sub that was designed to be a sealed sub, if that is what you want.
post #57 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Shady, what is this? Compression kicking in on the VTF-3 before 105db?




and you dare bag on the xv15 compression? It plays 105db sweep with none...but its one ****** 800.00 sub huh?



WOW! What a difference!

Alright I’ll post it again, sorry to some AVS members for the redundancy.. I'm not saying it can't be done, I have done it myself with subs on hand. I would never buy a sub with the intention of mixing though. just sayin



Bill Fitz,
It makes about as much engineering sense as putting a snow tire on one wheel of your car, a rain tire on another, a summer tire on the third and a racing slick on the fourth. The intent would be to have good performance in all road conditions, the result would be bad performance in any.

Ed Mullen
Unless you want to run the PB13-Ultra in sealed mode, quad SB13-Ultra would be the best choice. The PB13U (in vented mode) and SB13U have dissimilar frequency and phase responses and may not integrate optimally in-room. Even with the PB13U in sealed mode, it would not have an identical phase response as the SB13U (but it would certainly be closer than vented mode). Ideally though, quad SB13U would be optimal.
post #58 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Why?

I've heard this recommended before, and I have always wondered the reasoning behind it. Or is it possible this is one of those generalizations on this forum that is not true in all cases?

I have seen several on this forum integrate both with success or so they claim...but yes most do not recomend it because of phase issues around the ported subs tuning point. My question is when you are talking infrasonic frequency is phase really a issue being that those frequencies are felt more than they are audible?
post #59 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

I have to wonder what compromise is going on with that. Not that I'm an expert on DIY, but optimum enclosure sizes for ported vs. sealed for the same driver in my experience are typically different. Seems better to go with a sealed sub that was designed to be a sealed sub, if that is what you want.

Hear, hear! That transforming subwoofer trick always seems like a weird gimmick to me. Why not buy the subwoofer that's built to suit your room? Maybe some people buy a subwoofer with plans to move it from room to room, or maybe it made more sense back when there weren't many different models to choose from. However at this time it's a wide open sea of options, and I agree that the transforming subwoofer concept probably invokes compromise, at least during sealed operation. Why bother? Hardly seems like a selling point, except to people who don't get tired of fiddling with settings.
post #60 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I have seen several on this forum integrate both with success or so they claim...but yes most do not recomend it because of phase issues around the ported subs tuning point. My question is when you are talking infrasonic frequency is phase really a issue being that those frequencies are felt more than they are audible?

Just one aspect.. A guy can wined up with less spl in the lower freq due to cancelations even though it’s now dual instead of the single.
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