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Your Home Theater ULF Score - Page 48

post #1411 of 1882
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I know you're ignoring me on this issue and have been for some time.

I'm sharing my nearfield experience and what my rational is. From personal experience, it's energy disbursement. The further from the energy source, the less one is able to perceive it's existence.

Flexture of the floor is a general transference, over a large area. Tactile sensation is a nearfield experience and one has to jack up the energy source to pass the sensation on down the line in the same way, dB falls off at 6dB per doubling of distance.

With the nearfield subwoofer close at my back, I feel lots of tactile sensation but the wife, two or three feet to my side, in a separate chair, doesn't feel anything in this regard.

(subwoofers; two FV15HPs)

(it's rude to intentionally ignore a sincere participant and if you will, if you don't wish me to participate in this conversation, man up and say so)

...mad.gif

-

Too much eggnog Bee... ;)

 

Not sure why you think I'm ignoring you...not on purpose if I've missed something.

 

I agree with you on the distance and energy theory as I stated below:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

 

Based on this test here, it shows that SPL as measured by an SPL measurement device does not solely determine the tactile sensation for ULF. Even though the farfield subs measured at the same SPL as the nearfield subs, the couch shaking effect was much more pronounced with the nearfield subs. I had to increase the farfield subs by 20db to get a similar shaking effect. The theory is that acoustic energy is what primarily drives the tactile feeling, and acoustic energy is stronger when the distance is close and is produced directly from the sub (as opposed to SPL from room gain). SPL meters are not the right device to measure this acoustic energy. At this point, this is still an open question as to how this acoustic energy can be accurately measured.

 

Since nearfield subs drive the tactile feeling as compared to farfield subs, the frequency response of the nearfield subs should give a better representation of tactile feeling. In my room, the dual FV15HPs have the below nearfield response:

 

Based on the above, you would think I would have the most tactile feeling 25 and 50hz. I would also have good tactile feeling from 11hz to 18hz as well.

 

So I took the Vibration Meter and measured the vibration between the frequencies of 10hz to 80hz and plotted on a chart with the response of my nearfield FV15HPs. The main volume on the receiver as -20db for this test.

 

Here is the Vibration Meter scale (Mercalli scale):

 

1.0 - Instrumental. Felt by animals
2.0 - Weak. Felt indoors by a few people
3.0 - Slight. Felt indoors by several
4.0 - Moderate. Hanging objects swing
5.0 - Rather Strong. Dishes broken
6.0 - Strong. Heavy furniture moved
7.0 - Very Strong. Difficult to stand
8.0 - Destructive. Fall of walls
9.0 - Violent. Noticeable ground cracks
10.0 - Intense. Almost destroyed
11.0 - Extreme. Rails bent greatly
12.0 - Cataclysmic. Total destruction

 

As you can see by the pink line, I get the majority of the couch shaking in my room starting at 11hz or so to about 21hz. After that, the couch shaking levels out to barely any shaking at less than 1. You can see by the blue line, that the shaking does not match the frequency response entirely, especially past 20hz where I have the strongest SPL, but the weakest couch shaking.

 

I have two theories why this is: 1. The resonant frequencies of my couch, 2. ULF frequencies wobble the foundation of the couch (imagine someone grabbing the base of your couch and shaking) with slower vibrations, whereas the higher LF frequencies are quicker vibrations and more directional (e.g. back massage chairs) as well as have the kick in the chest type sensations. The ladder isn't accurately measured by a phone on the based of the couch and perhaps why it drops off in the audible frequencies. It would be interesting if I could somehow measure the shaking that is happening on the cushions behind your back, as I'm sure there is lots of shaking going on in the upper bass frequencies.

 

So we are good there.

 

However, this does not answer the debate around ported shaking more than sealed in my room. In the test reference in post #1412, the FV15HP and the FTW21 were placed in the same position nearfield behind the couch. Distance is the same.

post #1412 of 1882
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by below90hz View Post

One thing to keep in mind Dom - the results of your tests don't really mean much at this point. <- Read that in a friendly tone of voice, cuz I don't mean that in a disparaging way of course, but as a reminder that any scientific experiment must be carried out repeatedly with many many trials to cover all variables. You are performing tests with only one specific subwoofer, in one specific room, in one house with its own specific construction. You would need many different types of subwoofer builds in many different environments (and/or one acoustically neutral environment) to get the full picture of the relationship between tactile feedback, sub build, frequency, SPLs and placement. So as it is, imho your tests should at best be considered only as indicative, not conclusive.

My point: I think that it would be a good idea to invite others to start doing their own tests to add to your data regarding tactile feedback. Maybe another thread is in order?
smile.gif

Agree Below...

 

The only thing conclusive about this test is what's happening in my room. As you mention, the hope is to spark more conversation on the topic and get others subjective and objective information. 

 

Believe it or not, I started thinking about this a while back. I remember reading your shootout thread with your bro and how you mentioned that the VTF shook the couch the most. At that time I called bluff, and said that was impossible...and here I am today. :)

 

As N8Dogg and a few others have pointed out, others have subjectively had similar experiences. I think this is the first objective experience one that I know of...

post #1413 of 1882
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Too much eggnog Bee... wink.gif

Not sure why you think I'm ignoring you...not on purpose if I've missed something.

Several times I've mentioned about distance from the energy source and every comment has remained unresponded to.
post #1414 of 1882
dbl post
post #1415 of 1882
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Several times I've mentioned about distance from the energy source and every comment has remained unresponded to.

Geez man, simmer down, he says he missed it, so he missed it. It's not the end of the world.
post #1416 of 1882
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Think fluid dynamics.

Our nearfield sub is three feet from where I sit to where the wife sits, two feet further away. She feels the floor, but not tactile sensation.

The point, the further from the end of the hose, the more dispersed (weak) the stream at the end of the hose; fluid dynamics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I know you're ignoring me on this issue and have been for some time.

I'm sharing my nearfield experience and what my rational is. From personal experience, it's energy disbursement. The further from the energy source, the less one is able to perceive it's existence.

Flexture of the floor is a general transference, over a large area. Tactile sensation is a nearfield experience and one has to jack up the energy source to pass the sensation on down the line in the same way, dB falls off at 6dB per doubling of distance.

With the nearfield subwoofer close at my back, I feel lots of tactile sensation but the wife, two or three feet to my side, in a separate chair, doesn't feel anything in this regard.

(subwoofers; two FV15HPs)

(it's rude to intentionally ignore a sincere participant and if you will, if you don't wish me to participate in this conversation, man up and say so)

...mad.gif

-

Your posts haven't been responded to because they have no basis in physical reality.

At 15 Hz, the spherical wave is bouncing off multiple surfaces in milliseconds.

Inside a meter, it's the higher frequencies that you feel as stronger because… they are stronger.

Dom's focus is at 15 Hz because this is technically infra and at a frequency both his alignments can reproduce with authority.

Put together a high quality measurement rig, properly calibrate it and add something to the discussion beyond a simple observation and an irrelevant explanation with no data.
post #1417 of 1882
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

At 15 Hz, the spherical wave is bouncing off multiple surfaces in milliseconds.

Inside a meter, it's the higher frequencies that you feel as stronger because… they are stronger.

Well, it's nice to know that neither my wife or I are experiencing what it is we're experiencing. It's always comforting to know we're delusional and you know the reason why, even though nobody has explained the nature of the phenomenon being discussed.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 12/27/13 at 1:05pm
post #1418 of 1882
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Agree Below...The only thing conclusive about this test is what's happening in my room. As you mention, the hope is to spark more conversation on the topic and get others subjective and objective information.

Believe it or not, I started thinking about this a while back. I remember reading your shootout thread with your bro and how you mentioned that the VTF shook the couch the most. At that time I called bluff, and said that was impossible...and here I am today. smile.gif

Haha yeah we wouldn't have believed us either if we hadn't sat in the room and experienced first hand. Guess we're all a bunch of doubting Thomases. Anywho I'm glad you took my comments as a spark to more discussion, that's exactly how I meant it. I really would be interested in another thread dedicated to tactile feedback observations, maybe with a standard chart listing common variables to be filled out. btw - the funny thing is - when i borrowed the Hsu VTF from madaeel it wound up having the least tactile feedback of all the subs in my basement theater on conc slab.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post


Your posts haven't been responded to because they have no basis in physical reality.
...
Put together a high quality measurement rig, properly calibrate it and add something to the discussion beyond a simple observation and an irrelevant explanation with no data.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Well, it's nice to know that neither my wife or I are experiencing what it is we're experiencing. It's always comforting to know we're delusional and you know the reason why, even though nobody has explained the nature of the phenomenon being discussed.-

guess bosso is just another doubting Thomas biggrin.gif

seriously beeman, i think most everyone reading the thread takes your observations as valid input to the discussion, same as everyone else's. smile.gif
post #1419 of 1882
Thread Starter 

Below90...how is it you only have 309 posts? Doesn't make sense...

 

All this talk about shaking couches and vibration is all about ULF perception, IMO. You can see in my room why I am a ULF hunter...my couch lights up when it happens. I can't wait to visit an HT like Bosso's where his sweet spot is DC to 10hz. I don't have test tones below 10hz, but would subjectively say nothing happens to the couch in those frequencies.

 

Ultimately, it goes back to the purpose of this thread...comparing HT rooms for ULF perception. It started out as a function of SPL, extension, and the size of the room. Based on the thread's discussions, we have to add in construction of the floor, walls, furniture, sub design, and proximity of the subs to the main LP to truly determine "what ULF is like" in another HT.

 

I still want to create a tactile feedback scale...and will put together a straw man of what that looks like, but these discussions around sub design, acoustic energy, suspended floors, should all be factors (eventually) in the scoring.

post #1420 of 1882
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

I don't have test tones below 10hz...


Fixed

http://www.realmofexcursion.com/downloads.htm
post #1421 of 1882
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Fixed

http://www.realmofexcursion.com/downloads.htm
Thx archaea....I'm going to have to give the less than 10hz stuff a shot. I may have to move my couch nearfield to the ftw21s to see if it does anything to my couch.
post #1422 of 1882
Thread Starter 

New Post Stickies

  • Post 3 - ULF Perception and Tactile Feedback Score (TBD)
  • Post 4 - Deep Dive into Indirect Tactile Feedback and SPL Nearfield vs Farfield tests
  • Post 5 - Indirect Tactile Feedback - Ported vs Sealed

 

These aren't new topics, but summaries of topics over the past couple hundred posts or so.

 

Feel free to post your questions/comments if I've misrepresented something.

 

-Dom

post #1423 of 1882
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
 

Indirect Tactile Feedback - Ported vs Sealed in my room

 

In my limited experience from the HTs where I've been able to experience both ported and sealed in the same room (albeit only 2 HTs), I've found that ported seemed to have more ULF indirect tactile feedback compared to sealed. I've tested this before in my room by swapping my nearfield subs between ported and sealed, and played the famous ULF demo clips. In every clip, the ported had far more Indirect Tactile Feedback (couch shaking). However, since they were movie clips with many frequencies occurring, it was not conclusive.

 

So I wanted to re-perform the test in a more controlled fashion, using a 15hz sine wave.  I placed the 1 FTW21 behind the main LP ~1.5ft away from the mic, and ran the 15hz sine wave at 88db and 103db and measured the vibration using the Vibration Meter app on the android and recorded the results. I did the same using 1 FV15HP.

 

Here are the results:

 

88db 15hz sine wave test

 

FV15HP

  • Mean = 3.4
  • Max = 5.4

 

FTW21

  • Mean = 2.6
  • Max = 5.0

 

Observations: IMO, a difference in measurement from the Vibration Meter, but perhaps not conclusive.

 

103db 15hz sine wave test

 

FV15HP

  • Mean = 5.6
  • Max = 7.6

 

FTW21

  • Mean = 4.3
  • Max = 6.9

 

Observations: More shaking occurred with the FV15HP as the Mean values are a significant enough difference IMO. However, there also looks to be more 2nd harmonic distortion (30hz) compared to the FTW. This could be contributing to the additional shake. (I will say that even though it appears that 30hz is showing on the graph, I did not hear anything. I even played it at much higher volumes, and I didn't hear the 30hz signal.)

 

However...see below.

 

 

Look at 30hz and 45hz in the above plot of my Indirect Tactile Feedback using the Vibration Meter app; there is hardly any vibration going on compared to 15hz where it is the strongest. So, the 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion (30hz and 45hz respectively) don't produce any shaking at all.

 

If when playing a 15hz sine wave in my room, a ported sub shakes more than sealed, and harmonic distortions (above 20hz or so) don't provide any couch shaking, what is causing the additional shaking by the ported sub?

 

Perhaps the ported design produces more acoustic energy than sealed? This remains unanswered...

 

Conclusion:

  • In my room, Ported Designs shake the couch more than Sealed Designs. Before I had the Rythmik's, I owned dual Outlaw LFM1-EXs. I also performed less controlled tests to compare, and subjectively, the outlaws shook the couch more as well.

 

I have a theory to this...

 

Ported subs have more acoustic energy than sealed as they get closer to the ported subs tune. The reason for this is that acoustic energy is being emitted from both the driver and the port, whereas the sealed sub has only the driver producing acoustic energy. As the frequencies get closer to the ported subs tune, more sound is emitted through the port, and at is at its strongest at its tune. Additionally, the driver of the ported sub is also producing acoustic energy at this frequency.

 

In my test, 15hz is right around the tune of the FV15HP, and perhaps why there is a difference in shaking detected by the vibration meter. If my theory is correct, the further away you get from the ported subs tune, the less output from the port, and less acoustic energy from the port. This would mean that if I played a sine wave at 20hz and 25hz, the gap between how much the couch is shaking would close compared to sealed and be equivalent at some point.

 

I somewhat have the perfect storm in my room as the resonant frequency of my couch is right around 15hz as well...which means at this frequency, small increases in acoustic energy would equate to larger than normal vibrations compared to other frequencies further away.

 

I plan to test this in another HT to see if there is more vibration at their ported subs tune in his HT compared to other frequencies.

 

Thoughts?

post #1424 of 1882
Dom,

Seems like more "acoustical energy" would be generated from the volume of air displaced through the port.

It would make sense that it comes around port tune since most subs are useless below tune.
post #1425 of 1882
Thread Starter 

Thanks pop...it seems intuitive anyway.

 

It's probably due to my naivete, but I feel like the topic of acoustic energy is new in the context of ULF and tactile feedback. We've had one metric to measure by, and that was SPL. Traditionally, the school of thought was that SPL from far away would 'feel' the same as SPL very close because why would it feel any different when the SPL meter read the same? This is the problem having only one tool to use for your measuring stick. Vibration meters weren't widely accessible until the dawn of the iphone and android, so we didn't really have an easy way to measure acoustic energy objectively even indirectly.

 

I still don't know of a way to measure it directly...

post #1426 of 1882
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
 

ULF Perception

 

IMO, There are two types of ULF Perception:

  1. Indirect Tactile Feedback - ULF Feedback indirectly affecting the listener through objects they are touching (e.g. floor, couch, HT seating).
  2. Direct Tactile Feedback - ULF Feedback directly affecting the listener from sound waves/acoustic energy from the subwoofers.

 

This tactile feedback from ULF can be perceived in Layers. Each layer adds to a better perception of reality or "realistic recreation of the onscreen event" (realizing this is silly and why it is in quotes). I'll explain the ULF layers in an example:

 

I have 4.5 Star ULF at 10hz in my 1900cf room. I sit on concrete, with 2 FV15HPs a foot behind my couch, and dual FTW21s flanking the front screen. The room is sealed with 3 concrete surfaces. I recently watched the OHF Washington Monument scene multiple times to try and get a better understanding of the different aspects of ULF perception:

 

  1. I watch the scene at the main LP. ULF Layer 1 (Indirect Tactile Feedback): lots of great shaking and wobble that occurs through the ULF interacting with the couch
  2. I watch the scene standing up, separating myself from the couch. ULF Layer 2 (Direct Tactile Feedback): I lose the effect of the couch shaking...which certainly takes away from the effect. However, my clothes are exhibiting that same shaking/wobbling, almost like a fan was on. Keep in mind, I'm standing on concrete and no other object is interacting with me. I feel the 'weightiness' of the room, and movement/wobble of my clothes.
  3. I watch the scene again, but with tight under-armour type clothing so that my clothes don't move. ULF Layer 3 (Direct Tactile Feedback): nothing is interacting with me, but ULF sound waves. My focus shifts more to the weight of the room, perception of increased heart rate, slight perception of internal organs being batted around, perception of hair moving, pressure/'ear popping', etc.
  4. Sitting back down again, I replay the scene appreciating all 3 Layers at once.

 

The point of it all, is that the combination of all of the above, adds to the overall "realism" and what I experienced "in total" sitting in my main listening position. Take one of the layers away, and you're missing the potential of the ULF effect.

 

Layer 1 (Indirect TF) for this scene can be recreated by high ULF that interacts to objects that are in contact with you (couch, suspended floor), and potentially be recreated by properly implemented tranducers.

 

Layers 2 and 3 (Direct TF) for this scene can only be recreated by high ULF.

 

IMO, you need them all for the full ULF experience. :) 

 

Expanding the ULF Score: Tactile Feedback Score (TF Score)

 

The purpose of this thread is about having a frame of reference of others' Home Theaters ULF Perception. Over the course of the thread, we've come to realize that subwoofage per room size (cubic feet) is only part of the equation to determine what ULF is like in your room. Indirect Tactile Feedback plays a significant role in the perception of ULF. Those that have less Tactile Feedback perceive ULF less than those with more tactile feedback. Tactile feedback is highly dependent on the construction of your floor (concrete vs suspended), furniture that you sit on, and the nearfield placement of your subs.

 

I'm thinking about expanding the ULF score to two separate star ratings to get a view into how others' HT systems perceive ULF through transmission of other objects (suspended floor, seating, transducers, etc.). You would use the star rating that you currently have, and then create another Star rating to determine tactile feedback.

 

If we can say ULF does impact us in layers, Layer 1 = Indirect Tactile Feedback would be the new score that we would be measured. It would be largely subjective, but those with suspended floors, or nearfield placement, or properly implemented transducers, would heighten the ULF perception for Layer 1.

 

Layers 2 & 3 (Direct Tactile Feedback), IMO, can be largely attributed to the original ULF score/star rating as I believe it is a function of the pressurization your room.

 

I would want to keep them separate and not try a combined rating as I would let others subjectively decide on what's more important to them, Layer 1, or Layers 2 & 3. Let's just throw out some examples:

 

The best HT ULF experience would be one where you have a 4.5 star and above ULF rating at 5hz or 10hz, combined with a 5 Star Tactile Feedback rating. Where it becomes interesting is what if you have a 5 Star ULF rating at 20hz only, with a 5 Star TF rating? How would that compare? Or perhaps you have a 3.5 Star ULF rating with a 5 Star TF rating...or a 5 Star ULF rating with a 3 Star TF rating...how would they all compare against each other?

 

Get the picture? Again, Layers 2&3 can be contributed to the current ULF Star rating, and Layer 1 would be the new Star rating for Tactile Feedback (TF), and could even potentially bring tactile transducers into the mix?

 

As far as how to determine your TF rating, I could describe the experience of what each TF star encompasses, and then the member could simply select their category, or I could collect info about their flooring, sub placement, transducers, etc...probably more the former the more I think about it.

 

This TF Score is a work in progress and TBD at the moment.

Here is my first shot at the Indirect Tactile Feedback (ITF) Score:

 

 

Above are the components I believe are key to being able to perceive ULF indirectly through other objects. Just as the ULF score, these won't be perfect, but should generally give you an idea of the ULF experience of others Home Theaters. I derived these components based on the many posts by others in many threads of how ULF is perceived. 

 

For every component that you have at your main listening position, you would add those points to your total score.

 

For my HT:

  • Couch w/ULF Resonant Freq - 5
  • Nearfield ported sub placement (ULF Tune) - 3
  • Boundary against nearfield sub placement - 2

 

This would give me a total of 10, for a ITF score of 10.

 

My ULF stars are 4.5 @ 5hz.

 

The combined score would be your ULF Experience Score; ULF score plus ITF score. Your ULF Experience (ULFX?) score would give everyone idea of how much pressurization (subwoofage per cubic foot or Direct Tactile Feedback) you have as well as how that translates into vibrations in your room that are in contact with your body (ITF). This would be a much better way to capture the total ULF Experience in your room.

 

For me this would be:

 

4.5-10 @5hz

 

Keep in mind, this doesn't mean that every 4.5-10@5hz would be the same ULF experience. However, the hope that it will be at least equivalent from a wow factor perspective.

 

Also note, it's yet to be determined how scores rank against one another; a 5.0-2@5hz may have a more preferable ULF experience than a 4.5-10@5hz...the only way to know is for folks to demo each and determine which is better for them.

 

Feel free to weigh in on components, scoring, questions, etc.

 

If there is a better nomenclature for the above, I'm all ears... :) 

post #1427 of 1882
I think transducers should be given more points. Check http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ady5fjbbMgI
It is probably unrealistic but that is a lot of feedback smile.gif
post #1428 of 1882
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmedreda View Post

I think transducers should be given more weight. Check http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ady5fjbbMgI
It is probably unrealistic but that is a lot of feedback smile.gif

Wow...that's a crazy vid! :eek:

 

I have Clark Transducers in my non LP seats...in my room, they cannot keep up with my main LP. I actually blew the Clark's up trying to match the shake of my main LP that don't have transducers...(replaced under warranty-love parts express).

 

My experience with transducers are; they are most definitely better than no shaking..but can't accurately recreate the experience I have at my main LP with acoustic energy doing the shaking. It's much more natural compared to a mechanical vibration. However, my transducers are directly mounted to the couch...I've yet to experience quality transducers mounted to a riser...supposed to give a more natural feel.


Edited by dominguez1 - 1/1/14 at 8:50pm
post #1429 of 1882
Damn Dom,

You are putting in some work!

I don't have any real feedback...just along for the ride at this point.

biggrin.gif

That said, how did you find the resonant fq of your couch? Sine waves until you found a fq that provided the most feedback on your vibration app?
post #1430 of 1882
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Damn Dom,

You are putting in some work!

I don't have any real feedback...just along for the ride at this point.

biggrin.gif

That said, how did you find the resonant fq of your couch? Sine waves until you found a fq that provided the most feedback on your vibration app?

Yeah, this stuff is sickness for sure...thought this up on the trip home from the in-laws...

 

Exactly right. Used the vibration meter app with sine waves.

 

Trust me, you'll know right away if your couch or HT seating has a resonant frequency...place a sub nearfield and watch some ULF movies. If your couch feels like it's possessed...well, you have a ULF resonant frequency...

post #1431 of 1882
I just added the Crowsons and they give you just that final finishing touch. I swear WOTW at my place feels like an earthquake.
post #1432 of 1882
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

If we can say ULF does impact us in layers, Layer 1 = Indirect Tactile Feedback would be the new score that we would be measured. It would be largely subjective, but those with suspended floors, or nearfield placement, or properly implemented transducers, would heighten the ULF perception for Layer 1.

In the case of the above, there is no perception as what is happening, is happening in realtime. It's a bit of a visceral reaction. There's an emotional connection with the interaction....hey, I can feel it. The ground has moved, I can feel it. I'm physically connected to the sound track. A psycho-emotional connection.

(there's nothing indirect about it)

Quote:
Just as the ULF score, these won't be perfect,...

Maybe you're humble, maybe you're without a clue regarding how perfect your ULF thread is.

(there is nothing subjective about layer 1. it is real)

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 1/2/14 at 12:45am
post #1433 of 1882
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post


In the case of the above, there is no perception as what is happening, is happening in realtime. It's a bit of a visceral reaction. There's an emotional connection with the interaction....hey, I can feel it. The ground has moved, I can feel it. I'm physically connected to the sound track. A psycho-emotional connection.

(there's nothing indirect about it)
 

When I say Indirect, it's relative to the sound waves/acoustic energy. The energy is indirectly affecting you through the couch, floor, etc (e.g. the energy shakes the couch, and the couch in turn shakes you). Direct Tactile Feedback is when the waves directly affect you (e.g. hairs raise, pressurization, weight, chest slam(not ULF)).

 

In both examples above, they are directly playing a part in the ULF experience.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

(there is nothing subjective about layer 1. it is real)
 
 
Subjective was in reference to how it should be scored. Since then, however, I was able to come up an objective way to score based on the components of the tactile feedback I stated a few posts up.
post #1434 of 1882
I think I've got it and how you're using direct vs indirect. Thanks for the clarification.
post #1435 of 1882
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

I just added the Crowsons and they give you just that final finishing touch. I swear WOTW at my place feels like an earthquake.

Sweet! I'd like to hear more about what you think of the Crowson's.
post #1436 of 1882
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

I just added the Crowsons and they give you just that final finishing touch. I swear WOTW at my place feels like an earthquake.

Glad to hear you ended up going this route Dave.

Probably ended up saving you $15K...lol
post #1437 of 1882
Yeah, I forgot he was thinking of the Rotary sub. Dave, if you can not get low frequencies then no one can, except unless your signal chain drops but it does not. You guys should see the response of a cheap AVR compared to others I have owned.
post #1438 of 1882
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Sweet! I'd like to hear more about what you think of the Crowson's.
I have mine crossed at 34hz with a 48db rolloff. And I am applying a house curve to match subs which gives me a 7db difference from the crossover point to 5hz. This way the actuators come on gradually and I can not tell that they are there. How I would describe how that act would be that they shake the chair like if I had the volume turned up another 15-20 db. (Yes I can get extreme tactile effect when I really push the subs when using ear protection.) So I am effectively getting an extra 15-20db of tactile effect without the SPL to go with it. Setup correctly I would wager anyone to know they were there if they were not told about them. OH and BTW, I have 4 actuators for one chair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Glad to hear you ended up going this route Dave.

Probably ended up saving you $15K...lol
Actually , an install in Japan would just not work, I tried to see if it could some how, but being a custom install, it would not be worth the extra cash, just so I could get the extra SPL @ 1-2hz. I am already getting the SPL there anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Yeah, I forgot he was thinking of the Rotary sub. Dave, if you can not get low frequencies then no one can, except unless your signal chain drops but it does not. You guys should see the response of a cheap AVR compared to others I have owned.
You are absolutely correct, which is another reason why I gave up on the Rotary sub, it won't bring much to the table for me. Where as the Crowsons do.
post #1439 of 1882
Good. After watching you install what you have it would break my heart to see you dump $15k on a rotary system.

Crowson's were the right choice. smile.gif
post #1440 of 1882
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post


I have mine crossed at 34hz with a 48db rolloff. And I am applying a house curve to match subs which gives me a 7db difference from the crossover point to 5hz. This way the actuators come on gradually and I can not tell that they are there. How I would describe how that act would be that they shake the chair like if I had the volume turned up another 15-20 db. (Yes I can get extreme tactile effect when I really push the subs when using ear protection.) So I am effectively getting an extra 15-20db of tactile effect without the SPL to go with it. Setup correctly I would wager anyone to know they were there if they were not told about them. OH and BTW, I have 4 actuators for one chair.
Actually , an install in Japan would just not work, I tried to see if it could some how, but being a custom install, it would not be worth the extra cash, just so I could get the extra SPL @ 1-2hz. I am already getting the SPL there anyway.
You are absolutely correct, which is another reason why I gave up on the Rotary sub, it won't bring much to the table for me. Where as the Crowsons do.

Congrats Dave! 

 

The pressurization in your room has to be unprecedented. Combine that with some dialed in transducers has got to be one heck of a ride that I'd like to experience!

 

Have you ever thought about building a suspended floor over concrete in your room? I would imagine that a suspended floor over concrete would take it to a whole new level...you might even be able to get away with it with a riser under your seating.

 

Definitely the right move over the rotary...I think your HT now is capable of rotary levels for all intensive purposes.

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