or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › Pioneer Elite SC-68, SC-77, SC-79 or Denon 4250CI?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Pioneer Elite SC-68, SC-77, SC-79 or Denon 4250CI? - Page 3

post #61 of 121
Thread Starter 
Ok, so I had some time and I watched that whole German Youtube video, with Google translate for caption (which was quite funny translating the captions), and here is what I got:

- All three, Onkyo, Pioneer, and Denon are absolutely excellent
- Pioneer by far is the most powerful to power multi-channels, specially 4 ohm speakers. This is mostly because of D3 Amp efficiency so it can deliver more power with the Power Supply
- Denon and Onkyo have less distortion in 2-channel, and can get into higher Wattage
- Denon had the cleanest sound output, specially without Pure Direct, and Pioneer and Onkyo both were just a tad behind
- In his listening sessions, he liked Denon, then Pioneer, and third Onkyo. I think he said that Onkyo had some timing issues on MJ Blu-ray?
- MCACC did the BEST job of room correction (wink, wink)!
- Onkyo had the best video processor
- Denon had the best Networking audio (I guess he meant internet radio)
- Pioneer had the extra USB input, and digital out missing from other two
- Pioneer consumes the least power (not surprising)
- Denon had the best remote
- Denon looked the best (I LOVE the Silver look on that)
- Pioneer had a different layout, BUT the least amount of cables running through it with direct connections
- Onkyo had the best Power Supply and much nicer layout and separation of components
- Overall Pioneer was rated as the best receiver for movies, having the best dynamic, Denon was rated most musical and overall winner

So, I actually think Pioneer would be best for most demanding speakers, while Denon and Onkyo are best for 2-channel demanding speakers, and having lower distortion (most likely not audible) in 2-ch modes.

Basically you cannot go wrong with ANY of those three. Great video, wish there were more English in-depth video comparisons like that. Made me appreciate all three brands. Also, debunked the supposed benefit of Audissey over MCACC.

post #62 of 121
^ Anyone have a problem with that slide? The max wattage with 2 channels (1 kHz, 8 ohm) is weird, so is the max wattage for 5 ch (1 kHz, 8 ohm) against all the AVR's.
post #63 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

The pioneer elite sc-71 gave me enough power at a rated 120 rms 8 ohms but itd keep shutting off. When I saw the denon 4520ci rated at 150 rms at 8 ohms and has AD EQ system I thought it be an upgrade. This is my first home audio setup thats why im new to everything and it gets frustrating because I dont want to buy the wrong things.

I notice you have a Monster Power Conditioner listed. How long have you had it? What outlet did you plug the receiver into?
The reason I ask, I had an old one (15 years I think), that I just replaced because some outlets started dying. I also have 88dB speakers (NHT) and a Yamaha 861 receiver that was bench tested at 49 watts x 5. With the old Monster conditioner, when I played movies near reference, the sound was really bad! It never shut down, but it didn't sound good either. I had to use my external 200W Parasound amp to drive my tower speakers full-range and let the Yamaha power the center and surrounds. This was a step backwards in bass, but much better sounding overall particularly at reference volume.
However, I was a bit disappointed with the lack of bass so when I hooked up my new Monster conditioner I decided to try Bi-amping my speakers again. HUGE improvement! I don't know why, but now everything sounds great with the Parasound driving my towers' built-in subs and the Yamaha powering the 5 channels even to reference levels!

Sorry for the long post, but I thought it might be worth checking on your system.I have no idea why my system sounds better now, but it does. If it is a new model, just make sure you have the receiver plugged into the Amp outlet as that one should be rated for 1000Watts.
post #64 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnc View Post

I notice you have a Monster Power Conditioner listed. How long have you had it? What outlet did you plug the receiver into?
The reason I ask, I had an old one (15 years I think), that I just replaced because some outlets started dying. I also have 88dB speakers (NHT) and a Yamaha 861 receiver that was bench tested at 49 watts x 5. With the old Monster conditioner, when I played movies near reference, the sound was really bad! It never shut down, but it didn't sound good either. I had to use my external 200W Parasound amp to drive my tower speakers full-range and let the Yamaha power the center and surrounds. This was a step backwards in bass, but much better sounding overall particularly at reference volume.
However, I was a bit disappointed with the lack of bass so when I hooked up my new Monster conditioner I decided to try Bi-amping my speakers again. HUGE improvement! I don't know why, but now everything sounds great with the Parasound driving my towers' built-in subs and the Yamaha powering the 5 channels even to reference levels!

Sorry for the long post, but I thought it might be worth checking on your system.I have no idea why my system sounds better now, but it does. If it is a new model, just make sure you have the receiver plugged into the Amp outlet as that one should be rated for 1000Watts.

Im not so fond of the Monster Power protectors, especially after I had one fail. But when I first hooked mine up (model 2500), I really thought that my receiver didnt play as loud as it did plugged into the wall socket. I couldnt really decide for sure but it just seemed like the MP was somehow holding it back a little, probably BS, but I wont ever own another one.
post #65 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

I've had a pioneer Sc-71 for 2 months now and overall it's performed we'll. I just returned it today for the Denon-4520CI. The reason for this is because I will be able to eq 2 subs individually while the pioneer can't. Also the audyssey eq system for the surrounds will be much better. When I played bluerays loud the safety on the pioneer would turn the receiver off, which got annoying. Supposedly this Denon should be a step up in some areas so I'm eager to see once I get it delivered Wednesday.


My old Sony 555ES receiver used to shut off if I pushed it too hard. I solved the problem with a 4" 120v fan from radio shack. I layed it on top, above the heat sink blowing up, problem solved. After that, it NEVER shut off again. Might be worth a try.
post #66 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

^ Anyone have a problem with that slide? The max wattage with 2 channels (1 kHz, 8 ohm) is weird, so is the max wattage for 5 ch (1 kHz, 8 ohm) against all the AVR's.

Since it was provided absent a link to its source, the opportunity to scrutinize the test conditions is sequestered.
post #67 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnc View Post

I notice you have a Monster Power Conditioner listed. How long have you had it? What outlet did you plug the receiver into?
The reason I ask, I had an old one (15 years I think), that I just replaced because some outlets started dying. I also have 88dB speakers (NHT) and a Yamaha 861 receiver that was bench tested at 49 watts x 5. With the old Monster conditioner, when I played movies near reference, the sound was really bad! It never shut down, but it didn't sound good either. I had to use my external 200W Parasound amp to drive my tower speakers full-range and let the Yamaha power the center and surrounds. This was a step backwards in bass, but much better sounding overall particularly at reference volume.
However, I was a bit disappointed with the lack of bass so when I hooked up my new Monster conditioner I decided to try Bi-amping my speakers again. HUGE improvement! I don't know why, but now everything sounds great with the Parasound driving my towers' built-in subs and the Yamaha powering the 5 channels even to reference levels!

Sorry for the long post, but I thought it might be worth checking on your system.I have no idea why my system sounds better now, but it does. If it is a new model, just make sure you have the receiver plugged into the Amp outlet as that one should be rated for 1000Watts.

Thanks so much for this observation and actually this sounds like something to look into. I'm looking at it, it's called a monster power HDP 1800 and I bought it 6 months ago. I've been plugging in whatever receiver I have to a section labeled "unswitched analog audio filter" then under that section I use the slot that says "receiver." Does this sound like the rite spot for plugging the receiver to?
post #68 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike47 View Post

Im not so fond of the Monster Power protectors, especially after I had one fail. But when I first hooked mine up (model 2500), I really thought that my receiver didnt play as loud as it did plugged into the wall socket. I couldnt really decide for sure but it just seemed like the MP was somehow holding it back a little, probably BS, but I wont ever own another one.

Yeah I have wondered about how this thing is actually working, I don't know much about all I know is that I have everything plugged to it eek.gif
post #69 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike47 View Post

My old Sony 555ES receiver used to shut off if I pushed it too hard. I solved the problem with a 4" 120v fan from radio shack. I layed it on top, above the heat sink blowing up, problem solved. After that, it NEVER shut off again. Might be worth a try.


That's a real good idea, when My next receiver comes in a few days ill try to put a fan for it, thanks! smile.gif
post #70 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

That's a real good idea, when My next receiver comes in a few days ill try to put a fan for it, thanks! smile.gif

Not sure how the 12v trigger on the receiver works, but if it sends 12v out continually when activated, then you could use a 12v fan out of most PCs. Then you could set the trigger to come on whenever you want it to. I think a 12v dc fan might run quieter that the big120v does.
post #71 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

Thanks so much for this observation and actually this sounds like something to look into. I'm looking at it, it's called a monster power HDP 1800 and I bought it 6 months ago. I've been plugging in whatever receiver I have to a section labeled "unswitched analog audio filter" then under that section I use the slot that says "receiver." Does this sound like the rite spot for plugging the receiver to?

On mine I am using the one labeled "Main Amp." Try that one, if yours is labeled the same. If that doesn't help, try plugging the receiver straight to the wall outlet.

Good luck!
post #72 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnc View Post

On mine I am using the one labeled "Main Amp." Try that one, if yours is labeled the same. If that doesn't help, try plugging the receiver straight to the wall outlet.

Good luck!

Thanks! These are all good pieces of advise to help me be more observant over all possibilities for potential improvements.
post #73 of 121
I've been thinking about what some here have brought to my attention, My weakness in my setup is my bowers and Wilkins speakers due to the low sensitivity I need to crank the volume to get anything out of them. If I made one last effort to exchange some gear again, would it be a good idea to exchange all my 5 speakers for a complete set of Klipsch RF7 II speakers? Here's an example of what I have and what I would have if I do it.

My b&w fronts are rated - 150 w rms max, 88db sensitivity

Klipsch fronts are - 1000 w rms max, 101db sensitivity

My b&w center is - 120 w rms max, 86db sensitivity

The klipsch center is - 800 w max, 99 db sensitivity




I'm trying to learn enough to make a possible correction while I may have time to do it, looking at the difference how much improvement would do this exchange make?
post #74 of 121
Those Klipsch will definitely play loud and i find the sound of the RF series a great bang for the buck or at least bring your favorite piece of music and give them a demo.
post #75 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

Those Klipsch will definitely play loud and i find the sound of the RF series a great bang for the buck or at least bring your favorite piece of music and give them a demo.

If I return my bower and Wilkins fronts and center plus my 2 rear surrounds ill get $4000 credit and I can pay the difference to get all 5 matching Klipsch RF series. I have all the boxes and packaging for everything, I'm going to see if the manager at best buy will do me this last favor. If not then I'm stuck with what I have
post #76 of 121
Curious did you get the Denon from him if so I bet he will work with you.
post #77 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

Curious did you get the Denon from him if so I bet he will work with you.

Part of my problem is that where I live the only place that sells electronics is 1 best buy and when I started buying everything had to be ordered so I don't have a way to listen to anything first and I'm a newbie to HT so that's why I've exchanged things so many times. So far I've spent around $25k in the store and they say I'm their 1# customer so they always do me favors and give me good prices, way lower than what best buy advertises. Another reason I like going their is because everything I buy I get an in store warranty which is so convent, any problems I bring whatever it is in and they exchange or let me upgrade. Basically this is where I stand,

80 in Sharp Aquos Quattron LED 3d TV
Denon 4520ci receiver
Denon DBT - 3313UDCI blue-ray player
Def Tech Trinity sub
PSA Triax sub
Xbox 360
Monster power conditioner

I have 1 last chance to turn in all 5 of my surround sound speakers to best match with what I'm staying with above. I need to order all 5 matching set speakers that will give me what I'm looking for for a budget of $6000. I'd like them to play best for blue-ray movies at a powerful yet clear quality level and this might be my chance to fix my past mistakes and get me where I'd like to be. I'm interested in what's been said here about speaker sensitivity so I'd like to get something that's well above the 90db range, preferably around 100 db and a matching set. What set of 5 speakers at a $6000 budget would you advise may be a good choice for me? I'm glad for all the help here, it's been frustrating dealing with buying the wrong things but I think correcting this last thing might really help me out.
smile.gif
post #78 of 121
Go listen to the Reference line of Klipsch they are probably going to be what you want they are available in several price ranges but you need to listen to them some like them some don't ,I find that if I had to replace my set up today they would be on my list as with new models on all lines they make subtle changes so you definitely need to listen to them but a 100wpc AVR coupled to them is more than enough to run you out of the room with dynamics to spare. That would be in the neighborhood of a 10db difference and if I remember my math that would be double your current volume with your current setup. if you got it run with 14AWG wire then your set unless you have 100ft runs.
post #79 of 121
Thread Starter 
You will lose some sound quality by exchanging the speakers, but would then definitely have a louder speaker. You can try, but why not just get Denon, see how it works, ensure your setup is actually not the issue, and then if not, just add NA external amp and be done with it.

I just checked and my B&W 805s are only 89dB too and I have absolutely no issue driving them with Pioneer Elite 72TXV from like 2006 rated 130*5.
post #80 of 121
Also keep in mind that some of them Klipsch speakers are BIG speakers. Make sure you have the room.
post #81 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

Go listen to the Reference line of Klipsch they are probably going to be what you want they are available in several price ranges but you need to listen to them some like them some don't ,I find that if I had to replace my set up today they would be on my list as with new models on all lines they make subtle changes so you definitely need to listen to them but a 100wpc AVR coupled to them is more than enough to run you out of the room with dynamics to spare. That would be in the neighborhood of a 10db difference and if I remember my math that would be double your current volume with your current setup. if you got it run with 14AWG wire then your set unless you have 100ft runs.

That's the problem, I live in a rural state and I have nowhere locally to listen to any speakers, everything I buy comes from random states. Since I just past 60 days I have to see tomorrow if they manager can let me turn them in for credit, if he can I have to act quick. Then I can take my time to see what speakers to go for while I wait for my receiver. I could get $4000 credit then this Friday I could go back with extra $ from my payday and make a new order of 5 speakers. I say Klipsch because I know best buy can get them, so I'd get the RF-7 II matching set, but if there's another brand within my budget then I could see if they could get those instead.
post #82 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexb76 View Post

You will lose some sound quality by exchanging the speakers, but would then definitely have a louder speaker. You can try, but why not just get Denon, see how it works, ensure your setup is actually not the issue, and then if not, just add NA external amp and be done with it.

I just checked and my B&W 805s are only 89dB too and I have absolutely no issue driving them with Pioneer Elite 72TXV from like 2006 rated 130*5.

The Bowers and Wilkins I have are the cm8 series, so the sound quality is very good and clear. The problem I'm having is that they are smaller in size and don't seem to put out a large sound stage like I want for movies and every receiver I buy I have to almost max out the volume to get it where I'd like, then that's been causing other problems. I'm thinking its because of the low speaker sensitivity, such as with the center being only 86db. I didn't know about all this when I bought them and I'm wondering if these Klipsch RF-7 II series set would get me a larger sound stage and higher volume with less effort from the receiver. If the RF-7 II series lacks in sound quality then maybe I could get bowers and Wilkins diamond series.
post #83 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike47 View Post

Also keep in mind that some of them Klipsch speakers are BIG speakers. Make sure you have the room.

The good thing is that my room is 30ft by 17ft so I do have plenty room to spare smile.gif
post #84 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

The good thing is that my room is 30ft by 17ft so I do have plenty room to spare smile.gif
Sound quality is subjective we each like what we like one person may like Focals another Dynaudio but that is not saying one is better than the other but a person may prefer one over the other and i just threw those 2 out their and the reason I said try and listen to them because buying any speaker brand without listening to them is a gamble sometimes we forget when we recommend things that just because we like it does not mean everyone will a perfect example headphones I like Sennhiser 580/600 my friend can not stand them and prefers Grado's of any model 80 and up and they are okay but I prefer the Senns.
post #85 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

Sound quality is subjective we each like what we like one person may like Focals another Dynaudio but that is not saying one is better than the other but a person may prefer one over the other and i just threw those 2 out their and the reason I said try and listen to them because buying any speaker brand without listening to them is a gamble sometimes we forget when we recommend things that just because we like it does not mean everyone will a perfect example headphones I like Sennhiser 580/600 my friend can not stand them and prefers Grado's of any model 80 and up and they are okay but I prefer the Senns.

There's nowhere even remotely close to me that will have any of these speakers to listen to eek.gif I'm stuck just reading reviews and seeking advice so I'm going to take my time and see what would be my next best choice, that is if I can even return what I have still. I almost wish I had went for the Bowers and Wilkins Diamond series, but that still may be an option biggrin.gif
post #86 of 121
I like the Klipsch Reference RF-7 II s, They have two 10s and 101db sens. I bet these things kick azz!
post #87 of 121
If you can't or don't want to exchange speakers, just get an Emotiva XPA-5 amp. You won't have to worry about power or speaker sensitivity anymore.wink.gif
post #88 of 121
I use a Klipsch RF 7 system in a large room and could not be happier. They are excellent for the big movie sound and very refined for music. My Pioneer Elite SC 35 is excellent for speaker/room integration. They are not bright as some people report. The key is a good avr and room correction system. For 5.1 the Elite avr's are great. I use an external amp for the center and front towers. This makes sure every thing is costing even at reference level.
post #89 of 121
Be away for 2 days and all kinds of stuff going on! Just because spkr has lo efficiency doesn't make it a lesser spkr. Some of the best audiophile spkrs are lower efficiency. Just means you have to use appropriate amp power. Magnepans are considered excellent higher end spkrs bt they do need more power to bring out their best as an example. This is exactly why answering "which one is best" is not easy to do. It depends....
post #90 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike47 View Post

I like the Klipsch Reference RF-7 II s, They have two 10s and 101db sens. I bet these things kick azz!

They seem like they would, not a bad price either biggrin.gif
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Receivers, Amps, and Processors
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › Pioneer Elite SC-68, SC-77, SC-79 or Denon 4250CI?