or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Blu-ray & HD DVD › Official AVS Blu-ray Disc Reviews › Star Trek Into Darkness 3D (Blu-ray) Official AVSForum Review
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Star Trek Into Darkness 3D (Blu-ray) Official AVSForum Review - Page 15

post #421 of 567
I can't wait to buy it now wink.gif
post #422 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Since I flip flopped on my opinion of the soundtrack in this movie I need to clear the air. I stick by first assessment and think that it was indeed reference, there was no shrill and no clipping while played through my setup. Maybe a little loud but that's why we have volume buttons and honestly I liked the fact that I didn't struggle with the dialogue like I do with some releases. IMO it looks like this is player or processing dependent.

Come on, there's no reason to be definitive yet - it's only Monday!
post #423 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Come on, there's no reason to be definitive yet - it's only Monday!



Lol! Tomorrow things switch to WWZ biggrin.gif
post #424 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Here's a down and dirty Voice Memo capture from my iPhone - listen for the hard clipping sounds in the middle - its much worse when listening for real

This is when the Vengeance hits the water....

STID clipping.m4a.zip 73k .zip file

Sorry I do not hear that type of distortion just the LOud-FIdelity qualities of the mix. It sounds as though your system is causing additional distortion due to the baked mix.
Have you turned down your playback level to ascertain whether that amount of distortion remains; if it reduces or is eliminated then it is likely the amp has run out of steam.

I find it disappointing that so many approve of this mix, at least there are some others in The Master List of Bass in Movies thread who also recognize the issues and have hard data to back it up.

As I have mentioned before I believe many are misconstruing the loudness of the track as being dynamic.

Best Regards
KvE

PS I will update this post with some information about the trade offs with these mixing choices and why more should actually be reconsidering referring to this mix as reference.
post #425 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya View Post

Sorry I do not hear that type of distortion just the LOud-FIdelity qualities of the mix. It sounds as though your system is causing additional distortion due to the baked mix.
Have you turned down your playback level to ascertain whether that amount of distortion remains; if it reduces or is eliminated then it is likely the amp has run out of steam.

I find it disappointing that so many approve of this mix, at least there are some others in The Master List of Bass in Movies thread who also recognize the issues and have hard data to back it up.

As I have mentioned before I believe many are misconstruing the loudness of the track as being dynamic.

Best Regards
KvE

PS I will update this post with some information about the trade offs with these mixing choices and why more should actually be reconsidering referring to this mix as reference.

Yes, it seems McIntosh processors (perhaps others) dirty the bed with this overly hot mix.

Regardless of the clipping I hear, I agree its hard to describe this as Tier 0..
post #426 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya View Post

Sorry I do not hear that type of distortion just the LOud-FIdelity qualities of the mix. It sounds as though your system is causing additional distortion due to the baked mix.
Have you turned down your playback level to ascertain whether that amount of distortion remains; if it reduces or is eliminated then it is likely the amp has run out of steam.

I find it disappointing that so many approve of this mix, at least there are some others in The Master List of Bass in Movies thread who also recognize the issues and have hard data to back it up.As I have mentioned before I believe many are misconstruing the loudness of the track as being dynamic.

Best Regards
KvE

PS I will update this post with some information about the trade offs with these mixing choices and why more should actually be reconsidering referring to this mix as reference.

You shouldn't take it personal smile.gif those in the bass thread are still debating as well! I take all things internet with a grain of salt until I hear for myself, and there are times mixes with no clipping and that are clearly reference that get trashed in the bass thread wink.gif
post #427 of 567
Since the audio in STID annoyed me to no end Im going to repost my comments from the BASS thread.

"The LCR mix has clipping that makes that sound track the worst ive heard. Ever. I have not heard a single sound track that is worse than STID. Ever.
The clipping makes it incredibly fatiguing and made me want to dive for the remote control.

Worst. Mix. Ever.

Didnt finish the movie, and probably never will. And the movie itself and the PQ was really good!

The Bluray should be recalled and replaced with a version that isnt obviously defective.

How the hell are people listening to this anywhere close to reference....
"
post #428 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steveo1234 View Post

Since the audio in STID annoyed me to no end Im going to repost my comments from the BASS thread.

"The LCR mix has clipping that makes that sound track the worst ive heard. Ever. I have not heard a single sound track that is worse than STID. Ever.
The clipping makes it incredibly fatiguing and made me want to dive for the remote control.

Worst. Mix. Ever.

Didnt finish the movie, and probably never will. And the movie itself and the PQ was really good!

The Bluray should be recalled and replaced with a version that isnt obviously defective.

How the hell are people listening to this anywhere close to reference....
"



Some of us are NOT experiencing what you and others have. I recommend you contact Paramount and their email is about 10 or 15 posts above this one, and they will get back to you. Whatever the reason is, it MAY be that some AVR's or pre's and this disc are a mismatch. It's the only thing that makes any sense to me and has nothing to do with one being better than another, I'm thinking it's a rare mismatch and maybe it will happen to me on a certain disc and others also. My comments are my own so it's IMO, YMMV and so on biggrin.gif
I've stated my opinion and for me it's time to move on, no sense in beating a dead horse here.
Edited by comfynumb - 9/17/13 at 5:20am
post #429 of 567
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steveo1234 View Post

Since the audio in STID annoyed me to no end Im going to repost my comments from the BASS thread.

"The LCR mix has clipping that makes that sound track the worst ive heard. Ever. I have not heard a single sound track that is worse than STID. Ever.
The clipping makes it incredibly fatiguing and made me want to dive for the remote control.

Worst. Mix. Ever.

Didnt finish the movie, and probably never will. And the movie itself and the PQ was really good!

The Bluray should be recalled and replaced with a version that isnt obviously defective.

How the hell are people listening to this anywhere close to reference....
"

Greetings,

This will be the last post that I will allow to be reposted from another forum on this topic. I have allowed the discussion to carry on well beyond the scope of the review thread because I feel that there is a legitimate issue at play here regarding the differing experiences that listeners are having with this track. Having said that I do not want debates and constant back and forth banter that can sometimes accompany the "I'm right and you're wrong" mindsets of those wanting to engage in them.

Any posts of that nature will be deleted without explanation.

Regards,
post #430 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Potts View Post

Greetings,

This will be the last post that I will allow to be reposted from another forum on this topic. I have allowed the discussion to carry on well beyond the scope of the review thread because I feel that there is a legitimate issue at play here regarding the differing experiences that listeners are having with this track. Having said that I do not want debates and constant back and forth banter that can sometimes accompany the "I'm right and you're wrong" mindsets of those wanting to engage in them.

Any posts of that nature will be deleted without explanation.

Regards,

I agree Ralph - what I would like is to take something useful out of this discourse, since I can't remember a release that has had such a bi-polar disorder.

I'm in contact with Paramount as well as McIntosh (manufacturer of my processor) to try and see what is going on. Perhaps if we can coalesce some processor data, it might show a connection to decoder chips being used.

I'll start:

Reference: No
Processor: McIntosh MX-151
Processing: TrueHD 7.1 straight decode, bitstream in
Reason: hard clipping, harsh and fatiguing sound; overly loud

Keep it brief and objective - whatever I can collect here, I will send to Paramount to see if it helps understand this issue.

If you prefer not in this thread, of course delete this Ralph.
Edited by thrang - 9/17/13 at 7:01am
post #431 of 567
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

I agree Ralph - what I would like is to take something useful out of this discourse, since I can't remember a release that has had such a bi-polar disorder.

I'm in contact with Paramount as well as McIntosh (manufacturer of my processor) to try and see what is going on. Perhaps if we can coalesce some processor data, it might show a connection to decoder chips being used.

I'll start:

Reference: No
Processor: McIntosh MX-151
Reason: hard clipping, harsh and fatiguing sound; overly loud

Keep it brief and objective - whatever I can collect here, I will send to Paramount to see if it helps understand this issue.

If you prefer not in this thread, of course delete this Ralph.

Greetings,

I see no problem with this Greg although I am not sure how many will find it here. Here is my info:

Reference: Yes
Processor: Marantz AV8801 (setup for 9.2 channels)
Processing: Audyssey XT32 - DTS-Neo:X (tried straight decoding of the 7.1 channel encode with same results)
Reason: Dynamically supported sound, rich bass response, crystal clarity derived from a notably aggressive sound mix

Regards,
post #432 of 567
Since we got the go ahead:

Reference: yes

Oppo 93 set to bitstream, HDMI to:

Marantz AV8801

Processing: Audyssey XT32-TrueHD

I'm set up in 5.1

Same results as Ralph, agressive but very clear, so no issues for me.
Edited by comfynumb - 9/17/13 at 1:23pm
post #433 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Potts View Post

Greetings,

I see no problem with this Greg although I am not sure how many will find it here. Here is my info:

Reference: Yes
Processor: Marantz AV8801 (setup for 9.2 channels)
Processing: Audyssey XT32 - DTS-Neo:X (tried straight decoding of the 7.1 channel encode with same results)
Reason: Dynamically supported sound, rich bass response, crystal clarity derived from a notably aggressive sound mix

Regards,

Good point to add the processing mode, I updated mine.

BTW, will be borrowing an 8801 from my dealer tomorrow, and will do some serious a/b testing, along with fellow member addino...
post #434 of 567
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Good point to add the processing mode, I updated mine.

BTW, will be borrowing an 8801 from my dealer tomorrow, and will do some serious a/b testing, along with fellow member addino...

Greetings,

Sounds good. Please be sure to follow up with your findings...


Regards,
post #435 of 567
Reference: Yes

Processing chain: Oppo BDP-93 (7.1 TrueHD), JBL Synthesis AV-2 (analog pass through), JBL Synthesis SDEC4000 (DACS calibrated into three bi-amped mains, four surrounds, and four 18" subs)

Reason: Big, spacious, clean sound; active, precise surround; body-shaking bass, including plenty of sub 30Hz content; aggressive John Harrison (or Khan, if you like) "intensity mix"; clear dialog; eminently listenable.
post #436 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by filecat13 View Post

Reference: Yes

Processing chain: Oppo BDP-93 (7.1 TrueHD), JBL Synthesis AV-2 (analog pass through), JBL Synthesis SDEC4000 (DACS calibrated into three bi-amped mains, four surrounds, and four 18" subs)

Reason: Big, spacious, clean sound; active, precise surround; body-shaking bass, including plenty of sub 30Hz content; aggressive John Harrison (or Khan, if you like) "intensity mix"; clear dialog; eminently listenable.

Thanks

Not familiar with that processor, but assuming you cannot bitstream TrueHD to it and decode there?
post #437 of 567
Reference : yes

Processor : Marantz 8801

Source: Oppo 105 set to Bitstream

Mode of Processing : Dolby True HD With Audyssey XT32 engaged

Number of speakers : 5.1

Sound: Loud, Dynamic but remained clear, very Aggressive! I (also had to bump up my sub to match the levels of the other speakers)
post #438 of 567
Reference: No

Processing: Nothing additional. Oppo 93 bitstreamed to Onkyo 885 7.1

Reason: While I do not hear what Thrang is hearing in the audio clip he linked, this track was just not worthy of a reference grade IMO. The audio in general is just so LOUD and cranked to 11 that it looses it's refinement/composure vs the first film (which I watched right before) which WAS a reference track IMO. Trek 2 feels less dynamic and more compressed due to the levels being cranked so high, and we saw something similar going between TDK and TDKR with again the former being the clearly superior track from a technical perspective which transferred to the subjective one as well for me. While bass was certainly LOUD in the new film and hit in all the right spots, that missing extension which was noticeable vs the first track after watching them back to back was missed and brought the general low end experience down to some degree in comparison. I certainly did not hate it though and in general still found it a very entertaining HT audio ride, but reference it is not which is all to obvious to my ears after watching the first film right before part 2.
post #439 of 567
Reference: No
Processor: Onkyo TX-SR805
Source: Panasonic BD-65 & PS3. Bitstream and PCM.
Speaker Configuration: 5.1
Processing: Audyssey XT-32 MultiEQ XT also used Pure Direct.

Reason: Dynamics are limited due to excessive compression and limiting resulting in a loud flat and fatiguing mix with adequate but limited bass.
Due to hot mastering can cause additional distortion, separate from what is baked into the mix, with certain systems.

In comparison to the truly reference ST09 film mix with excellent dynamics and amazing clean deep bass, STID mix is an adequate but disappointing experience.

Peak Values are -0.10 dB from 0dBFS. This type of audio engineering, unnecessarily, increases the likelihood of amp clipping, for all systems but more so and more quickly with certain systems.

Dynamic Range: LR = 13dB, C= 10dB, S= 15dB, SLR= 18dB, RSLR=25dB

To learn more about the Loudness War and why it is unnecessary and actually hinders and destroys truly impactful audio experiences, please at least check out the following site.
http://dynamicrangeday.co.uk/about/

Best Regards
KvE
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
foobar2000 1.1.11 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1

Statistics for: ?-STID
Number of samples: 380446080
Duration: 2:12:06

Channel 1 Channel 2 Channel 3 Channel 4 Channel 5 Channel 6 Channel 7 Channel 8

Peak Value: -0.10 dB --- -0.10 dB --- -0.10 dB --- -0.10 dB --- -0.10 dB --- -0.10 dB --- -0.10 dB --- -0.10 dB
Avg RMS: -19.69 dB --- -19.31 dB --- -16.07 dB --- -22.60 dB --- -32.84 dB --- -32.62 dB --- -24.63 dB --- -24.26 dB
DR channel: 13.19 dB --- 12.84 dB --- 9.89 dB --- 15.57 dB --- 24.70 dB --- 25.59 dB --- 18.13 dB --- 17.76 dB

Official DR Value: DR17

Samplerate: 48000 Hz
Channels: 8
Bits per sample: 24
Bitrate: 4212 kbps


STID3DdBWavform


STID3DSpectogram


STID3DWavform

Edited by KMFDMvsEnya - 9/18/13 at 12:10pm
post #440 of 567
KMFDMvsEnya; Thank you so much for that post. Comfirms what I heard and correlates with it 100%.
post #441 of 567
Reference: No
Processor: Onkyo 708
Processing: TrueHD 7.1 with Thx cinema processing
Source: HTPC running LAVfilter and madVR through MPC-HC
Speaker Configuration: 7.1
Reason: Harsh and fatiguing sound. Big crash fried my tweeter fuses at -8 which is quite low to me. Usually watch movies at -2 to -7 from ref without any problems whatsoever.
post #442 of 567
Reference: No
Processor: Anthem MRX 500
Source: OPPO BDP 95
Processing: ARC Processing Bitstream
Speaker Configuration: Klipsch RF Series 5.1 SVS Sub
Reason: Although I THOROUGHLY enjoyed the movie (and will probably buy) in my opinion there are other movie soundtracks that present a much more enveloping and dynamic experience to my ears. I am by no means as experienced as the majority on AVS,however I have over the last 15 or so years accumulated many movies that I still watch as reference to compare performance of the components of my system now to the equipment I have used over that time. One that immediately comes to mind is the THX DTS 5.1 Track of Titan A.E...and it's a DVD not a Blu-Ray with DTS MA or DOLBY TruHD. Reference to me is LOTR or maybe Flight of the Phoenix, Dark Knight Returns and the aforementioned Titan A.E. Again, great experience however.
post #443 of 567
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya View Post

Reference: No
Processor: Onkyo TX-SR805
Source: Panasonic BD-65 & PS3. Bitstream and PCM.
Speaker Configuration: 5.1
Processing: Audyssey XT-32 also used Pure Direct.

Reason: Dynamics are limited due to excessive compression and limiting resulting in a loud flat and fatiguing mix with adequate but limited bass.
Due to hot mastering can cause additional distortion, separate from what is baked into the mix, with certain systems.

In comparison to the truly reference ST09 film mix with excellent dynamics and amazing clean deep bass, STID mix is an adequate but disappointing experience.

Greetings,

KvE, A quick question, you list the Onkyo TX-SR805 as your receiver with Audyssey XT-32 processing. Audyssey XT-32 isn't available on that model which was initially released back in 2007 or so. I assume you mean Audyssey MultEQ XT?

Regards,
post #444 of 567
Thanks for the correction. Yes I meant MultiEQ XT.

Best Regards
KvE
post #445 of 567
First off, thanks again Ralph, always enjoy your reviews and your keeping the thread reasonably in line!

Whew....just got thru updating myself on this thread; I had read part of it here and there while on the road plus a bit in the master list of bass thread. Got home Monday and saw that Netflix was delivering mine (so 2d of course) on Tuesday so I could see/hear for myself and try a few things. Now that I watched twice wanted to comment.

Loved the movie overall! As to the reincarnation of Khan Noonien Singh in the form of gangly pale Benedict Cumberbatch.....at first seemed a bit odd, but as JJ Abrams said in the extras, he does do a damn good job. I don't mind them playing with the old scripts a bit, after all it is a new timeline. Reaching back to the Spock from another timeline to get Leonard Nimoy on screen a bit was okay by me. Still the original series is carried forward better than the later tv/movies did with the bald guy and the butch gal and the other story lines IMHO. Kirk and crew rules!

Picture quality was awesome flares and all (I really don't mind them and didn't really notice them as much as ST09 or Super8). Sound quality I rank very high but won't vote yet til I play with it some more.

I started at -10, as I find that a generally good starting point depending on the movie, and it seemed about right so left it there. First viewing Tuesday via a PS3 set to LPCM as is my usual setting, using Audyssey XT, but did up the sub a couple db based on what I'd read. Didn't find it all that harsh. Second viewing tonight (well, Wednesday night) but changed to bitstream and let my avr decode but also at -10. I think it was just a bit louder and a tad harsh this way. I did pull out my Omnimic towards the end tonight and was hitting 113-115 peaks in any case. Will play around some more both above and below -10 later. Also, have been sick, worse Tuesday than today so that might be an influence as was more nyquil in the system Tuesday. Neither run would I call fatiguing altho I think my neighbors may know I'm home again smile.gif.

Did expect a bit more low end, as it would seem to fit better in some scenes. I did not recently put ST09 in but will for a refresher from that perspective. I do think some of us get carried away with LFE expectations, especially when we can reproduce them (and I don't have the subwoofage some do here but I can get down fairly low teens without too much issue, not at reference, though). I would have liked more no doubt. Overall it still worked well.

I know sometimes there's too much LFE in some films....like I think someone said its sometimes inverse to the quality of the film and I think that can be the case, but I'm fairly new to the bass addiction thing and don't keep notes or anything smile.gif. Rewatched Dredd Monday night...that might be a candidate. I do like feeling the bass, though so would like the studios to leave us a choice if possible. Loved that link to the Film Tech forums and have more to read there but makes sense that the suits do these things, haven't met too many suits that don't leave things worse after they're done doing their jobs compared to those that actually build or create things.

I'll play some more then vote in the recent manner soon...making sure my head is cleared out and my impressions remain the same...

Ralph, maybe I missed it but curious at what level you usually listen at for your reviews? I like my movies fairly loud so KvE not sure how that -23 or -24 works but will give that a try too.
post #446 of 567
Fellow AVS member addino and I borrowed an 8801 yesterday, did an audyssey calibration, and re-listened to segments of STID.

The snapping/popping sound during the water crash sequence is not present when bitstreaming, so that's definitely something wrong with the McIntosh processor. We did continue to feel the soundtrack was otherwise the same - hot, compressed, and fatiguing, even more so than on the McIntosh. Even during the crash sequence, though there's no hard clipping, the distortion of the sound effects is easily discernible, as it is in many other sequences.

IMHO, I cannot for the life of me see how this is believed to be reference or even close to it.
post #447 of 567
The post-production sound services for the film were done by Skywalker Sound and the re-recording mixer was Andy Nelson who won an Oscar for Best Sound for Saving Private Ryan and another for Best Achievement in Sound Mixing for Les Miserables in 2012.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1408101/companycredits?ref_=ttspec_sa_5

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0625144/
post #448 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbfleming View Post

The post-production sound services for the film were done by Skywalker Sound and the re-recording mixer was Andy Nelson who won an Oscar for Best Sound for Saving Private Ryan and another for Best Achievement in Sound Mixing for Les Miserables in 2012.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1408101/companycredits?ref_=ttspec_sa_5

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0625144/

The pedigree is great, not this offspring.
post #449 of 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Fellow AVS member addino and I borrowed an 8801 yesterday, did an audyssey calibration, and re-listened to segments of STID.

The snapping/popping sound during the water crash sequence is not present when bitstreaming, so that's definitely something wrong with the McIntosh processor. We did continue to feel the soundtrack was otherwise the same - hot, compressed, and fatiguing, even more so than on the McIntosh. Even during the crash sequence, though there's no hard clipping, the distortion of the sound effects is easily discernible, as it is in many other sequences.

IMHO, I cannot for the life of me see how this is believed to be reference or even close to it.



Thrang thanks for the update. For the life of me I can't see where your McIntosh is at fault other than a mismatch with the soundtrack. What are your thoughts in that possibility? Also have you had problems with other discs?
I just watched this again last night and like you said there is no odd sounds when the Vengeance crashed on my 8801.
post #450 of 567
FYI my system :
Anthem D2V3D with Oppo 95 - bitstream. Not reference.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
AVS › AVS Forum › Blu-ray & HD DVD › Official AVS Blu-ray Disc Reviews › Star Trek Into Darkness 3D (Blu-ray) Official AVSForum Review