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Pro Audio Technology Announces Massive LFC-24sm Subwoofer - Page 2

post #31 of 79
Looks pretty awesome to me and would love two of these behind my screen. Is there cheaper options with similar performance? Yes. I also would think the -3db point would be lower but I bet it's an incredible performer. When Paul Hale designs a new cinema speaker I pay attention. This is the guy who designed speakers for QSC for commecial cinemas. Some of the best cinema designs available.
post #32 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

That strikes me as exaggeration, based on my experiences with DIY speakers. SEOS-based builds do sound decent (I've heard several) and high-efficiency speakers are nice for home theater. To claim anything more is disingenuous, there are many great speakers out there that do not cost that much at all.

From the OP,. the sub is for HT...so somehow shift the argument away from that is a bit........disingenuous. Are their better "high fidelity speakers" at a similar price. Absolutely. Would they fit well in a HT..probably depends on room size. But the person I was replying to waved a very very broad brush against DIY.
post #33 of 79
Actually I wave a very very NARROW brush towards DIY because true DIY will cost a lot of time and experimentation. Kitted DIY, exchanging plans with fellow DIY-ers are NOT DIY. Why? DIY stands for Do It Yourself. Once you buy a kit, working together with other people etc, it's no longer DIY, more like assemble it yourself.

As I previously mentioned, if I consider DIY kit as a true DIY then I'm a DIY-er. I remember the time when I have to experiment with crossovers, etch my own PCB, make my own calculations and plans...THAT's DIY. tongue.gif
post #34 of 79
Certainly need some 2000 lb speakers to go with that!
post #35 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by dddaleda View Post

Certainly need some 2000 lb speakers to go with that!
A HT place near me has this setup in a jungle themed room. Dual 18s under the center...
post #36 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Actually I wave a very very NARROW brush towards DIY because true DIY will cost a lot of time and experimentation. Kitted DIY, exchanging plans with fellow DIY-ers are NOT DIY. Why? DIY stands for Do It Yourself. Once you buy a kit, working together with other people etc, it's no longer DIY, more like assemble it yourself.

As I previously mentioned, if I consider DIY kit as a true DIY then I'm a DIY-er. I remember the time when I have to experiment with crossovers, etch my own PCB, make my own calculations and plans...THAT's DIY. tongue.gif


What does it matter how you get to the end result?

If I build my own subs/speakers from scratch and never ask any advice from anyone else vs. using an already proven design that someone else came up - in the end all that matters is how the product performs in my room compared to the amount of money spent IMO.

DIY, AIY, whatever - it's all about getting the best results for the lowest amount of money spent for some people. Others want a turn-key solution and that's great too, to each his own.
post #37 of 79
I agree, it doesn't matter how you get the end result. And I'm NOT against DIY, just don't say that DIY is cheaper than a finished product as time spent to properly do a DIY is not actually cheap if you value your time.

And also don't say it's DIY when it's actually just assembling a kit and/or using pre-measured / pre-tested schematics and diagrams be it purchased or exchanged as that is an insult to true DIY-ers.
post #38 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

I agree, it doesn't matter how you get the end result. And I'm NOT against DIY, just don't say that DIY is cheaper than a finished product as time spent to properly do a DIY is not actually cheap if you value your time.

And also don't say it's DIY when it's actually just assembling a kit and/or using pre-measured / pre-tested schematics and diagrams be it purchased or exchanged as that is an insult to true DIY-ers.

Gotcha. The DIY guys I know on the DIY speakers/subs section of the forum don't take offense, at least none that I have seen - but I'm sure you're right that some people do.

I'll be interested to see how this sub compares to the top of the line ID subs like the Seaton Submersive or the various JTR's subs. Given it's frequency response I'd say it's best comparison competition is the JTR Orbit Shifter. Tough competition is an understatement.
post #39 of 79
Nice big sub, break out the pipe organ recordings and bolt your furniture down. biggrin.gif
post #40 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post

A HT place near me has this setup in a jungle themed room. Dual 18s under the center...

It makes me sad to see that speaker set up put in such a compromising room design. Who blocks wilson audio speakers with... plants? ^_^;
post #41 of 79
People need to stop focusing on the -3db freq. The sub has built in DSP so my hunch is you should be able to bring the 3db point down considerably with proper tuning. My guess is the 3db point is high because the sub cranks out excessively in the mid bass, which can be tuned down.

Without a freq chart, you can't tell squat.
post #42 of 79
Well you certainly can compare its looks to the Wilson speakers pictured above smile.gif
post #43 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Actually I wave a very very NARROW brush towards DIY because true DIY will cost a lot of time and experimentation. Kitted DIY, exchanging plans with fellow DIY-ers are NOT DIY. Why? DIY stands for Do It Yourself. Once you buy a kit, working together with other people etc, it's no longer DIY, more like assemble it yourself.

As I previously mentioned, if I consider DIY kit as a true DIY then I'm a DIY-er. I remember the time when I have to experiment with crossovers, etch my own PCB, make my own calculations and plans...THAT's DIY. tongue.gif

I consider myself a "DIYer" even though I have yet to build anything other than some kit preamps.

I say this because I keep reading and learning the science behind speaker design before I attempt one on my own.

That said, I fully agree with what you have said in this and previous posts.

I am currently looking at a JTR/Seaton Triple 8/8c Catalyst clone and the cost in drivers alone that I am looking at will be approximately $700 per speaker....a little more than half of what just buying the speaker would cost....and that does not include the cost of crossover/materials to build the speaker....So I will probably cut it back to a "Double 8" But we will see at this point. I may also go to some lesser drivers.

In the end I expect it to actually cost more because it may take me several tries before I get it right....

So why do it? Because I have this extreme desire to learn more about sound reproduction. That is it....

No in regards to this behemoth of a sub....I think the design is very impressive. Would I buy it?-no

However, that is because I have no dedicated room to put it in and it is much more economical for me to build an Infinite baffle or have multiple sealed subs. Sure I wont get to 129db but I think my wife would be yelling at me before I got to 100db....
post #44 of 79
If you put a cost/value on your time when it comes to DIY, do you consider those same numbers when reading a book? Watching a movie? Working out? Going bowling? Cooking dinner? A hobby is a hobby, and you shouldn't consider it time wasted or money lost.
post #45 of 79
Not too many microphones go down that low.
You'd need to feed this baby in to a preamp, and use IT as the mike.
(Space Shuttle launch video, anyone? smile.gif )
post #46 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by its phillip View Post

If you put a cost/value on your time when it comes to DIY, do you consider those same numbers when reading a book? Watching a movie? Working out? Going bowling? Cooking dinner? A hobby is a hobby, and you shouldn't consider it time wasted or money lost.

if that the case then DIY-ers can't claim that they can do it "cheaper" than a turnkey solution. biggrin.gif
post #47 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

if that the case then DIY-ers can't claim that they can do it "cheaper" than a turnkey solution. biggrin.gif

I know for the most part your just joking but sure they can just like its "cheaper" to do your own oil change or "cheaper" to make your own dinner than go out to eat.
post #48 of 79
Of course there is a value on your time. It's called opportunity cost.

For instance, I could spend 200 hours designing, building, testing, rebuilding, retesting a speaker to get it just right. While Joe goes out and builds speakers for whatever he decides is worth his money. He then can spend that 150 hours( I deducted 50 hours for the shopping and demo of speakers) for other things he finds more important in life.

So it may not cost money but it does cost time and as the saying goes "time is money".

that 150 additional hours that I spend building speakers is time that I could be doing other things like watching movies, listening to music, going out to dinner with my family and friends...it's what is more important to you.
post #49 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by its phillip View Post

If you put a cost/value on your time when it comes to DIY, do you consider those same numbers when reading a book? Watching a movie? Working out? Going bowling? Cooking dinner? A hobby is a hobby, and you shouldn't consider it time wasted or money lost.

Epic response...
post #50 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by its phillip View Post

If you put a cost/value on your time when it comes to DIY, do you consider those same numbers when reading a book? Watching a movie? Working out? Going bowling? Cooking dinner? A hobby is a hobby, and you shouldn't consider it time wasted or money lost.

Then for "true" DIY speaker/sub building, your hobby had better be woodworking or else it's gonna suck time and money and you'll probably hurt yourself. Kits will work just fine if the goal is to learn how components work together in a speaker system.

On the flip side, if listening to music or watching movies is the hobby—as opposed to woodworking or soldering—then the same rule applies. It's a hobby, so time and money is not "wasted," rather it's spent on the part of the experience the hobbyist is most interested in. That includes buying "commercial" speakers and subs instead of turning one's garage into a woodshop.
Edited by imagic - 9/4/13 at 5:08pm
post #51 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

And also don't say it's DIY when it's actually just assembling a kit and/or using pre-measured / pre-tested schematics and diagrams be it purchased or exchanged as that is an insult to true DIY-ers.

"It" means different things to different people, including "assemble".
post #52 of 79
The 21" subwoofers I've seen on Parts Express go for the $800's, so this 24" beast $1.2k or so.
Amp+EQ $600
Wood & port material $200
Say $2k in parts, if rule of thumb is 1/3 parts and 2/3 labor, then $6k as quick swag??
However that labor may be high, considering the look is simple so 1/2 + 1/2 still $4k swag.

If in-house 24" driver, then you have to ammortize the tooling into pc cost......
post #53 of 79
Plus don't forget to add amortization of R&D and marketing cost.
post #54 of 79
yea - I was manager for accessory engineering for auto OE, that's what people forget about these small shop high end products.
Fixed cost + variable costs, etc. Capital equipment, shop floor space, sub suppliers, R&D, Manuf, QA, logistics & supply chain, etc, it does all add up.
Like I said a quick swag, done while I typed and ate a late dinner, trying to set peoples expectations of price point.
post #55 of 79
I've met with the individuals that conceive, design, and manage the various offerings thru their product line. In the above responses, I can appreciate the various perspectives each here bring, and their respective take on this product. ProAudioTech certainly doesn't limit their prospective market, however a large amount of their business is geared toward turn-key, top-to-bottom high performance installs.

I'd say this sub fits in nicely in with what they are doing, ie., no nonsense, DSP contoured, high swept area, low distortion, robust build quality. Kind of one of the big pro firms (JBL, EAW) except with more attention to cabinet contributions, no allegiance to any one mfr, so they're free to pick and choose what drivers/electronics go where. The last I know, the subs utilize Powersoft amplification, ...there is no better. They're one of the first to implement the coaxial BMS compression driver. Back in his two channel high end days, Hales was one of the early proponents recognizing how a cabinet can benefit from absolute inert characteristics. He brought that to this venture, merging zero contribution cabs with high output/low distortion designs.

Anyway, in talking with them in person, they shared much about their clientele ... movie studio execs, directors, Hollywood stars, screening rooms/HTs, requiring concert like SPL in a turn key finished product. Every recent CEDIA I've attended I've spent time experiencing their offerings, and visiting with the staff. They do offer relatively affordable items. Two years ago at CEDIA, for effect ... they demoed their least expensive two ways and subs in their big demo room. One could do a lot worse for the money. Flush mount dual 6" two ways for LCRs, in a sizable multi row HT. It was quite impressive.

I like what they're doing. I can't afford any of it, but I can appreciate what they offer.
post #56 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

I've met with the individuals that conceive, design, and manage the various offerings thru their product line. In the above responses, I can appreciate the various perspectives each here bring, and their respective take on this product. ProAudioTech certainly doesn't limit their prospective market, however a large amount of their business is geared toward turn-key, top-to-bottom high performance installs.

I'd say this sub fits in nicely in with what they are doing, ie., no nonsense, DSP contoured, high swept area, low distortion, robust build quality. Kind of one of the big pro firms (JBL, EAW) except with more attention to cabinet contributions, no allegiance to any one mfr, so they're free to pick and choose what drivers/electronics go where. The last I know, the subs utilize Powersoft amplification, ...there is no better. They're one of the first to implement the coaxial BMS compression driver. Back in his two channel high end days, Hales was one of the early proponents recognizing how a cabinet can benefit from absolute inert characteristics. He brought that to this venture, merging zero contribution cabs with high output/low distortion designs.

Anyway, in talking with them in person, they shared much about their clientele ... movie studio execs, directors, Hollywood stars, screening rooms/HTs, requiring concert like SPL in a turn key finished product. Every recent CEDIA I've attended I've spent time experiencing their offerings, and visiting with the staff. They do offer relatively affordable items. Two years ago at CEDIA, for effect ... they demoed their least expensive two ways and subs in their big demo room. One could do a lot worse for the money. Flush mount dual 6" two ways for LCRs, in a sizable multi row HT. It was quite impressive.

I like what they're doing. I can't afford any of it, but I can appreciate what they offer.

I don't think many (any?) of us are doubting that the sub is capable, top quality, etc. It just seems odd that such a high end, no holdouts product like this wouldn't include published measurements.
post #57 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathanc View Post

I don't think many (any?) of us are doubting that the sub is capable, top quality, etc. It just seems odd that such a high end, no holdouts product like this wouldn't include published measurements.

I understand, and I agree, I'd like to see more details too.
I wasn't very clear, my intentions were to suggest the target market likely isn't mixing mfrs/product lines. So the biggest, baddest sub thru the line is the one they'll get. Just add more to taste.

I'm not sure about this year, however they typically exhibit in a dedicated Sound-Room each of the last few years for the annual CEDIA here in the US.
post #58 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

if that the case then DIY-ers can't claim that they can do it "cheaper" than a turnkey solution.
This system Is DIY. The per cab build cost is less than $600 each. Those who have heard it say it's not only the loudest system they've ever heard, it's also the best. Of course, you can't tell that from a crappy cell phone recording. But who's really listening, with the cast to look at?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LyOfK-Xng4

A system using the same DR280 mains and Tuba 60 subs is in the process of being installed in a new club in Boston. A quote from the club owner, who also built the cabs:
Well my first rig is completed for dance floor #1 and even though the public hasn't been able to experience it yet some pretty picky people have.. Myself and a few other local club owners and Dj's have and we all are unanimous.. This is by far the new KING of sound systems in New England for sure! 8 T60's and 6 DR280's is down right insane! It can do everything and it can do it effortlessly..

To paraphrase an old adage, those who can, build. Those who can't, buy.
post #59 of 79
Bill, the SPL from your DR280's seems to be crippling that one person in the middle of the stage. Or is he suffering from some other ailment.

Either way. Looks painful.
post #60 of 79
Have to disagree with the definition of DIY posted here by some. If their definition is used for speaker building it would mean: one would need mine the ore, smelt the metal and form the metal for the frames. Same or similar for the wire and cones. Go to the forest, cut the trees for the cabinet, etc........... Now that would be a true DIY speaker.

I certainly am a DIY: designed my own speakers (with the aid of Harris Tech BassBox), built some of the cabinets. Have designed and constructed many electronic devices. I did use prefabricated ICs, diodes, resistors, etc. smile.gif Used aids like Visual CADD, Electronic Workbench, laser printers, etc. rolleyes.gif
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