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Trade Klipsch Reference RF-7II.... for B&W CM10 is a good decision? - Page 6

post #151 of 329
I have to agree after looking at your avr. You probably don't need a power amp. That thing is a monster eek.gif
post #152 of 329
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

I have to agree after looking at your avr. You probably don't need a power amp. That thing is a monster eek.gif

Yes it is, actually i don't think there is any AVR that can be compared in performance. The fact i wanted to add another Amp was just for power, but may that's stupid of me.
post #153 of 329
Thread Starter 
What do you guys have to say about this machine? Compare to ATI AT3000 and Parasound...

http://www.earthquakesound.eu/home-audio/amplifiers/cinenova-grande.aspx
post #154 of 329
Earthquake makes good amps.
post #155 of 329
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Earthquake makes good amps.

From what i've read, they look like good.

I don't know how do they compare to other name brands, and i don't want to seem stupid by comparing the sound of these or ATI or Parasound for Home Theater with big name brands as Krell for example.

I just don't want to think that Krell sells alot more expensive because of their name.
post #156 of 329
It's true. You are paying for the Krell name. same with McIntosh, Parasound, Classe, all of them. Power is power, and as long as it is put together with quality components then it will do what you want it to do.

If I were you, I would see how everything performs without the amp first, then, if you think you need more power after that, then you can get an amp.

I think you're being a little too aggressive. With the huge amount of power your Susano puts out, I'm quite sure you'll find it to be more than adequate. So if you want to save a big chunk of money, listen without the added amp first and see if it meets your needs before committing to buying an outboard amp.
post #157 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

Yes it is, actually i don't think there is any AVR that can be compared in performance. The fact i wanted to add another Amp was just for power, but may that's stupid of me.

You must have money burning a hole in your pocket. My last response to you on this thread is if you are dead set on buying an external amp, by all means get you the exact one you want. That said, socially you are not going to gain a benefit with one over that AVR that you have. I also question the fact that you say you sold a set of speakers sometime in the last week and now say you are going to be purchasing them again but that is for others to decide to comment on.
post #158 of 329
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post

You must have money burning a hole in your pocket. My last response to you on this thread is if you are dead set on buying an external amp, by all means get you the exact one you want. That said, socially you are not going to gain a benefit with one over that AVR that you have. I also question the fact that you say you sold a set of speakers sometime in the last week and now say you are going to be purchasing them again but that is for others to decide to comment on.

Is there anything wrong to sell some speakers, regret and buy them again? Don't think so...
post #159 of 329
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

It's true. You are paying for the Krell name. same with McIntosh, Parasound, Classe, all of them. Power is power, and as long as it is put together with quality components then it will do what you want it to do.

If I were you, I would see how everything performs without the amp first, then, if you think you need more power after that, then you can get an amp.

I think you're being a little too aggressive. With the huge amount of power your Susano puts out, I'm quite sure you'll find it to be more than adequate. So if you want to save a big chunk of money, listen without the added amp first and see if it meets your needs before committing to buying an outboard amp.

Yes that's what i'm going to do. Tank you so much smile.gif
post #160 of 329
I have bought and sold and then bought it again a few times. It happens....smile.gif get what you want that will make you happy. biggrin.gif. No right or wrong way in this hobby. Its only audio video after all biggrin.gif
post #161 of 329
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

I have bought and sold and then bought it again a few times. It happens....smile.gif get what you want that will make you happy. biggrin.gif. No right or wrong way in this hobby. Its only audio video after all biggrin.gif

Correct, i don't know why he is making such a problem of a simple thing.
post #162 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

Correct, i don't know why he is making such a problem of a simple thing.

Lol your not the first person to ask that question. No one knows why its a mystery to all of us wink.gif
post #163 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

Yes it is, actually i don't think there is any AVR that can be compared in performance. The fact i wanted to add another Amp was just for power, but may that's stupid of me.
Actually if you went with a speaker like the JTR, you would need very little power. I am using a 4520 with the JTR 212's and 228 center and no problems with power, to much power. I have a brand new XPA-3 disconnected at the moment because it is not needed. Personally, I don't think you would need an amp with the CM-10's if you had a high end AVR like the Onkyo 5010, Pioneer SC-07 or the Denon 4520. I ran similar Monitor Audio RX8's with a 3312 and it was fine. If you are set on an amp I would get an Outlaw amp.
post #164 of 329
Looks very nice too. In the US, ATI was the best option for me based on price. It's a great sounding amp too. Very little noise and flat response.

Usually ATI's stuff can be had for 40%-60% of retail if you buy a 'B' stock model. No way would I pay $5999 for a CINENOVA GRANDE with 7 channels, but that's just my opinion. For reference, I had a chance to buy at ATI AT3007 for $3000, but got an ATI AT2007 for $1995 instead as I really don't think I would have heard any difference between the two. I'm going to assume earthquake will negotiate on price though. If they do, I'd consider them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

What do you guys have to say about this machine? Compare to ATI AT3000 and Parasound...

http://www.earthquakesound.eu/home-audio/amplifiers/cinenova-grande.aspx
post #165 of 329
Nothing wrong with that. As long as it's Klipsch you re-buy, some of us will even understand wink.gif I've done the same thing, just not on speakers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

Is there anything wrong to sell some speakers, regret and buy them again? Don't think so...
post #166 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

Tell me something, if i had an ATI 3000 (7 Channels) it's a Fully Balanced Amplifier, and if i use the Pioneer Susano as Pre-Amp, it dies not have balanced connections. So using the Susano there is no purpose to use the ATI right? Better to use when i buy another Processor right?
I think there would be a difference. It would still cancel out some of the amplification noise. That's my understanding about what's great about having a differential amp design. I really don't think you need a new pre-amp and doubt you'd hear any difference using XLR.
post #167 of 329
To join in on the amp argument, I mean discussion
There is more to it than just a published frequency response. Like someone else alluded to a speakers impedance GREATLY changes under load. You do want an amp that can handle the additional current needed for these transients (remember V=I*Z, so if the speakers impedance lowers, current must increase to keep the desired voltage). Of course, we all know that no voltage source is ideal, which is why you do want a good amp such as the ATI AT2000 or AT3000 series, or that awesome looking the Cinenova Grande someone posted. Now, if we really knew the true specs of the Emotiva units and had an identical ATI, Earthquake, etc, I doubt we would hear a difference.

An important thing to remember in general is amplifier specifications are seldom truthful and are very hard to compare.
While ATI rates their amps with all channels driven from 20hz to 20kHz, others may rate them with only one or two channels being driven, or over different frequencies, or over a single frequency. There's also companies that do rate their amps with all channels driven (which Emotiva does do this), but they don't tell you at what frequency or over what range (which is basically useless really if you think about it). How much harder is it to drive a woofer at 20Hz compared to driving a mid-range at 8kHz? Apparently a lot harder. Think about how much less movement a midrange driver has, along with it's much smaller surface area. That means much less energy is imparted on the driver to drive it at 8kHz at the same voltage. At least I know my ATI AT2007 will really put out 300 watts into 4 ohms with all 7 channels driven, and have less than .03% THD at 20Hz. There's also a measurement called slew rate which I think is important. It measures how fast an amp responds to a transient to a voltage transient. This seems like it'd be important for high frequencies.

Without a tear-down on youtube showing the brands of components used and the quality of work, I'd never buy a Chinese made amp (IMHO). Especially for $1000+... Compared to a solid american company kind of close to the same price point (only a few hundred more in some cases), I don't see the point unless you really can't spend the extra 30-60% for an amp that has good quality capacitors, properly sized heat sinks, etc... I mean really, look at the cheap Chinese caps in this thing: http://bilder.hifi-forum.de/max/236566/emotiva-xpa-5_28749.jpg

I think they're made by Foshan No. 3 Radio, which has already changed their name, wtf!?! (see this source: http://www.powerpulse.net/story.php?storyID=5322). Of course, good luck finding any data you can trust on those caps or expecting them to last as long as a good brand. Amps do get hot, and you do want a good branded capacitor. Operating temperature greatly derates the lifetime of capacitors too, so don't forget how the heat sinks maybe undersized to save money. Any manufacturer willing to cut corners there, will cut them elsewhere too.

I also know I can measure the difference between something like the XPA-5 and my AT2007, just looking at the THD difference it is clear we can measure a difference...
post #168 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by etc6849 View Post

To join in on the amp argument, I mean discussion
There is more to it than just a published frequency response. Like someone else alluded to a speakers impedance GREATLY changes under load. You do want an amp that can handle the additional current needed for these transients (remember V=I*Z, so if the speakers impedance lowers, current must increase to keep the desired voltage). Of course, we all know that no voltage source is ideal, which is why you do want a good amp such as the ATI AT2000 or AT3000 series, or that awesome looking the Cinenova Grande someone posted. Now, if we really knew the true specs of the Emotiva units and had an identical ATI, Earthquake, etc, I doubt we would hear a difference.

An important thing to remember in general is amplifier specifications are seldom truthful and are very hard to compare.
While ATI rates their amps with all channels driven from 20hz to 20kHz, others may rate them with only one or two channels being driven, or over different frequencies, or over a single frequency. There's also companies that do rate their amps with all channels driven (which Emotiva does do this), but they don't tell you at what frequency or over what range (which is basically useless really if you think about it). How much harder is it to drive a woofer at 20Hz compared to driving a mid-range at 8kHz? Apparently a lot harder. Think about how much less movement a midrange driver has, along with it's much smaller surface area. That means much less energy is imparted on the driver to drive it at 8kHz at the same voltage. At least I know my ATI AT2007 will really put out 300 watts into 4 ohms with all 7 channels driven, and have less than .03% THD at 20Hz. There's also a measurement called slew rate which I think is important. It measures how fast an amp responds to a transient to a voltage transient. This seems like it'd be important for high frequencies.

Without a tear-down on youtube showing the brands of components used and the quality of work, I'd never buy a Chinese made amp (IMHO). Especially for $1000+... Compared to a solid american company kind of close to the same price point (only a few hundred more in some cases), I don't see the point unless you really can't spend the extra 30-60% for an amp that has good quality capacitors, properly sized heat sinks, etc... I mean really, look at the cheap Chinese caps in this thing: http://bilder.hifi-forum.de/max/236566/emotiva-xpa-5_28749.jpg

I think they're made by Foshan No. 3 Radio, which has already changed their name, wtf!?! (see this source: http://www.powerpulse.net/story.php?storyID=5322). Of course, good luck finding any data you can trust on those caps or expecting them to last as long as a good brand. Amps do get hot, and you do want a good branded capacitor. Operating temperature greatly derates the lifetime of capacitors too, so don't forget how the heat sinks maybe undersized to save money. Any manufacturer willing to cut corners there, will cut them elsewhere too.

I also know I can measure the difference between something like the XPA-5 and my AT2007, just looking at the THD difference it is clear we can measure a difference...

What's the old saying about a little knowledge being a dangerous thing? rolleyes.gif

A midrange being run at 8kHz?

And less movement at 8kHz? Of course, because the wavelength is much smaller, not because the power is lower.

Chinese made amps?

Good "brand" capacitors? (By the way, in the pic you showed, those aren't the main caps on the power supply.)

THD difference is measurable, sure, but way below audibility. That matters, doesn't it?
post #169 of 329
A little knowledge. Please, if you don't understand what I wrote, it is you who have little knowledge. Also where did I say I could hear the difference in THD, that is why I said I can measure it (maybe learn to read before jumping on someone trying to help an OP?!?).

Putting words in my mouth that I never said, along with insults. Nice! If you think those cheap off brand caps will last, you have little to no design experience in electronics. If they cut corners there, they did it elsewhere too.

As for the 8kHz thing, it was used to demonstrate that it is much easier to support a load at a higher frequency. That's why the cheap amps usually state 1kHz when they give their rating. Seldom do amps give a rating down to 20Hz like the ATI amps. Of course, if you read what I said, you should have understood this since I have such little knowledge compared to you...
Edited by etc6849 - 9/5/13 at 5:08pm
post #170 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by etc6849 View Post

A little knowledge. Please, if you don't understand what I wrote, it is you who have little knowledge. Also where did I say I could hear the difference in THD, that is why I said I can measure it (maybe learn to read before jumping on someone trying to help an OP?!?).

Putting words in my mouth that I never said, along with insults. Nice! If you think those cheap off brand caps will last, you have little to no design experience in electronics. If they cut corners there, they did it elsewhere too.

Uhm, so what midranges run at 8kHz?

In my experience, all caps are cheap and off-brand. But that's just a matter of perspective. And brand has nothing to do with reliability, the data for which is readily available to the design engineer.

And the underlined part is especially funny. I'll let you try to figure out why. biggrin.gif
post #171 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by etc6849 View Post

A little knowledge. Please, if you don't understand what I wrote, it is you who have little knowledge. Also where did I say I could hear the difference in THD, that is why I said I can measure it (maybe learn to read before jumping on someone trying to help an OP?!?).

Putting words in my mouth that I never said, along with insults. Nice! If you think those cheap off brand caps will last, you have little to no design experience in electronics. If they cut corners there, they did it elsewhere too.

As for the 8kHz thing, it was used to demonstrate that it is much easier to support a load at a higher frequency. That's why the cheap amps usually state 1kHz when they give their rating. Seldom do amps give a rating down to 20Hz like the ATI amps. Of course, if you read what I said, you should have understood this since I have such little knowledge compared to you...

I noticed you edited your post after I had replied.

The 8kHz thing is a poor example, as I noted. 1) because 8kHz is well into tweeter territory, not midrange 2) because you implied that the power was related to how much the cone moves, which isn't really true unless you're talking about one frequency. When you compare 20Hz to 8kHz, the cone movement difference is because of the wavelength, not the power. 3) Some speakers have relatively lower impedances at higher frequencies than at lower frequencies. The reason power is more heavily used/required in the lower ranges is because that's where there is more music signal. By 8kHz you're well into higher harmonics, and there is little spectral energy there.

Secondly, amp ratings are for a given impedance. It's just as easy for an amp to do 80watts into 8 Ohms at 20Hz as it is for the amp to do 80 watts into 8 Ohms at 8kHz. But it's not as easy to do 80 watts into 3 Ohms at 100 Hz as it is to do 80 watts into 8 Ohms at 8kHz. See the difference?

You might have been genuinely trying to help the OP, and I'll agree I was a jerk, but you misled him more than you helped, so I pointed that out, however crudely.
post #172 of 329
Because you post insulting stuff (after not fully reading my post) I'm supposed to "try" and figure something out? As if my "little" brain just can't do it? Whatever, it's not even worth my time figuring out who you are.

For the OP: google Emotiva and cheap capacitors. I'm not the first to notice this and point it out.

It is obvious all electrolytic capacitors will wear out (no kidding). I'm just saying some off brand Chinese caps do not wear as well, especially being right beside a heatsink. If you go on any electronics design forum most folks will tell you the same thing.

I'm done talking to beaveav (too many rude folks on here noways), good thing there's a block button.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

I'll let you try to figure out why. biggrin.gif
post #173 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

I noticed you edited your post after I had replied.

The 8kHz thing is a poor example, as I noted. 1) because 8kHz is well into tweeter territory, not midrange 2) because you implied that the power was related to how much the cone moves, which isn't really true unless you're talking about one frequency. When you compare 20Hz to 8kHz, the cone movement difference is because of the wavelength, not the power. 3) Some speakers have relatively lower impedances at higher frequencies than at lower frequencies. The reason power is more heavily used/required in the lower ranges is because that's where there is more music signal. By 8kHz you're well into higher harmonics, and there is little spectral energy there.

Secondly, amp ratings are for a given impedance. It's just as easy for an amp to do 80watts into 8 Ohms at 20Hz as it is for the amp to do 80 watts into 8 Ohms at 8kHz. But it's not as easy to do 80 watts into 3 Ohms at 100 Hz as it is to do 80 watts into 8 Ohms at 8kHz. See the difference?

You might have been genuinely trying to help the OP, and I'll agree I was a jerk, but you misled him more than you helped, so I pointed that out, however crudely.

Pretty sure the 8k was meant as an example vs 20hz. Thats how i read it anyways. And he's right emo measures at 1khz. Emo has good value but for the price we know they are definitely cutting some corners.
post #174 of 329
Looks like I hit a nerve. That happens a lot when wanna-be experts get called out for posting misleading info. wink.gif

I fully read your post. That's why I replied as I did and corrected some of the misinformation you provided. You don't like that? Fine with me. But maybe others will appreciate it.

You seem to be stuck on the notion that "off-brand" caps wear out faster than "name brand" caps. What you fail to realize is that wearing out has little to do with the name on the cap and more to do with its specifications and how it is used. You were half-right that heat is a factor, but some caps are spec'd to be able to handle higher heat environments than others. Being right next to a heatsink may increase the ambient temp around the cap, but what if the engineers accounted for that in their selection of the cap? What's more, any competent engineering company will do design for reliability and will do calculations to approximate the mean lifetime of the product. They'll likely also do testing in a heat chamber, where they can stress the unit-under-test at high and low temps, high and low humidities, etc, to approximate accelerated lifetime.

Only companies that are more into marketing what brand of caps they use care about the name of the brand on the caps. Engineers don't care about the name when they design the product. Furthermore, pretty much all caps come from China these days, and some even from the same factories, even when one is a "name brand" and one isn't.
post #175 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

Pretty sure the 8k was meant as an example vs 20hz. Thats how i read it anyways. And he's right emo measures at 1khz. Emo has good value but for the price we know they are definitely cutting some corners.

Yeah, I get that it was meant as an example, but it was a poor example, and his explanation for it was incorrect. So I corrected it.

And so what if Emotiva measures at 1kHz? It's the impedance that they measure into that is more important.

How do we know they're "cutting corners?" And compared to what? Their product does what it's supposed to do, and does it sufficiently well to be audibly transparent and capable of powering most loads, so what is to be gained by not "cutting corners?" In fact I think the argument could be made that if anything, they could stand to cut a lot more corners. But they have found their market niche ("we're better than cheap AVRs but we're cheaper than other high-end separates"), so they do what they do.

If somebody has some actual data showing Emotiva amps have a relatively poor MTBF, feel free to show it.
post #176 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by etc6849 View Post

Because you post insulting stuff (after not fully reading my post) I'm supposed to "try" and figure something out? As if my "little" brain just can't do it? Whatever, it's not even worth my time figuring out who you are.

For the OP: google Emotiva and cheap capacitors. I'm not the first to notice this and point it out.

It is obvious all electrolytic capacitors will wear out (no kidding). I'm just saying some off brand Chinese caps do not wear as well, especially being right beside a heatsink. If you go on any electronics design forum most folks will tell you the same thing.

I'm done talking to beaveav (too many rude folks on here noways), good thing there's a block button.
Of course the heat sink is next to the caps, where did you think it would be?

Here's why all good amps sound the same:

http://www.roger-russell.com/truth/truth.htm#goodamplifiers
post #177 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

Yeah, I get that it was meant as an example, but it was a poor example, and his explanation for it was incorrect. So I corrected it.

And so what if Emotiva measures at 1kHz? It's the impedance that they measure into that is more important.

How do we know they're "cutting corners?" And compared to what? Their product does what it's supposed to do, and does it sufficiently well to be audibly transparent and capable of powering most loads, so what is to be gained by not "cutting corners?" In fact I think the argument could be made that if anything, they could stand to cut a lot more corners. But they have found their market niche ("we're better than cheap AVRs but we're cheaper than other high-end separates"), so they do what they do.

If somebody has some actual data showing Emotiva amps have a relatively poor MTBF, feel free to show it.

Ya ya emo is the greatest ever i get it. NOT!. I have owned two emo amps (xpa-5 and a upa-200). The first was the xpa-5 it had really bad static and hiss that you could hear from 10ft away. I called them and they blamed my speakers for being to sensitive. Funny i got rid of the static by running a long run to another outlet but still had hiss (no help from emo by the way). The upa-200 was a pile of junk. It also had really bad static and hiss. But this amp i couldn't get the static out so had to pay out of my pocket to send it back. Two amps both with major issues out of the box. My new amp just a tiny bit of hiss zero static same spot same system. Im glad you love your emo but they are what they cost (cheap). biggrin.gif
post #178 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Of course the heat sink is next to the caps, where did you think it would be?

Here's why all good amps sound the same:

http://www.roger-russell.com/truth/truth.htm#goodamplifiers

just silly eek.gif lol tongue.gif
post #179 of 329
Reference_head question about the static and noise, did you use the balance inputs?
post #180 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post

Reference_head question about the static and noise, did you use the balance inputs?

No un-balanced. I have read it helps to use balanced but my pre does not have xlr. I did like the xpa-5 after i got the static out (and that was not easy almost sent it back after i called them). Sounded way better than just an avr for sure.

Im not saying two amps cant sound the same but all the different amps i have owned do. Even the two emo amps i had sounded different (the xpa-5 was more refined than the upa-200). You read all the time the xpa-2 sounds more refined than the xpa-5. But then someone posts all amps sound the same. Its just silly but what ever biggrin.gif
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