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Trade Klipsch Reference RF-7II.... for B&W CM10 is a good decision? - Page 2

post #31 of 329
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

For HT use yes, but I have yet to hear JTR system that sounds really good for music in stereo.

For me it's purely for Home Theater. Can you recommend any setup?
I am at their website and it's confusing....

Are these "horn technology" as Klipsch? Are they as good as Klipsch?
post #32 of 329
The 212 or 228 are truly awesome for both movie and music. I have heard them both. Very hard to beat for the price.
post #33 of 329
Thread Starter 
I just ordered the THX Ultra 2 from Klipsch, and paid around $10000, wish i could see this earlier...

For my Living Room i cannot put those speakers, because everything must go with the decoration, so Klipsch RF-7II or B&W would be good.

Anyway tomorrow i will talk to the dealer to ask if he has ordered them already to Klipsch. But in my Country i believe it's impossible to listen to them....
post #34 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

For HT use yes, but I have yet to hear JTR system that sounds really good for music in stereo.

Yes and they are ugly. Great behind a screen but not something I would put in a living room.
post #35 of 329
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

Yes and they are ugly. Great behind a screen but not something I would put in a living room.

How do you compare them to Klipsch THX Ultra 2 for Cinema?
post #36 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

I just ordered the THX Ultra 2 from Klipsch, and paid around $10000, wish i could see this earlier...

For my Living Room i cannot put those speakers, because everything must go with the decoration, so Klipsch RF-7II or B&W would be good.

Anyway tomorrow i will talk to the dealer to ask if he has ordered them already to Klipsch. But in my Country i believe it's impossible to listen to them....

Wow 10k seems really high. I hope you like it.
post #37 of 329
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

Wow 10k seems really high. I hope you like it.

Considering today...maybe i would go for something different like B&W 800 Series...guess the Home Theater would be better...
post #38 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

How do you compare them to Klipsch THX Ultra 2 for Cinema?
I personally think the rf-7ll system is just as good. But I have never had the thx in my home. only the store a few years ago. JTR I have never heard but I bet they sound awesome.
From a design JTR is doing what klipsch has been doing for over 60 years. If you go to klipsch pro gear section on there web sight you will see very similar speaker designs that are way bigger and better than JTR. It's just people normally would never put that type of speakers in there homes (ugly and unfinished looking).
What JTR owners are finding is that same sound Klipsch owners have been loving for years (high end klipsch). Most of them probably have no idea that this design is klipsch 101. I would totally look at JTR for speakers behind a screen for only movies. I'm sure they are amazing.
post #39 of 329
post #40 of 329
Thread Starter 

They can play like hell, but speakers like that, only hidden... smile.gif

Tomorrow i will speak with the Klpsch Dealer, and also go to B&W Dealer for a try... at the first i went to listen to C&M Speakers, and i will. But then i want to see the difference between them and the 800's.
post #41 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by sweet87 View Post

Stick with klipsch, i've got the klipsch reference series and they're premium quality and sound. they're not america's no 1 audio brand for nothing!!smile.gif

Lots of great brands out there. Over the many years i have had lots of great speakers like jbl,old high end polk audio, infinity, speakerlab. old 90s kef, tons of different klipsch old and new, and even some old bose 901. They all offer some good things but none are perfect.

I would say speakerlab and the higher end klipsch are the best so far. But for movies klipsch steals the show biggrin.gif
post #42 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

Yes and they are ugly. Great behind a screen but not something I would put in a living room.

The custom veneered options that Jeff offers on his JTR speakers make then look just as good as anything Klipsch has to offer.
post #43 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

For HT use yes, but I have yet to hear JTR system that sounds really good for music in stereo.

Have you heard any of the newer Noesis line of speakers from JTR? or are you basing this comment off of the older speakers?

I just curious as to which JTR speakers that you've heard?
post #44 of 329
Does anyone have a detailed picture on the horn loaded tweeter used in the RF-7II's?

I'd like to see one to get a better idea of the quality used in the RF-7II's. I'm seen pictures on the 10" drivers used in them but nothing on the tweeter.
post #45 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Does anyone have a detailed picture on the horn loaded tweeter used in the RF-7II's?

I'd like to see one to get a better idea of the quality used in the RF-7II's. I'm seen pictures on the 10" drivers used in them but nothing on the tweeter.


Its a 1.75" driver crossover at 1200hz



post #46 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

Its a 1.75" driver crossover at 1200hz




Thanks for the picture, I knew that it was a 1.75" driver, that info was easy to find but I wasn't able to find an actually picture of the driver.
post #47 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

The custom veneered options that Jeff offers on his JTR speakers make then look just as good as anything Klipsch has to offer.

In the few pics i have seen i would say they look better but still nothing great. Klipsch isn't the greatest finishes in the world either biggrin.gif. Its just not where the money goes when building the speaker.


JTR seems regarded as ugly just like klipsch is regarded as bright. Not everyone agrees but it is what it is. I really don't think they were going for awesome looks. If they were they wouldn't look like pa speakers.biggrin.gif

I will take awesome sound over high end wood finishes.
post #48 of 329
Both brands share the same design concepts. I would love a demo of some big jtr speakers some day. Im sure they are really amazing biggrin.gif
post #49 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by sweet87 View Post

Stick with klipsch, i've got the klipsch reference series and they're premium quality and sound. they're not america's no 1 audio brand for nothing!!smile.gif
Because they can afford more advertising than the lesser known brands? Klipsch can't touch JTR for home theater.
post #50 of 329
I think it depends on your room layout. If you don't want to hang speakers, get the RF-82's. I bought a pair of RF-82's for $500 about 5 years ago to use as surrounds as the place was having a half off sale for Thanksgiving. I hooked them up and I was very very impressed with the speakers. They didn't sound quite as good as my RF-83's, but I wonder if I could tell the difference.

After I bought my RF-82's, I later bought the RS-62's during another half off sale (I really am glad I moved far away from all the audio shops). I still use the RF-82's for rear speakers and the RS-62's for side. The tweeters are identical according to folks online (don't know about the series II) and sounded identical to me. So did the mid-range, which is probably all you need for surround. If you plan to use all channel stereo, I say get the RF-82's. It is nice having two tweeters for each surround speaker, but if you can point the RF-82's directly at the listener, it really doesn't matter.

Of course, you do need a nice amp to drive the heavier Klipsch speakers. The best deal in the states is probably the ATI AT2007 from classicaudioparts.com (call them for price). The Klipsch's sensitivity ratings are due to the horn loaded tweeter, not the massive woofers. My RF-83's have 3 very heavy woofers/speaker. With massive woofers like the RF-7's have, you may need more power than what a typical A/V receiver has.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

Everyone tank you so much, i value everyone opinion here, and the only thing i Let's say i keep with Klipsch and order a new set as i had. I had the RF-82II for Back Surrounds. Should i keep these or the RS-62II are enough? My only concern is that floor standing speakers in the back are partially cover by the coutch. My couch is covering 70 to 80% of the speaker, and i think the sound is loss because it goes alot to the side if the coutch.
post #51 of 329
I'm sure they are similar. The JTR site is very hard to navigate though. I wish they had a summary listing or a comparison chart. Maybe pictures would be nice too for some of their speakers?!? Also, does JTR make their own drivers?

Regardless, the Noesis 228HT's probably do sound good if you have a few subs. However, they are similarly priced to what my RF-83's were selling for back when I bought them. I definitely would stick with Klipsch. Noesis 228HT's 70Hz is kind of 3dB low cut off frequency IMHO. Says a lot for the quality of 8" driver they are using? They wouldn't sound as good for 2-channel music that's for sure.

I wish a local place had some JTR stuff on display as I would listen, but I seriously doubt they're any better than my Klipsch setup. Which is the number two reason why people buy Klispch over JTR (nothing to do with advertising)... The number one reason is probably most folks don't have a separate system just for music, and need a best of both worlds type system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Because they can afford more advertising than the lesser known brands? Klipsch can't touch JTR for home theater.
post #52 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

My only concern is that floor standing speakers in the back are partially cover by the coutch. .

I use similar sized RF-3s as surrounds and what I did was purchase a couple of cheap wooden step-stools to get their horns at the same height as my front RF-7s and then used granite floor tiles around the stool to make it more attractive...
post #53 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by etc6849 View Post

I'm sure they are similar. The JTR site is very hard to navigate though. I wish they had a summary listing or a comparison chart. Maybe pictures would be nice too for some of their speakers?!? Also, does JTR make their own drivers?

Regardless, the Noesis 228HT's probably do sound good if you have a few subs. However, they are similarly priced to what my RF-83's were selling for back when I bought them. I definitely would stick with Klipsch. Noesis 228HT's 70Hz is kind of 3dB low cut off frequency IMHO. Says a lot for the quality of 8" driver they are using? They wouldn't sound as good for 2-channel music that's for sure.

I wish a local place had some JTR stuff on display as I would listen, but I seriously doubt they're any better than my Klipsch setup. Which is the number two reason why people buy Klispch over JTR (nothing to do with advertising)... The number one reason is probably most folks don't have a separate system just for music, and need a best of both worlds type system.

The 228HT's are designed to be used with a sub, even the 212HT's which use 12" drivers are 100% designed to used with subs. I'd put the quality of the drivers used in the JTR's up against any of the quality parts used in Klipsch speakers. Hell the compression driver used in the 212HT lists for $700 by itself.

I have heard a complete Ultra 2 setup at a buddy's place and I've heard RF-7II's with a RC-64. I could have easily bought eight of those setups and I'd still take my three 228HT's as a LCR setup any time over those two.

I'm not the type to keep something just because I bought so I have to like it. If I didn't think they sounded better I would sell them and go with something's else.

The only downside of JTR speakers is you pretty much buy them on a leap of faith unless you luck out and have someone around you that you can have a listen too.
post #54 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by etc6849 View Post

I'm sure they are similar. The JTR site is very hard to navigate though. I wish they had a summary listing or a comparison chart. Maybe pictures would be nice too for some of their speakers?!? Also, does JTR make their own drivers?

Regardless, the Noesis 228HT's probably do sound good if you have a few subs. However, they are similarly priced to what my RF-83's were selling for back when I bought them. I definitely would stick with Klipsch. Noesis 228HT's 70Hz is kind of 3dB low cut off frequency IMHO. Says a lot for the quality of 8" driver they are using? They wouldn't sound as good for 2-channel music that's for sure.

I wish a local place had some JTR stuff on display as I would listen, but I seriously doubt they're any better than my Klipsch setup. Which is the number two reason why people buy Klispch over JTR (nothing to do with advertising)... The number one reason is probably most folks don't have a separate system just for music, and need a best of both worlds type system.

The cutoff has nothing to do with the quality of driver. It has everything to do with designing a speaker to do something relly well, and then letting the subs handle the low stuff. That way you don't need nearly as much amplification. If you're not aware, the standard THX crossover freq is 80Hz anyway.
post #55 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by rongon View Post

OK, here I go... Sorry if I rub anybody the wrong way. I really don't mean to.

Klipsch speakers raise high passions in those who love them. I will say this -- they are idiosyncratic. If you love Klipsch speakers, you love them. If you don't, you tend to want to run from the room screaming.

I would love to love horn speakers, and I'm still trying to. I've heard Klipschorns (great!), Altec A7's (almost as great), owned RF3's (almost good enough, but that hot upper midrange and lower treble grew tiring), auditioned Heresy's (HATE them), also heard Tangent 400's (there's that hot upper midrange again) and KLF-30's (reminded me a lot of Heresy). I also own a pair of KG4.5's (great for cheap, but they are made from very cheap parts, and sound it), which I've taken apart and am using to build new speakers in.

Since you seem to love horns, and you're in Europe (I think), I'll suggest you check out Tannoy. I have owned a pair of Tannoy T185 Dorset since about 1995. I also got a pair of System 8 NFM near-field monitors along the way. A friend has a pair of classic Little Gold Monitors which I've heard quite a bit of. I'd say the Tannoy 'house sound' is sort of near-Klipsch in intensity and impact, but with a good helping of British politeness to the sound. I haven't heard any new-production Tannoy speakers, but they are a great company that makes good stuff. Well worth checking out, especially if you are in Europe. Tannoy stuff is overpriced here, while Klipsch stuff tends to be much more expensive in Europe than it is here in the US. The Tannoy Definition line is their upper-mid line. The Revolution line is their more budget-friendly line. The Prestige line is for lords and earls.

I'd say B&W sound more on the tightly controlled and 'accurate' side than Tannoy or (most certainly!) Klipsch. However, if you are a die-hard Klipsch fan, just get bigger Klipsch's. They are fun, kick-butt speakers. I sometimes miss those RF3s. I got them cheap, just to hear them, and I did like them almost enough to keep them -- and this was for hifi, not for HT.


--


Have you heard the Palladium line-up?

I'll put the Klipsch Palladium speakers up against anything in their price range. The P 39's are a bit overpriced, but the p37's and p38's are just outstanding.

They do have their own sound signature, as most speakers do. They are incredibly dynamic and accurate, they are forward sounding, they image left to right incredibly well, and from a depth of image perspective are solid (though it's not their biggest strength). They image outside their location also (where I find many to only image between the speakers).

If you like rock guitar, drum's they are incredible and they do everything else quite well. I also will disagree with those that feel B+W's are laid back. The 800 series also are very midrange forward and take gobs of power to sound good (though they do sound nice).

I wouldn't call them bright, though like anything it's all about pairing electronics and speakers. Street prices on the Palladiums are also decent.

I recently updated my HT/Stereo for the first time in over a decade, I did a lot of listening and for me it came down to Paradigm Signatures, Klipsch Palladiums and some used B+W 802s (not the diamonds). Both are really excellent speakers (I also did check out a lot of other brands, a lot of small companies as I like to support the little guys).

But I also admit I'm a rock and roll guy and listen to a lot of blues, that said just about everything sounds great on them. I'm also not one to say other speakers don't do other things better (I think a good ribbon tweeter does do a bit better job in imaging depth than the klipsch or paradigms for that matter) but the trade off for me were some dynamics and the size of the soundstage.

That said, the Klipsch Palladium line-up is really worth a listen and may change minds about Klipsch for the upper end. They retain the dynamics and excitement that klipsch always have but really up the accuracy and eliminate the blat that many complain of with Klipsch.
post #56 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

If you're not aware, the standard THX crossover freq is 80Hz anyway.

Of course I'm aware of the 80Hz THX cutoff?!? Seriously? I've been a member here since 2006 and you don't think I know basic crap like that - how insulting?!? That's why my post said for 2 channel music listening. If you want to use the recommended THX settings, up to you. There's nothing wrong with doing either.

That said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with using the 29Hz 3dB point of my RF-83's as I have an amp big enough to drive them (ATI AT2007). If anything, it improves the room's low frequency response, as does having two Klipsch RT-12d subs instead of one. I know because I used one sub for a long time until I picked up another on ebay. This really helped my room's modal resonances. I even verified this with RoomEQ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

The 228HT's are designed to be used with a sub, even the 212HT's which use 12" drivers are 100% designed to used with subs. I'd put the quality of the drivers used in the JTR's up against any of the quality parts used in Klipsch speakers. Hell the compression driver used in the 212HT lists for $700 by itself.

I have heard a complete Ultra 2 setup at a buddy's place and I've heard RF-7II's with a RC-64. I could have easily bought eight of those setups and I'd still take my three 228HT's as a LCR setup any time over those two.

I didn't pay MSRP (if you're using that as a comparison you could probably buy 16 systems like mine congratulations!?!), so my Klipsch setup was cheaper than what JTR is asking for their Noesis 228HT. However, I seriously doubt your system sounds any better than mine. I'm not sure what your friend was driving his RF-7's with, room treatments, etc... I'd rather have the extra frequency response than to not have it though, whether I use it or not. After all, you can always change the cutoff in your preamp.

No doubt the Noesis 212HT might be great. Keep in mind it costs three times more than I paid for my RF-83's!?! However, without a way to audition them, who is ever going to pay $2199 for one?!? Seems like a lot of risk on a very expensive purchase, especially considering the OP is in Europe and shipping them is even more $$$. A lot of gear is hyped on here, but none that I have ever seen in any shop to try out, so I'm likely not going to buy it.

It's nothing to do with advertising at all, but solely based on how folks shop for certain types of items. Would you seriously fork out $10,000+ on a speaker system without trying it out? What about forking $10000 on a used car without driving it? Seems pretty crazy to me. Ultimately it's up to the purchaser to decide how to buy something. If JTR was smart, they'd pay folks who purchase their products to show them to others. Maybe have an online database of willing participants. Then I'd go and listen because I like checking other gear out, but I still wouldn't buy as I'm 100% satisfied with my system.

I do like that JTR is made in the US and that alone would have helped me to consider them if they had a local presence back in 2007-2008 when I was speaker shopping. The Chinese Emotiva touted here: not so much as their pricing is too close to the special pricing of american made ATI amps.
post #57 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by green giant View Post

Have you heard the Palladium line-up?

I'll put the Klipsch Palladium speakers up against anything in their price range. The P 39's are a bit overpriced, but the p37's and p38's are just outstanding...

.

I have never heard the Palladiums but imagine they sound quite nice considering the price...That said, it's interesting that Klipsch puts so much information on their specs and not so much the lower end lines...It is also interesting they label the P-37 as a "4 Ohm" speaker with a 96 db/1 meter Sensitivity rating and actually give what they recommend as sufficient power to drive them, whereas the RF-7IIs are rated at "8 Ohm Compatible" with a Sensitivity of 101 dB/1 meter...That said I wonder which is easier to drive?
post #58 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by etc6849 View Post

I didn't pay MSRP (if you're using that as a comparison you could probably buy 16 systems like mine congratulations!?!), so my Klipsch setup was cheaper than what JTR is asking for their Noesis 228HT. However, I seriously doubt your system sounds any better than mine. I'm not sure what your friend was driving his RF-7's with, room treatments, etc... I'd rather have the extra frequency response than to not have it though, whether I use it or not. After all, you can always change the cutoff in your preamp.

No doubt the Noesis 212HT might be great. Keep in mind it costs three times more than I paid for my RF-83's!?! However, without a way to audition them, who is ever going to pay $2199 for one?!? Seems like a lot of risk on a very expensive purchase, especially considering the OP is in Europe and shipping them is even more $$$. A lot of gear is hyped on here, but none that I have ever seen in any shop to try out, so I'm likely not going to buy it.

It's nothing to do with advertising at all, but solely based on how folks shop for certain types of items. Would you seriously fork out $10,000+ on a speaker system without trying it out? What about forking $10000 on a used car without driving it? Seems pretty crazy to me. Ultimately it's up to the purchaser to decide how to buy something. If JTR was smart, they'd pay folks who purchase their products to show them to others. Maybe have an online database of willing participants. Then I'd go and listen because I like checking other gear out, but I still wouldn't buy as I'm 100% satisfied with my system.

I do like that JTR is made in the US and that alone would have helped me to consider them if they had a local presence back in 2007-2008 when I was speaker shopping. The Chinese Emotiva touted here: not so much as their pricing is too close to the special pricing of american made ATI amps.

I would hope you wouldn't pay MSRP on anything that has the Klipsch name to it. I heard the RF-7's being used with a PR-SC5509 and powered by a PA-MC5501 amp along with room treatments. The extra frequency response that they provide over the 228HT's means nothing to me though as my setup is strictly for movie use with my subs. It that situation the RF-7's extra frequency does them no good.

The smartest thing Jeff from JTR goes is going around to the different GTG's that get put on by forum members to try out multiple speakers. If you read any GTG thread that Jeff has attended his speakers tend to be the main attraction and even non-believers in his products tend to come away with a different perspective. It is tough to hear his speakers but I can honestly say that anyone who's serious about HT speakers needs to do themselves a favour and try to find a way to hear them.
post #59 of 329
Etc, no need to get your feathers ruffled.
post #60 of 329
Yeah, I have to say that I find most Klipsch owners very passionate about their speakers, but that's a good thing and a bad thing. Bad because when someone suggests something could sound better it tends to really ruffle some feathers as flying_fool put it.

I have never said I didn't like Klipsch speakers, I do quite like them. But I just like my 228HT's better, and I urge everyone to try and hear some of the new Noesis line of speakers from JTR before they are quick to judge and try to say there's no way that they can sound better then Klipsch speakers.
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